Soapbox defenders of Capitalism-attention

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

No, he chooses not to explain to you. It's different.

So, will you still be at work at five past 4?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just like you choose to not to explain to others about how a lack of government works. In fact you choose to not answers lots of things when your ideas are questioned.

I will be at work for as long as I want. I may leave at 4 as it is not actually raining yet so can go for a blast around the forest.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Just like you choose to not to explain to others...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not others; just you.

You're special.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

What do you mean "no you haven't."

I do read NickMs replies.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you? well you dont read mine very well
Where have I said that?

reading skills 1/10 [:)]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

redcogs · June 2007

Uncle Fred said that humanity "must first of all eat, drink, have shelter and clothing before it can pursue science, art, religion, etc".

This seems to me to recognise the importance of labour for society. Working is simply a means to an end, the end being the ability to feel the freedom of being in control of your own life once your working day/week is completed, and thereafter, to be able to engage in creative liberationary activities such as cycling, painting, knitting, or even straightforwardly sitting and contemplating if you want.

The problem comes with being forced into capitalist circumstances of having to be chained to the machine for ever longer periods, witnessing the fruits of your labour being stolen by boss class exploiters, who greedily pile up the cash and never stop twisting the screw. Its surely obvious that the more time we can spend doing the latter, the creative leisure stuff, and the less time we engage in the former, the necessary stuff for eating etc, the better off we should all be.

The conclusion is inescapable, shorter working hours, earlier retirement, more fulfilled lives. Democratic equalitarian collectivism.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

What do you mean "no you haven't."

I do read NickMs replies.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you? well you dont read mine very well
Where have I said that?

reading skills 1/10 [:)]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So that means you have run your ideas past the majority of people then? That must have taken some time...

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Just like you choose to not to explain to others...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not others; just you.

You're special.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It was others who asked you how the lack of government works. Guess they are special too. In fact anyone who asks you a question you can't answer is special. Lots of special people.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Uncle Fred said that humanity "must first of all eat, drink, have shelter and clothing before it can pursue science, art, religion, etc".

This seems to me to recognise the importance of labour for society. Working is simply a means to an end, the end being the ability to feel the freedom of being in control of your own life once your working day/week is completed, and thereafter, to be able to engage in creative liberationary activities such as cycling, painting, knitting, or even straightforwardly sitting and contemplating if you want.

The problem comes with being forced into capitalist circumstances of having to be chained to the machine for ever longer periods, witnessing the fruits of your labour being stolen by boss class exploiters, who greedily pile up the cash and never stop twisting the screw. Its surely obvious that the more time we can spend doing the latter, the creative leisure stuff, and the less time we engage in the former, the necessary stuff for eating etc, the better off we should all be.

The conclusion is inescapable, shorter working hours, earlier retirement, more fulfilled lives. Democratic equalitarian collectivism.

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

For those that have to work (realise you are someone that doesn't) they have invented a thing called part time if a lower number of hours are what is required. Just a case of learning how to live on less money. I know people who live on œ20k per year (yes really) so I should be able to go part time and still survive. I will have more time to myself and therefore be much happier.

What you have failed to consider is that some people may actually get fulfillment from work isn't it?

Unkraut · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs
[
The problem comes with being forced into capitalist circumstances of having to be chained to the machine for ever longer periods, witnessing the fruits of your labour being stolen by boss class exploiters, who greedily pile up the cash and never stop twisting the screw.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You would have to be blind to say that exploitation is not a feature of capitalism, but this analysis comes from Marx and is based on the Victorian capitalism of about 150 years ago. Things have changed meanwhile, so this analysis needs to be amended. It is too simplistic a 'them and us' class divide, and is not the whole truth regarding capitalism.

redcogs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
For those that have to work (realise you are someone that doesn't) they have invented a thing called part time if a lower number of hours are what is required. Just a case of learning how to live on less money. I know people who live on œ20k per year (yes really) so I should be able to go part time and still survive. I will have more time to myself and therefore be much happier.

What you have failed to consider is that some people may actually get fulfillment from work isn't it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i do work Joe, i'm an unpaid house parent. It doesn't surprise me that you should undervalue the type of work i engage in, i put it down to your stereotypical mode of thinking, amply demonstrated in the entirety of this thread.

i don't assume that you are one of the exploitative bullying managers who have become so predominant since Thatcher f ucked the trade unions over, but i may have to revise my opinion if you don't stop the insults.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

It was others who asked you how the lack of government works. Guess they are special too. In fact anyone who asks you a question you can't answer is special. Lots of special people.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh, but I can answer; there appear, however, to be some people (not so very many) who don't really want answers. I oblige them by not supplying answers that they will not appreciate.

Now, what was the last book you read?

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

It was others who asked you how the lack of government works. Guess they are special too. In fact anyone who asks you a question you can't answer is special. Lots of special people.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh, but I can answer; there appear, however, to be some people (not so very many) who don't really want answers. I oblige them by not supplying answers that they will not appreciate.

Now, what was the last book you read?

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes of course you can. I don't read books, does that make me bad?

redcogs · June 2007

Ha - some read books, others cook them.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
For those that have to work (realise you are someone that doesn't) they have invented a thing called part time if a lower number of hours are what is required. Just a case of learning how to live on less money. I know people who live on œ20k per year (yes really) so I should be able to go part time and still survive. I will have more time to myself and therefore be much happier.

What you have failed to consider is that some people may actually get fulfillment from work isn't it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i do work Joe, i'm an unpaid house parent. It doesn't surprise me that you should undervalue the type of work i engage in, i put it down to your stereotypical mode of thinking, amply demonstrated in the entirety of this thread.

i don't assume that you are one of the exploitative bullying managers who have become so predominant since Thatcher f ucked the trade unions over, but i may have to revise my opinion if you don't stop the insults.

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am far from a bullying manager. Apologies for the insult, I know looking after kids is work. What I meant was not working for someone else, i.e one of the 'workers'.

There is a part time option and there are people who enjoy working for companies. Takes all sorts.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

My questions you <s>ignored</s> forgot to read on page 10 still remain unanswered Joe:

Are you saying that maximising profits for shareholders has no connection to the animals abuse?
...or that in doing so they are not adhering to principals you hold dear?

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

redcogs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
For those that have to work (realise you are someone that doesn't) they have invented a thing called part time if a lower number of hours are what is required. Just a case of learning how to live on less money. I know people who live on œ20k per year (yes really) so I should be able to go part time and still survive. I will have more time to myself and therefore be much happier.

What you have failed to consider is that some people may actually get fulfillment from work isn't it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i do work Joe, i'm an unpaid house parent. It doesn't surprise me that you should undervalue the type of work i engage in, i put it down to your stereotypical mode of thinking, amply demonstrated in the entirety of this thread.

i don't assume that you are one of the exploitative bullying managers who have become so predominant since Thatcher f ucked the trade unions over, but i may have to revise my opinion if you don't stop the insults.

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I am far from a bullying manager. Apologies for the insult, I know looking after kids is work. What I meant was not working for someone else, i.e one of the 'workers'.

There is a part time option and there are people who enjoy working for companies. Takes all sorts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No problem Joe. i'm probably a bit sensitive on the issue. For the record, i worked as a proper wage labourer for many years. My last job was with a trade union which represented a significant industrial workforce, so i do have some valid insights, although i would accept that the world of work has changed somewhat. But not in its fundamentals.

[:)]

please look up to the stars.. ***

Gary Askwith · June 2007

If you want to start reading books joe, you need to start at the appropiate level:[:p][:)]

[url][/url]http://www.xanadubooks.co.uk/images/book5579.jpg[url][/url]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

My questions you <s>ignored</s> forgot to read on page 10 still remain unanswered Joe:

Are you saying that maximising profits for shareholders has no connection to the animals abuse?
...or that in doing so they are not adhering to principals you hold dear?

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I didn't forget or ignore it. I answered it as follows;

"That's easy Gary. I am in favour of capitalism, but that doesn't mean I am in favour of a company abusing animals. If someone was to set up a slave trading company I would not be in favour of that either.
Are you saying that animal abuse would not happen in your socialist thing?"

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

If you want to start reading books joe, you need to start at the appropiate level:[:p][:)]

[url][/url]http://www.xanadubooks.co.uk/images/book5579.jpg[url][/url]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, I am ready for lots of abuse after stating that I don't read books. Go on, fire away.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

I don't read books, does that make me bad?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't know.

But it might account for a lack of imagination.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

Smeggers · June 2007

Joe, if you dont read books etc, how have you become so literate and opinionated?

Purely through the visual arts, telly, internet etc?

Books give you a depth of knowledge that other media forms can not get near too, and therefore undermine the credence of your strongly held "speeding" and "animal rights" views?

Or is that just me

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

I don't read books, does that make me bad?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't know.

But it might account for a lack of imagination.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not sure why books would expand imagination. Knowledge sure, but imagination?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smeggers

Joe, if you dont read books etc, how have you become so literate and opinionated?

Purely through the visual arts, telly, internet etc?

Books give you a depth of knowledge that other media forms can not get near too, and therefore undermine the credence of your strongly held "speeding" and "animal rights" views?

Or is that just me

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You do not need to read books to care about animals.

I am not saying that I have never read books, just not for a while. When I did read it was fiction anyway so that wouldn't count towards increasing depth of knowledge.

Smeggers · June 2007

OK Joe, now go away and read 'Animal Farm', '1984' and 'Clockwork Orange' (all fiction) and come back and tell me how you feel about politics?

Thats the trouble with issues such as religion, animal rights etc, they let "feelings" get in the way of truth.

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

Mister Paul · June 2007

The Hungry Caterpillar?

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smeggers

OK Joe, now go away and read 'Animal Farm', '1984' and 'Clockwork Orange' (all fiction) and come back and tell me how you feel about politics?

Thats the trouble with issues such as religion, animal rights etc, they let "feelings" get in the way of truth.

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have read Clockwork Orange. The books you list are fiction, what has that got to do with any truth, just the authors opinion surely?

And animal rights are all about feelings, they have to be.

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

My questions you <s>ignored</s> forgot to read on page 10 still remain unanswered Joe:

Are you saying that maximising profits for shareholders has no connection to the animals abuse?
...or that in doing so they are not adhering to principals you hold dear?

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Again forgive me for taking up a question which is directed at Joe. I noticed earlier the highly specific and awful matter of baseball with turkeys and the apparent attempt to link it to the general phenomenon of capitalism.

I think that most reasonable people would say that that act of peculiarly obnoxious cruelty was the result of an immoral choice made by the two workers in question.

A point which could be made is that a capitalist economy makes it economically sensible to grind the maximum profit out of animal husbandry which leads to the IMO inexcusable conditions of battery farming. This is the correct place at which government interference should take place. I suspect that there would be no widespread oppostion to much tougher legislation with respect to the welfare of farm animals even if it did mean paying a bit more for meat, eggs etc.

But to try to link that act of cruelty to capitalism is, frankly, ludicrous.

Smeggers · June 2007

My point is that fiction can change the way you feel about 'truth'.

PLease read this...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pig-Heart-Boy-M ... 774&sr=8-1

... then tell me about your feelings towards animal rights?

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smeggers

My point is that fiction can change the way you feel about 'truth'.

PLease read this...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pig-Heart-Boy-M ... 774&sr=8-1

... then tell me about your feelings towards animal rights?

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My feelings will be the same. Animals should be given the best life they can be given.

Unkraut · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

The Hungry Caterpillar?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ah, memories! [:)]

redcogs · June 2007

My old Dad used to say (of farmers) that if being a bit more cruel to their livestock meant that they would make an additional shilling, then that is what would happen.

Capitalism encourages cruelty to animals, ankev's example of caged hens is a striking one. Capitalism is hunting many 'wild' creatures to extinction, including some species of whale, and many types of primates.

The way we all treat each other is conditioned by capitalist social relations.

The way we treat other animals is conditioned by capitalism.

Those who try to exempt capitalism from responsibility for these matters are in a fools paradise.

i find this to be extremely sad, because they are often such obviously caring and kind people.

please look up to the stars.. ***
Edited for missing out "of farmers"[:o)]

Soapbox defenders of Capitalism-attention

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