Soapbox defenders of Capitalism-attention

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

...Almost by definition, if he is happy with his version of reality, he is unlikely to be deluded.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Er, so millions of theists aren't deluded?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Let me see now. Deluded and completely happy with life or realistic (which is what you presumably claim to be) and a totally miserable moaner who spends 40 years of his life hating what he does.

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

...Almost by definition, if he is happy with his version of reality, he is unlikely to be deluded.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Er, so millions of theists aren't deluded?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's a fair point with the implications of which I agree. In fact as I was typing the original sentence I was thinking about the categories of people I would regard as deluded and theists were certainly there. OTH I think it was fair to make the point I did as it deals with the hard "real" world of economics and politics about which the arguments on all sides are well known and frequently rehearsed. So in this case, given the subject matter and that Joe is well informed (how could he not be as a regular participant in this forum), I don't think accusations of delusion hold up. I would equally argue that e.g. Redcogs is not deluded in his views. It is simply the case that on both sides of the left/right argument the jury is out on a lot of issues. Put simply the right has won the short to middle term argument but I suspect that some chickens from the left may come home to roost in the future. That is a long way from delusion.

jel · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco
Let me ask you this. In your dream anarchist country, or whatever you ideal is, what would people be doing as they wouldn't be working for companies?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From what I can tell from my anarchist mates they'll be getting involved in the political process so it isn't devolved to central government and everyone is represented in every decision at every level.

Voting managers in and out and voting for higher levels of employment and shorter working hours and better conditions.

Didn't the prenationalised industries especially gas and electric suffer from major problems because of this?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yes you did.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh dearie me. That's easy to say after the event; I don't recall you quibbling at the time.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

So how do you know a country runs with people working far less hours, why would the jobs bring any more satisfaction?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Where did I mention a "country"? Where did I say that work will be any more satisfying?

Your ability to imagine a world different from the one you inhabit is so limited that there doesn't seem to be much mileage in continuing this discussion.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

Unkraut · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

...Almost by definition, if he is happy with his version of reality, he is unlikely to be deluded.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Er, so millions of theists aren't deluded?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Very definitely not.
[:D]

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Let me see now. Deluded and completely happy with life or realistic (which is what you presumably claim to be) and a totally miserable moaner who spends 40 years of his life hating what he does.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You're assuming far too much from the apparent persona behind an Internet forum name. You simply don't know whether the real person behind that front is "totally miserable".

I should be careful about assuming that complete happiness is durable, too; uncontrollable bad things happen to smug people just as much as to realists.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

So how do you know a country runs with people working far less hours, why would the jobs bring any more satisfaction?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Where did I mention a "country"? Where did I say that work will be any more satisfying?

Your ability to imagine a world different from the one you inhabit is so limited that there doesn't seem to be much mileage in continuing this discussion.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I can imagine it alright. I am just asking you how you see it working and you seem to be struggling at the first question. So I agree there is not much mileage as your ideas appear very ill thought out.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

...OTH I think it was fair to make the point I did as it deals with the hard "real" world of economics and politics about which the arguments on all sides are well known and frequently rehearsed...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hmmm. I can't see that the internalisation of religion as a part of one's model of the world is really any different from the acceptance of a "hard" political model. Religious fundamentalists everywhere regard their beliefs as hard and "real" components of their world view.

So for now at least I'm sticking to my opinion that it is possible to be delusional (or, to use that overworked phrase, "in denial") about the reality of the world of employment.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Let me see now. Deluded and completely happy with life or realistic (which is what you presumably claim to be) and a totally miserable moaner who spends 40 years of his life hating what he does.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You're assuming far too much from the apparent persona behind an Internet forum name. You simply don't know whether the real person behind that front is "totally miserable".

I should be careful about assuming that complete happiness is durable, too; uncontrollable bad things happen to smug people just as much as to realists.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I accept that and the same applies to me. Yes it is a persona, but yours is a very miserable persona so must have some truth behind it.

And I am not smug, just happy thanks. And yes bad things happen, some people may just be in a better mindset to deal with them more positively though...

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

I can imagine it alright.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, so you say...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

I am just asking you how you see it working...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Question too vaguely phrased to merit much of an answer - wasn't that apparent?

Besides which, the odds on making you a convert to primitivist anarchism (or whatever label fits me - I don't necessarily accept any in its entirety) appear to be very poor, so why would I invest a lot of effort in the attempt?

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

...OTH I think it was fair to make the point I did as it deals with the hard "real" world of economics and politics about which the arguments on all sides are well known and frequently rehearsed...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hmmm. I can't see that the internalisation of religion as a part of one's model of the world is really any different from the acceptance of a "hard" political model. Religious fundamentalists everywhere regard their beliefs as hard and "real" components of their world view.

So for now at least I'm sticking to my opinion that it is possible to be delusional (or, to use that overworked phrase, "in denial") about the reality of the world of employment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well there is one hugely significant difference: the advocate of a political-economic system will always fall back on real world data (or representations thereof) to back up his arguments whearas the theist ultimately only has faith, which in the end is little more than a kind of hope (excepting, of course, the witnesses of divine manifestations).

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

I accept that and the same applies to me. Yes it is a persona, but yours is a very miserable persona so must have some truth behind it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There you go, making assumptions again.

a) that your perception of this Internet persona is necessarily correct, and is shared by the world at large
b) that the real person behind it necessarily corresponds with your perception of it.

If those things were the case, then you really would be pretty ghastly in real life, wouldn't you? And I'm sure you can't be as awful as you look on here.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

I can imagine it alright.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, so you say...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

I am just asking you how you see it working...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Question too vaguely phrased to merit much of an answer - wasn't that apparent?

Besides which, the odds on making you a convert to primitivist anarchism (or whatever label fits me - I don't necessarily accept any in its entirety) appear to be very poor, so why would I invest a lot of effort in the attempt?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Doesn't surprise me, you strike me as someone who wouldn't put any effort into very much. Oh well, I was prepared to listen.

I am genuinely interested in why you are so keen on a system that still requires a lot of what we have now (people doing jobs for others). What are the major gains you see (standard of living, peoples happiness etc,.)

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

I accept that and the same applies to me. Yes it is a persona, but yours is a very miserable persona so must have some truth behind it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There you go, making assumptions again.

a) that your perception of this Internet persona is necessarily correct, and is shared by the world at large
b) that the real person behind it necessarily corresponds with your perception of it.

If those things were the case, then you really would be pretty ghastly in real life, wouldn't you? And I'm sure you can't be as awful as you look on here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

All you can gain from an internet forum is a perception isn't it. I am pretty sure that you come across as pretty miserable to all people and would be surprised if I was the only one who though that.

I am probably as ghastly to you as you imagine as we have very opposing views on most things, but to use your words "and is shared by the world at large"

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

Well there is one hugely significant difference: the advocate of a political-economic system will always fall back on real world data (or representations thereof) to back up his arguments...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">But there is no agreement on the interpretation of those data, is there? Economists, and all the other "experts" who presume to interpret the world on our behalf, might as well be priests of conflicting cults!

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...Oh well, I was prepared to listen.

I am genuinely interested...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh well, my interpretation of your Internet persona is that you weren't and aren't, so I'm not prepared to waste typing skin.

redcogs · June 2007

NickM comes across as realistic in many of his assessments Joe.

i don't find him "miserable" or "moaning", on the contrary, he often gives an honest view about how dispiriting life at work can be.

The reality of daily work for most people for most of the time is dreadful. The nature of many of the available jobs is both tedious and meaningless. How many at work end up clock watching and wishing their lives away? People go to work to earn a living, out of economic compulsion, its something that is absolutely unavoidable for the overwhelming bulk of the working class. You kid yourself if you think, as you often appear to, that the work process is in any way fulfilling..

Its my firm belief, based on pretty wide industrial experience, that for most people, life actually only begins when they are away from work, after the Friday 'teatime bell', to use a phrase from an earlier time.

How often have you seen anyone bouncing out of bed at 6 am on Monday morning and happily cartwheeling and singing songs as they go down the road to work?

Nick, i think, wants to see a world where work isn't an alienating experience, and where everyone can benefit from the labour process, rather than engaging in an activity that is primarily arranged to feed the bloated faces of the already super rich. i share the same desire.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Joe Sacco · June 2007

Okay, so you happen to have a miserable defeatist view as well redcogs.

I just think it is worth trying to find something that is not totally soul destroying when you have to do it for 40 years. If you think all jobs are sould destroying then so be it, I just don't think people are trying hard enough.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

...Oh well, I was prepared to listen.

I am genuinely interested...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Oh well, my interpretation of your Internet persona is that you weren't and aren't, so I'm not prepared to waste typing skin.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Fair enough. Ironic that it was you that said internet persona's are only a perception which is likely to be wrong as well.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

Your ability to imagine a world different from the one you inhabit is so limited that there doesn't seem to be much mileage in continuing this discussion.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...the chronic (and probably incurable) lack of imagination I hinted at earlier.....[:)]
Joe need never feel alone with that affliction though [xx(]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unknown · June 2007

You feel absolutely compelled to have the last word, don't you? (in your Internet persona, of course). Is that why you became a "manager" (in your Internet persona, at least)?

Gary Askwith · June 2007

A phrase just popped into my mind, dunno why, so please, no-one take offence, where one cruel wag said in exasperation " I'm further from you in the conceptional evolutionary scale than you are from a chimp"
[:)] Class!

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

Your ability to imagine a world different from the one you inhabit is so limited that there doesn't seem to be much mileage in continuing this discussion.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...the chronic (and probably incurable) lack of imagination I hinted at earlier.....[:)]
Joe need never feel alone with that affliction though [xx(]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Okay, so bowing to you imagineers. Can you summarise your 'system' so I can work out why I and others would be so much happier please.

When I questioned NickM on how the place would run when everyone worked less hours he didn't have an answer.

Great for you to have these imaginations that I apparently don't have, but they need to be more than wild dreams don't they?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

You feel absolutely compelled to have the last word, don't you? (in your Internet persona, of course). Is that why you became a "manager" (in your Internet persona, at least)?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes and No.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

Your ability to imagine a world different from the one you inhabit is so limited that there doesn't seem to be much mileage in continuing this discussion.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...the chronic (and probably incurable) lack of imagination I hinted at earlier.....[:)]
Joe need never feel alone with that affliction though [xx(]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Okay, so bowing to you imagineers. Can you summarise your 'system' so I can work out why I and others would be so much happier please.

When I questioned NickM on how the place would run when everyone worked less hours he didn't have an answer.

Great for you to have these imaginations that I apparently don't have, but they need to be more than wild dreams don't they?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If I had to explain...you may not be happier but lots of others will
Whats wrong with dreaming..some caveman dreamed of a wheel once....[:)]
...and you should actually try reading Nicks replys once in a while

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

When I questioned NickM on how the place would run when everyone worked less hours he didn't have an answer.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Another unwarranted assertion.

You can have the last word, but not until after 4 o'clock, when I shall have gone to a better place.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

When I questioned NickM on how the place would run when everyone worked less hours he didn't have an answer.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Another unwarranted assertion.

You can have the last word, but not until after 4 o'clock, when I shall have gone to a better place.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You're dying at 4 o'clock? I will make no comment.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

Your ability to imagine a world different from the one you inhabit is so limited that there doesn't seem to be much mileage in continuing this discussion.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
...the chronic (and probably incurable) lack of imagination I hinted at earlier.....[:)]
Joe need never feel alone with that affliction though [xx(]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Okay, so bowing to you imagineers. Can you summarise your 'system' so I can work out why I and others would be so much happier please.

When I questioned NickM on how the place would run when everyone worked less hours he didn't have an answer.

Great for you to have these imaginations that I apparently don't have, but they need to be more than wild dreams don't they?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If I had to explain...you may not be happier but lots of others will
Whats wrong with dreaming..some caveman dreamed of a wheel once....[:)]
...and you should actually try reading Nicks replys once in a while

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How do you know lots of others will be happier? Have you run your idea past the majority of people and received that feedback?

What do you mean "no you haven't."

I do read NickMs replies. I just can't understand what he actually wants from life and he sure as hell can't explain it when pushed for answers.

Unknown · June 2007

No, he chooses not to explain to you. It's different.

So, will you still be at work at five past 4?

Soapbox defenders of Capitalism-attention

Comments

Categories