Soapbox defenders of Capitalism-attention

Fab Foodie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Under socialism , the individual is subsumed into the State, but the worst of this is that in no case where this has ever been tried was the State ever benign. So perhaps capitalism is the lesser of two evils.

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Any 'socialism' worthy of support has one fundamental aim - the creation of a classless society. It follows from this that 'socialists', certainly of the marxist variety, are opposed to the very existence of 'the state', which is an instrument which enables and maintains the rule of one class (the rulers) over a subordinate class (the workers).

'Socialists' anxiously anticipate the 'withering away of the state', because the aim is to arrive at a situation where there is no necessity for one class to oppress another.

please look up to the stars.. ***
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redcogs...were you "Wolfie Smith" of the "Tooting Popular Front" back in the mid 70's? You certainly sound like him from the above post...Comedy I seem to remember [:D]

The pessimists of this world are rarely disappointed....
Fab's TCR1

cookiemonstercp · June 2007

Just thought I'd throw my tuppence worth here.

I've always earned under the national average and have never claimed a state benefit, I consider myself to be very lucky in that and, when I finish my degree, I may earn possibly just above the national aveage.

I will not be employing anyone or creating wealth but I will be doing a job which I will enjoy. That, to me personally, is more important than working myself into an early grave trying to join the super rich, or the reasonably rich, unless my lottery ticket comes up.

I can understand people needing to earn money to pay bills etc especially when they have a family but what's the point if you are working so hard to earn more money than you realistically need that you have no social life, never see your family and suffer from health problems.

No wonder this country has massive rates of divorce and stress related illnesses.

BTW, can someone please explain to me why the 'class system' is so important in this country? Does it matter? Should the person be more important not his/her class? 

Yeah but no but yeah but......

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Anyone but you spire (don't take this personally), you are too secretive and irrational and bound up with furthering the interests of your rich mates.

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It is interesting to observe that lefties not only believe that they have a monopoly on compassion, but also that only the poor have right to take care of their own interests and improve their lot in life.

I believe that everybody should be given the chance to better themselves and that this comes through education and effort.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...The best managers motivate their teams, lead their teams, make their teams more efficient...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">These teams... do they go "baaaaa" a lot?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

So because I don't agree with you I am cynical.
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No Joe, i don't think you are cynical because you disagree with me.

i think your view of why people behave as they do is cynical. You do not, if i understand your argument correctly, allow for any possibility that human beings can be motivated by considerations other than the wallet or individual concerns.

please look up to the stars.. ***
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You misunderstand then. People are motivated by many things (job security, empowerment, career progression etc,) In fact looking at a lot of research puts money fairly low down.
However, some people are motivated by money and are more materialistic than others. This is what you system does not allow for meaning that those people are then not free to do what they ideally want.

I am a great believer in NHS (although I would run in completely differently and get small private hospitals to run it as they do a better job so the NHS budget would pay for that instead but the service to the public would still be free)

I am not some evil capitalist who things the rich should have everything and the poor should die. I just feel that the country as a whole is more prosperous under capitalism and a more prosperous country has more money to go around so the average standard of living is higher.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

Redcogs said to Joe:

i think your view of why people behave as they do is cynical. You do not, if i understand your argument correctly, allow for any possibility that human beings can be motivated by considerations other than the wallet or individual concerns.

i find this to be a common problem with people who are attracted to free marketism and who are strongly individualistic in their orientations.

Joe as we all know is avid free marketeer, a champion of individual( and personal, he has stated so repeatedly) financial selfishness who regards attempts at market regulation or redistribution of any form as 'against nature' and counterproductive

I dare say it would be fair to say that someone, say, Bernard Matthews would have views and attitudes virtually indistinguishable form Joes
Joe as some of us know, is a champion of animal rights, but somehow fails to see the contradiction between his support for unfettered industrial capitalism and the obsession with his kind of capitalism finding the lowest possible price for the customer and the consequent industrial scale abuse of animals

So perhaps joe can explain this contradiction and explain how the meat industry, by fullfilling all of his criteria of good capitalist-consumer practice is, in fact, doing nothing wrong

On 7 September 2006 two employees of a contractor working for Bernard Matthews were convicted of animal cruelty after being filmed playing 'baseball' with live turkeys. A vet who viewed the tape described the abuse as hideous, the worst he had seen in his 25-year career. One man was seen hurling a turkey while the other used a pole made for rounding up turkeys as a bat to hit it with."[12]

Their defence lawyer stated that their actions were part of a 'culture' at the Norfolk plant. The two men were each sentenced to 200 hours of community service. The sentences were later criticised as being 'derisory' by some animal welfare organisations.

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unkraut · June 2007

I don't see what individuals at Bernard Matthews factory have to do with capitalism as such - this incident might as easily have happened at a workers' cooperative. Also belief in a 'free' market does not necessarily mean you are financially selfish, you have to judge each case on its merits. You could also claim that 'redistribution' can in effect mean the industrious are robbed of their wealth to indulge the lazy and indolent. Just as the right are often unwilling to acknowledge the existence of greed, so the left seem unwilling to acknowledge the existence of scroungers.
Personally, I still like the now rather dated German social market economy approach, where the state can act against the worst excesses of capitalism without making the population into its slaves.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

That's easy Gary. I am in favour of capitalism, but that doesn't mean I am in favour of a company abusing animals. If someone was to set up a slave trading company I would not be in favour of that either.
Are you saying that animal abuse would not happen in your socialist thing?

You are actually making a lot of false claims there as well. I have never said I am in favour of unfettered industrial capitalism and never said I regards attempts at market regulation or redistribution of any form as 'against nature' and counterproductive.

I have said I favour overall capitalism to socialism and I have said I am against FULL redistibution and market regulation. A big difference.

jel · June 2007

As a worker starting out in the print industry I was often expected to 'do my bit' to get a job out the door. This was often unpaid and just expected for the good of the team. Fine the first couple of times but a 12 hour shift is not good fun no matter how 'necessary' it is. So I ensured I was always paid overtime from there on in, and now I have my own business I do the same.

It's not about money being the ultimate thing, it's about having your time valued and being able to have the choice of giving your time up and being rewarded for it. If I give up time of my own I get paid.

I can't see a similar way of doing that under a socialist system. Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

I'm earning nothing this year as well.

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Unkraut

I don't see what individuals at Bernard Matthews factory have to do with capitalism as such - this incident might as easily have happened at a workers' cooperative. Also belief in a 'free' market does not necessarily mean you are financially selfish, you have to judge each case on its merits. You could also claim that 'redistribution' can in effect mean the industrious are robbed of their wealth to indulge the lazy and indolent. Just as the right are often unwilling to acknowledge the existence of greed, so the left seem unwilling to acknowledge the existence of scroungers.
Personally, I still like the now rather dated German social market economy approach, where the state can act against the worst excesses of capitalism without making the population into its slaves.
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I couldn't agree more and the proof of the pudding is that people seem to be generally better off in Germany than in places like the UK. My only concern is that the German top dogs seem to have latched on to Anglo-American style greed in the past few years and given its track record of ruthless success, I fear that this trend may not be resisted. I would hate to see Germany go down the tubes and become another UK. To preserve those sorts of societies would be one of the few things which the EU could sensibly aspire to i.e. put up the barriers and keep the Anglo-American model out for the good and benefit of all.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...The best managers motivate their teams, lead their teams, make their teams more efficient...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">These teams... do they go "baaaaa" a lot?
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No, why would they? I want people in my team who question, come up with innovative ideas, want to be part of the team etc,.

All things that I would imagine are alien to you. You seem like someone who just stays in a job that they hate and moans about it rather than doing anything constructive and moving to a job they would enjoy and get more out of.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

That's easy Gary. I am in favour of capitalism, but that doesn't mean I am in favour of a company abusing animals. If someone was to set up a slave trading company I would not be in favour of that either.
Are you saying that animal abuse would not happen in your socialist thing?

You are actually making a lot of false claims there as well. I have never said I am in favour of unfettered industrial capitalism and never said I regards attempts at market regulation or redistribution of any form as 'against nature' and counterproductive.

I have said I favour overall capitalism to socialism and I have said I am against FULL redistibution and market regulation. A big difference.

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Are you saying that maximising profits for shareholders has no connection to the animals abuse?
...or that in doing so they are not adhering to principals you hold dear?

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...People are motivated by many things (job security, empowerment, career progression etc,)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Surely only the most arrant tosser imaginable would be motivated by "empowerment"? [xx(]

And what makes you think that there is a job I would enjoy? It is the nature of employment that it is not enjoyable; that's why employers have to pay us to turn up every day, duh.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

That's easy Gary. I am in favour of capitalism, but that doesn't mean I am in favour of a company abusing animals. If someone was to set up a slave trading company I would not be in favour of that either.
Are you saying that animal abuse would not happen in your socialist thing?

You are actually making a lot of false claims there as well. I have never said I am in favour of unfettered industrial capitalism and never said I regards attempts at market regulation or redistribution of any form as 'against nature' and counterproductive.

I have said I favour overall capitalism to socialism and I have said I am against FULL redistibution and market regulation. A big difference.

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Are you saying that maximising profits for shareholders has no connection to the animals abuse?
...or that in doing so they are not adhering to principals you hold dear?

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

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Are you saying that animal abuse would not happen in your socialist thing?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...People are motivated by many things (job security, empowerment, career progression etc,)...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Surely only the most arrant tosser imaginable would be motivated by "empowerment"? [xx(]

And what makes you think that there is a job I would enjoy? It is the nature of employment that it is not enjoyable; that's why employers have to pay us to turn up every day, duh.
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Okay, so empowerment doesn't work for you. It was only one of many things that do work for people.

As for finding a job you enjoy, I feel you are being a little bit defeatist there! But we have discussed that before and it is clear you just have an all jobs are bad approach and are not prepared to put any effort into seeing if that is true or not by trying others.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

What socialist thing?
When and where have I advocated this socialist thing?

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...it is clear you just have an all jobs are bad approach and are not prepared to put any effort into seeing if that is true or not by trying others.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't need to. I have already learned from experience.

You described employment in terms of a game earlier. Well, it may be a game, and it may one we are forced to play, but it is unwinnable. One can only limit one's losses, which is exactly what I do by remaining in a job which has an unusually high ratio of remuneration to effort.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

What socialist thing?
When and where have I advocated this socialist thing?

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

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Okay, whatever system you believe in.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

Mine has a unusually low ratio of remuneration to effort [:(!]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...it is clear you just have an all jobs are bad approach and are not prepared to put any effort into seeing if that is true or not by trying others.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't need to. I have already learned from experience.

You described employment in terms of a game earlier. Well, it may be a game, and it may one we are forced to play, but it is unwinnable. One can only limit one's losses, which is exactly what I do by remaining in a job which has an unusually high ratio of remuneration to effort.
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I just treat jobs as something I need to enjoy. I will be spending 40 years of my life working so feel it is worth putting in the effort to ensure I am always doing a job I enjoy.

So you hate every single job you could possibly do. I feel sorry for the you as you are using up 40 years of your life to do something you hate.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...I feel sorry for the you as you are using up 40 years of your life to do something you hate.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And I feel sorry for you because not only are you deluded about the nature of employment in a capitalist state, but you have also become corrupted into believing that exerting power over others is a legitimate reward for work done.

So let's call it quits, shall we?

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

The holy grail is to find a job you find fascinating, interesting and mentally challanging
I know very few who say they have found one...
Of the ones that say they have, 99% of them are fooling themselves because they have a chronic lack of imagination and expectations of what a life could (and should) be

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...I feel sorry for the you as you are using up 40 years of your life to do something you hate.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And I feel sorry for you because not only are you deluded about the nature of employment in a capitalist state, but you have also become corrupted into believing that exerting power over others is a legitimate reward for work done.

So let's call it quits, shall we?

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
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Let me ask you this. In your dream anarchist country, or whatever you ideal is, what would people be doing as they wouldn't be working for companies?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

The holy grail is to find a job you find fascinating, interesting and mentally challanging
I know very few who say they have found one...
Of the ones that say they have, 99% of them are fooling themselves because they have a chronic lack of imagination and expectations of what a life could (and should) be

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

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If they are happy then why would it matter if you think they are fooling themselves or not. Your expectations from a life are not going to be the same as theirs are they?

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

[And I feel sorry for you because not only are you deluded about the nature of employment in a capitalist state, but you have also become corrupted into believing that exerting power over others is a legitimate reward for work done.

So let's call it quits, shall we?

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
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I know your comments were addressed to Joe, but if I may pick up a couple of points. It always comes across as a bit arrogant to accuse someone of being deluded simply because they are content with something with which you disagree. Almost by definition, if he is happy with his version of reality, he is unlikely to be deluded.

You have, I think, misinterpreted the meaning of the word "empowerment". It usually doesn't mean being given power over other people (although it can involve an element of that); it is normally taken to mean that you delegate to people the authority to make certain decisions about their work so that they don't have to run to their boss all the time i.e. it usually means placing trust in employees' judgement.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

...You have, I think, misinterpreted the meaning of the word "empowerment"...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Given the author and the context in which they appeared, I don't think I did [V]

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

...Almost by definition, if he is happy with his version of reality, he is unlikely to be deluded.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Er, so millions of theists aren't deluded?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Let me ask you this. In your dream anarchist country, or whatever you ideal is, what would people be doing as they wouldn't be working for companies?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Working far fewer hours than we are currently incarcerated for. Of course, there will need to be a large-scale cull first. So don't worry, you won't have to experience the horror of it.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

...You have, I think, misinterpreted the meaning of the word "empowerment"...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Given the author and the context in which they appeared, I don't think I did [V]

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Yes you did. Empowerment means giving power to employees. It doesn't mean anything else.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Let me ask you this. In your dream anarchist country, or whatever you ideal is, what would people be doing as they wouldn't be working for companies?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Working far fewer hours than we are currently incarcerated for. Of course, there will need to be a large-scale cull first. So don't worry, you won't have to experience the horror of it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So how do you know a country runs with people working far less hours, why would the jobs bring any more satisfaction?

And don't worry, I won't have to experience the horror of it as is ain't gonna happen. You need to think careefully before saying anyone is deluded.

Soapbox defenders of Capitalism-attention

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