This whole RLJ thing

Cab · June 2007

I'd have said 'everyone', but I'm usually there with another cyclist...

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domtyler · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oddball
Every time a cyclist jumps the lights we move closer to number plates for bikes. Don't do it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Precisely.

Go to a party with lots of motorists.

Mention cycling.

Wait.

I guarantee that someone will rant about red lights. And you know what? The more cyclists blatantly ignore the law, the more demands that we're taxed/insured/registered become credible in the eyes of the masses.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Go to a house party in the 1970s, mention black people.. wait... I guarantee you before long everyone will be ranting about them coming over nicking all the jobs and housing, causing crime rates to soar etc etc.

When are you self righteous pedants going to learn to recognise prejudice when it is being rammed down your throat day in day out?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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dondare · June 2007

The way to counter prejudice is by not proving them right all the time.

This sig is under construction.

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domtyler
Go to a house party in the 1970s, mention black people.. wait... I guarantee you before long everyone will be ranting about them coming over nicking all the jobs and housing, causing crime rates to soar etc etc.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wrong. A minority of people would thus rant, like a minority would rant abotu Poles now.

And unlike your example, those people were (and are) wrong. Every time a cyclist bundles straight through a red light (I counted three just now cycling home, out of the right or so cyclists I passed) these idiots are proved right.

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Crooky · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domtyler
Go to a house party in the 1970s, mention black people.. wait... I guarantee you before long everyone will be ranting about them coming over nicking all the jobs and housing, causing crime rates to soar etc etc.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wrong. A minority of people would thus rant, like a minority would rant abotu Poles now.

And unlike your example, those people were (and are) wrong. Every time a cyclist bundles straight through a red light (I counted three just now cycling home, out of the right or so cyclists I passed) these idiots are proved right.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No he's not wrong Cab. Read some research on prejudice then you might think differently.

hevipedal · June 2007

[quote
Wrong. A minority of people would thus rant, like a minority would rant abotu Poles now.

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[/quote]

aufvedersein pet in reverse

(I apologise for the spelling if wrong don't speak german)

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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Crooky
No he's not wrong Cab. Read some research on prejudice then you might think differently.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, he is wrong. While there have been times with more racism than now, the seventies didn't have that as a majority view.

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Crooky · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Crooky
No he's not wrong Cab. Read some research on prejudice then you might think differently.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, he is wrong. While there have been times with more racism than now, the seventies didn't have that as a majority view.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's not related to the 70s, Dom was using that as an example, it's regarding prejudice as a whole. People associate themselves with a group then identify and discriminate against the out-group. Prejudice doesn't need a reason.

Ask yourself why motorists are really so annoyed at RLJing cyclists? Is it because they are breaking the law? Obviously not as 90% of motorists openly admit to speeding on a regular basis. So if it was about legality then they would be more annoyed at their fellow motorist more.

The truth is they dislike cyclists because we get in their way. No other reason.

Greenbank · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Crooky
The truth is they dislike cyclists because we get in their way. No other reason.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And because cyclists seemingly get away with RLJing but cars can't.

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Hackbike 6 · June 2007

...and other ways of breaking the laws...One way streets cycling on pavements blah blah blah.

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Oddballcp · June 2007

There are periodic calls to regulate cyclists more. The reasons always cited are that cyclists break the law, not that they get in the way.
Besides, the red light thing is the one that motorists bang on about the most, and if you argue a point enough you end up believing it. Conspicuous law breaking does more harm than simply being on the road.

http://victoryatseaonline.com/war/kellys.html

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Motorists have a bee in their bonnet over cyclists believe it.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
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How not to lock a bike. http://i14.tinypic.com/52355zr.jpg

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Crooky

Ask yourself why motorists are really so annoyed at RLJing cyclists? Is it because they are breaking the law? Obviously not as 90% of motorists openly admit to speeding on a regular basis. So if it was about legality then they would be more annoyed at their fellow motorist more.

The truth is they dislike cyclists because we get in their way. No other reason.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bikes don't often get in the way of cars, but cyclists are seen to jump the lights very often.

This sig is under construction.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hackbike 6

Motorists have a bee in their bonnet over cyclists believe it.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
Ride to work part 3 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jcldv 

How not to lock a bike. http://i14.tinypic.com/52355zr.jpg
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Largely because so many cyclists break the law, with both arrogance and impunity.

This sig is under construction.

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Bikes don't often get in the way of cars, but cyclists are seen to jump the lights very often.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Really - what about all the primary positioning folk?

Folders

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist
Really - what about all the primary positioning folk?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In most traffic the time taken for a motorist to get where he's going is more dictated by how much other traffic is there. Besides, a good prime position cyclist will let overtaking happen when it is safe to do so.

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Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Doesn't help if you have some lunatic behind you.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
Ride to work part 3 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jcldv 

How not to lock a bike. http://i14.tinypic.com/52355zr.jpg

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Bikes don't often get in the way of cars, but cyclists are seen to jump the lights very often.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Really - what about all the primary positioning folk?

Folders
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I never use that expression.
I always position myself perfectly for my own safety and can go from one year's end to the next without upsetting motorists. I take the lane when there's no room for a car to overtake safely, and move to the left when there is. I filter left or overtake right as appropriate, but I do not try to pass lorries near junctions.
Knowing how to use the road correctly without either endangering yourself or being a nuisance to others is true roadcraft.

This sig is under construction.

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I never use that expression.
I always position myself perfectly for my own safety and can go from one year's end to the next without upsetting motorists. I take the lane when there's no room for a car to overtake safely, and move to the left when there is. I filter left or overtake right as appropriate, but I do not try to pass lorries near junctions.
Knowing how to use the road correctly without either endangering yourself or being a nuisance to others is true roadcraft.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wow, you sound like the perfect cyclist.

It is testament to your road-handling skills and powers of ESP that you have never knowingly upset a motorist...Chapeau

Folders

Crooky · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dondare

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hackbike 6

Motorists have a bee in their bonnet over cyclists believe it.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
Ride to work part 3 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jcldv 

How not to lock a bike. http://i14.tinypic.com/52355zr.jpg
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Largely because so many cyclists break the law, with both arrogance and impunity.

This sig is under construction.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Whereas the motorist breaks the law with humility and a sense of deep inner pain.

Do you drive Dondare?

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Origamist

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I never use that expression.
I always position myself perfectly for my own safety and can go from one year's end to the next without upsetting motorists. I take the lane when there's no room for a car to overtake safely, and move to the left when there is. I filter left or overtake right as appropriate, but I do not try to pass lorries near junctions.
Knowing how to use the road correctly without either endangering yourself or being a nuisance to others is true roadcraft.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wow, you sound like the perfect cyclist.

It is testament to your road-handling skills and powers of ESP that you have never knowingly upset a motorist...Chapeau

Folders
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Motorists usuallly leave cyclists in do doubt of any upset that they've caused.

It isn't necessary to be perfect, a combination of good road skills and the right attitude is all that's needed.

This sig is under construction.

dondare · June 2007

I drive. I don't enjoy driving very much, and I'm probably not so good a driver as a cyclist.

This sig is under construction.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Crooky

Whereas the motorist breaks the law with humility and a sense of deep inner pain.

Do you drive Dondare?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They forgive themselves too easily.

This sig is under construction.

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

I never use that expression.
I always position myself perfectly for my own safety and can go from one year's end to the next without upsetting motorists. I take the lane when there's no room for a car to overtake safely, and move to the left when there is. I filter left or overtake right as appropriate, but I do not try to pass lorries near junctions.
Knowing how to use the road correctly without either endangering yourself or being a nuisance to others is true roadcraft.

Wow, you sound like the perfect cyclist.

It is testament to your road-handling skills and powers of ESP that you have never knowingly upset a motorist...Chapeau

Folders

Motorists usuallly leave cyclists in do doubt of any upset that they've caused.

It isn't necessary to be perfect, a combination of good road skills and the right attitude is all that's needed.

This sig is under construction.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

(My Bolds) That's more like it - you now sound like someone living in the real world.

Folders

tstegers · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dondare

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tstegers
[

I don't recall having your rationale for the 130 killed complying vs the zero or two killed jumping. (Jan 1999 to May 2004) Clearly these numbers suggest it is safer to jump lights. Somewhere between infinity and sixty five times safer based on the numbers. Here's your chance to impress everyone and detail why, everything else being equal, so many more people are killed complying with lights than otherwise? Please don't bang on about primary position and training. These things might clearly help cyclists to avoid being killed and maimed but they clearly did not in all the recorded cases to date. Any speculation about training and how lights are safely and legally negotiated is less valid - there being little evidence this is so, at least five of the six or so killed this year have been declared to be experienced and safety conscious cyclists - than the observation that not waiting and jumping them is a safer way to negotiate them.

Theo Stegers
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Lights are mainly at junctions.

Accidents are more likely to occur at junctions.

Accidents do not occur when the traffic is stationary.

Traffic is stationary at red lights.

Accidents do not occur at red lights.

Accidents can occur when the traffic is moving.

Traffic is moving when the light is green.

Are you keeping up?

Accidents therefore occur when the light is green, but not when the light is red.

This explains your figures.

Accidents can be avoided by ignoring the lights, but there are good reasons for not doing this.

Accidents can also be avoided by not riding on the inside of lorries at junction where they might be turning. For instance.

You can be safer by stopping at reds and positioning yourself correctly than by illegally jumping the red. This also has the advantages of not being illegal (so no risk of a fine) and not antagonizing everybody else.

RLJing increases hostility that cyclists face from motorists.

And lots of other stuff I've already said and you already know.

A pox on both your houses.
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dondare.Not!
You are trying too hard. If you think this explains 130:0 I think you have been imbibing the effluent from a fantasy factory. It is the ratio that is important, the nil figure jumping is the thing you need to explain. Your silly attempt at patronage does not explain why no one was killed jumping the lights while 130 were killed apparently complying with them to some extent. CupofT can probably confirm it one way or the other but my recollection of the numbers had the majority killed by trucks turning left across cyclists where the truck, the cyclist, or both had been stationary at the lights. I think you are confusing my experience of being hit traversing green lights but never coming close negotiating red lights with the tragic experiences of the 130 who were killed.

Please try again. To help you out with the things that seem to be distarcting you please let's have the rationale as to why no one was killed jumping lights in the period from Jan 99 to May 2004.

Theo Stegers

Mosschops2 · June 2007

Theo - I have been doing some research on the subject, you'll be pleased to know.

According to Transport for London, eight people died as a result of red-light jumping in 2006, in London alone.

Therefore your 130:0 figure needs a little more work....

Have you ever tried pressing Alt+F4 ??

dondare · June 2007

How can it be explained more clearly?
Traffic accidents occur when traffic is moving (green light); not when it's stationary (red light).

I have never claimed that rljing is especally dangerous, all of my counter arguments have been about the impression that it gives and the effect that that has on cycling as a whole; from the way we're treated on the road to the way we are and will be treated in the courts. (And even in the Parliament, have you been paying attention?)
I do argue that red-light-stopping need not be as dangerous as you say. It's mostly a matter of positioning.

This sig is under construction.

tstegers · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Theo

All you keep hanging on is your precious 130:0 which as you can see above can be dismissed very easily.

You need a reminder (your post mentioning me getting excited shows you've forgotten). It was actually you who 'got excited' about that TfL report, before you actually saw it. You kept going on about how vindicated you would be when it turned up. Then it did. And you were that vindicated by it that you would only allow those who agreed with you to see it. So a copy was obtained by someone else and distributed to those on here who asked for it, regardless of their own view.

And what the information showed clearly is that all this 'RLJing is safer' is a complete red herring, and a crass attempt by some to use the emotion of road deaths to shore up an argument for jumping reds. What the information showed is that there are several issues with junctions that need to be addressed to reduce accidents. And none of the measures required need make any mention of RLJing.

I'll say it again. If you want to RLJ then it's up to you. Everyone knows the arguments for and against, and we're all adults. It's your choice and your responsibility. But arguing it from a safety point of view is unjustifiable, dangerous and really very silly.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan
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Mister Paul

In commenting about ƒ?oexcitedƒ?? you are getting involved in projecting on to me that which motivates and excites you. In the Barbican thread you became ever more exercised and ever more convinced I had something to hide because I refused to send you the details I received from TfL. To try and save you from yourself I explained at the time why I would not send them to you. Cupof T was even concerned that you hade made a complete fool of yourself. I believe Cupof T is an open minded and generous individual and I believe seeing how much of your self image is bound up in these forums he felt some concern for you.

To refresh your memory as to why I would not send you the details you had repeatedly showed you wanted to believe that the people who had been crushed had been undertaking the HGVs that did for them. That the cyclists were culpable. I had repeatedly called you crass. I know you remember. Why you wanted to believe this is clear, it is because this belief suits you preconceived ideas about cyclists who RLJ and cyclists who get crushed at lights. That your ideas in this regard are nonsense is borne out by the details of the six or so cyclists who have been killed in London this year. To continue to pedal this nonsense is a vanity.

The first sentence of your quoted mail above shows you out. In the Barbican thread I lost count of the times I asked you to explain the 130:0, I asked you every time you claimed to have explained it. Here you are again trying to ride on the shirt tails of dare.Not! Unfortunately you cannot have read dare.Not!'s post carefully because it explains nothing. It's just venting from a man who declares himself tired. I doubt I will get any rationale from dare.Not!, so here is your chance to help him out. Give us the explanation, let's have your rationale for the extraordinary discrepancy...

Theo Stegers

cupofteacp · June 2007

Mosschop2, do you have any more info?
In the period 1999 to 2005 there were only two deaths according to TFL / Street, and I dispute they way they came up with those figures, but hey ho

Did you get the info from Street or TFL?

How may other cycling deaths were there in 2006?

15 * 2 * 5
* 46 = Happiness

Regulator · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dondare

How can it be explained more clearly?
Traffic accidents occur when traffic is moving (green light); not when it's stationary (red light).

I have never claimed that rljing is especally dangerous, all of my counter arguments have been about the impression that it gives and the effect that that has on cycling as a whole; from the way we're treated on the road to the way we are and will be treated in the courts. (And even in the Parliament, have you been paying attention?)
I do argue that red-light-stopping need not be as dangerous as you say. It's mostly a matter of positioning.

This sig is under construction.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I hate to burst your bubble Dondare, but I have attended a number of accident which have occurred when the lights are red. It's amazing how many motorists don't spot other vehicles stopped in front of them at lights (be they cars or bikes). One accident I saw a Mini had managed to wedge itself under the back of a lorry's trailer. The Mini driver's head was found on the back seat!

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This whole RLJ thing

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