Portsmouth = 1st city with a blanket 20mph limit

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cunobelin

But......

speeding offences AREpoor or dangerous driving, and illegal driving.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If that is the case than they should be charged with careless or dangerous driving.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or just charged speeding, because it is more careless and more dangerous than the same driver, in the same circumstances, driving within the limits.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cunobelin

Interestingly the IAM position is that they would withdraw their endorsement of your examiner who allows speeding during an exam. If there is any proof of your claims, then it would in fact invalidate your qualification.

But back to the point.......
This illustrates that the crime one is prosecuted for is the one that is proven, not necessarily the one the Police would like to proceed with.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I suggest you consider taking a course and finding out yourself - if you already haven't. I found the experience invaluable, and learnt a great deal about safe driving. In fact while on the test I came across a peculiar speed limit on a motorway slip road - the examiner told me that I was entirely correct to ignore it, that the placement of the limit was actually quite dangerous. Illegal behaviour, but quite safe at the time.

My qualification - you're probably correct, but the qualification doesn't really offer me anything. Insurance isn't cheaper. The course has improved my safe driving significantly, thats something that can never be taken from me. I suppose it means that statistically I'm less likely to be involved in any incident, but I would never take that for granted.

To expand on your point though, it also illustrates that the crime one is prosecuted for is the one that tends to involve the least amount of work.

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Or just charged speeding, because it is more careless and more dangerous than the same driver, in the same circumstances, driving within the limits.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If a driver's behaviour is proveably careless or dangerous, then let that driver be charged with either of those offences. Let's see that element of unsafe driving be proven with the same criteria as those offences demand.

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Or just charged speeding, because it is more careless and more dangerous than the same driver, in the same circumstances, driving within the limits.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If a driver's behaviour is proveably careless or dangerous, then let that driver be charged with either of those offences. Let's see that element of unsafe driving be proven with the same criteria as those offences demand.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If someone is breaking the speed limit then they've already proved themselves as dangerous and careless drivers, no matter how good they are or think they are. For the reason given in my last post.

Careless. Think about the word.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Or just charged speeding, because it is more careless and more dangerous than the same driver, in the same circumstances, driving within the limits.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If a driver's behaviour is proveably careless or dangerous, then let that driver be charged with either of those offences. Let's see that element of unsafe driving be proven with the same criteria as those offences demand.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If someone is breaking the speed limit then they've already proved themselves as dangerous and careless drivers, no matter how good they are or think they are. For the reason given in my last post.

Careless. Think about the word.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It is careless by definition, because it implies that they don't care about the speed limit. But whether that's also dangerous is probably what's more of an issue to debate.

What does anybody think about those speed limit signs that show your speed and flash up 'slow down' in red if you're over the limit...?

<hr noshade size="1">
CyclingIsPermittedAlongThisFootpath GenericPath

Tourist Tony · June 2007

They could pay for them by attaching a cemera...in my experience they are generally ignored because they HAVEN'T got a camera.

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Or just charged speeding, because it is more careless and more dangerous than the same driver, in the same circumstances, driving within the limits.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If a driver's behaviour is proveably careless or dangerous, then let that driver be charged with either of those offences. Let's see that element of unsafe driving be proven with the same criteria as those offences demand.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If someone is breaking the speed limit then they've already proved themselves as dangerous and careless drivers, no matter how good they are or think they are. For the reason given in my last post.

Careless. Think about the word.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It is careless by definition, because it implies that they don't care about the speed limit. But whether that's also dangerous is probably what's more of an issue to debate.

What does anybody think about those speed limit signs that show your speed and flash up 'slow down' in red if you're over the limit...?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It changed my life when I realised how dangerous they are. They are dangerously distracting and cause poor drivers (not me, you understand) to panic brake. 3 thousand people have been killed by them. Give me 20 minutes and I'll knock something up to prove that, and I think it'll convince you.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Mister Paul · June 2007

BTW, Bonj, I thought you might be interested-

I was cycling around Cheltenham ring road yesterday. I got a Fiesta, with 4 lads inside (all windows down) brush past me as close as possible without touching me. As the car passed the drvier could be clearly heard to say "That'll teach him" with a snigger.

Where were you yesterday? Do you have cousins in the Cotswolds?

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul
If someone is breaking the speed limit then they've already proved themselves as dangerous and careless drivers, no matter how good they are or think they are. For the reason given in my last post.

Careless. Think about the word.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are police officers careless?

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul
I was cycling around Cheltenham ring road yesterday. I got a Fiesta, with 4 lads inside (all windows down) brush past me as close as possible without touching me. As the car passed the drvier could be clearly heard to say "That'll teach him" with a snigger.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If they could invent cameras for behaviour like that then you and I might find ourselves in agreement more often.

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul
If someone is breaking the speed limit then they've already proved themselves as dangerous and careless drivers, no matter how good they are or think they are. For the reason given in my last post.

Careless. Think about the word.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are police officers careless?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Any ones in particular, or do you just want a generalisation?

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul
I was cycling around Cheltenham ring road yesterday. I got a Fiesta, with 4 lads inside (all windows down) brush past me as close as possible without touching me. As the car passed the drvier could be clearly heard to say "That'll teach him" with a snigger.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If they could invent cameras for behaviour like that then you and I might find ourselves in agreement more often.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Imagine how much worse it would be if they got rid of safety cameras and had to pull the current traffic police out of their current duties to replace the cameras.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cretin · June 2007

I don't 'want' anything but would like a straightforward answer to a straightforward question.

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

I don't 'want' anything but would like a straightforward answer to a straightforward question.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

ASk me a straightforward question and I'll answer it. That's not a straightforward question.

You answer me a 'straightforward question' and I'll answer yours-

Are police officers black?

See where I'm going?

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cretin · June 2007

Sigh. Allright then. Are proficient traffic police officers while breaking the posted speed limit, careless or dangerous merely for breaking that speed limit?

Tourist Tony · June 2007

Are trained surgeons dangerous lunatics for taking a knife to someone?
What a typically self-serving SS troll post.
But I'll answer it anyway.
A trained, qualified emergency services driver reacting to a shout is not careless. His actions are dangerous to himself and to others, but are done in as controlled a way as possible so as to minimise that danger.
An off-duty driver who decides to "see what it will do" (I mean "familiarise himself with the vehicle") is dangerous, and I would say reckless.

As you are so clearly obsessed with speed limit enforcement, I will answer the unasked portion of your question:
Is some deluded knob who believes in PS' made-up numbers, and in a previous SS troll's claim that all drivers are "safe'n'experienced", and that fines for criminal offences are "stealth taxes", careless or dangerous merely for breaking the speed limit (sorry, "drifting over accidentally while not being distracted by the speedometer and/or accelerating out of narcolepsy")?

The answer is "yes".
You've ignored the question repeatedly, goitred one. What is your username on SS?

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

Cretin · June 2007

I don't think I'm the one who is obsessive. However I'll leave it to Mister Paul to answer the question, thanks for your opinion. You can share the 'ignore' room with Rothbrook for the same reason that he's in there.

Tourist Tony · June 2007

Ah, what a good and predictable SSer you are! Using the Small Pith "plonk" technique, otherwise known as the "lalalalalala can't hear you"

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

Tourist Tony · June 2007

What is your SS username, troll?

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

Cunobelin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In fact while on the test I came across a peculiar speed limit on a motorway slip road - the examiner told me that I was entirely correct to ignore it, that the placement of the limit was actually quite dangerous. Illegal behaviour, but quite safe at the time.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In which case if you identify them to the IAM they WILL be removed!

He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
(Unattributed Trad.)

Cunobelin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

Imagine how much worse it would be if they got rid of safety cameras and had to pull the current traffic police out of their current duties to replace the cameras.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which is why the "speeding lobby" wants them removed and replaced by a system that is less likely to catch them speeding. Maintaining the automated systems is vital to censure the present behaviour.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Sigh. Allright then. Are proficient traffic police officers while breaking the posted speed limit, careless or dangerous merely for breaking that speed limit?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If taking part in an authorised, monitored and reviewed training exercise, or reacting to an authorised, controlled and reviewed emergency call - then No, any risk is assessed, the need balances the potential risk and there is a measurable beneficial outcome.

If simply "joyriding" in a fast car, without authorisation without assessment and without any mindependent measure of the outcome then there is no measurable and beneficial outcome then - YES!

He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
(Unattributed Trad.)

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

Sigh. Allright then. Are proficient traffic police officers while breaking the posted speed limit, careless or dangerous merely for breaking that speed limit?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now that's more like a straightforward question. Thanks.

Do you really need it answered? It's blindingly obvious. Do you not realise that it's about risk assessment, and that highly trained emergency services drivers sometimes need to get somewhere quickly? And that there are strict guidlines about what constitutes an emergency?

What is your justification for speeding? There isn't one. There is no need at all for you to do it. So if you remained within the limit, with your claimed excellent driving skills, you would be safer and more responsible. Exceed the limit when you don't need to, and you would be driving more carelessly and more dangerously.

As someone else has mentioned, you wouldn't expect anyone with any intelligence to claim that they should be allowed to carry out surgery. Aside from the fact that, using the comparison to your position they are the only people who think they are qualified to carry out the surgey, there is absolutely no need for them to do it. And so it would be careless and dangerous.

Who are you serving when you exceed the speed limit cretin? Can you think of anyone except yourself?

It's a pretty poor argument for being able to drive faster really isn't it? And most people can see that it's a pretty poor argument.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Mister Paul · June 2007

Oh, and Bonjy-

Just to highlight the fact that your perception of me is intentionally exaggerated-

Stratford, Saturday morning. Cycling down a very narrow one way street (the right way). Two blokes and an older lady walk out into the road without looking. I slowed down, giving them enough room to continue to cross. But then idiot number one (about 35-40, well built) decides that he doesn't want to cross the road and would be much happier walking away from me down the centre of it (they still don't know I'm there). Space is getting a bit tight now, so I give them a polite ring of my bell to let them know of my presence.

Idiot number one is spooked by it and swings round. His pride then took over and he complained that I left it too late to ring. I reminded him that he shouldn't really be walking down the middle of a road when there are pavements either side. He goes into overdrive and threatens, setence laden with f, c and t words to rip me from my bike. I smile at him, fully aware that we are now at a t-junction with stationary traffic on both sides of the road we have met, most of the drivers watching with some interest. Meanwhile his mother (or girlfriend if he likes older women) is trying to calm him down. Every time he looks at me he starts ranting again, but makes no effort to carry out any of his tediously repeated threats.

Highly entertaining.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

Sigh. Allright then. Are proficient traffic police officers while breaking the posted speed limit, careless or dangerous merely for breaking that speed limit?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now that's more like a straightforward question. Thanks.

Do you really need it answered? It's blindingly obvious. Do you not realise that it's about risk assessment, and that highly trained emergency services drivers sometimes need to get somewhere quickly? And that there are strict guidlines about what constitutes an emergency?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How does that statement tally with this one, on the previous page?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul
If someone is breaking the speed limit then they've already proved themselves as dangerous and careless drivers, no matter how good they are or think they are. For the reason given in my last post.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cunobelin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In fact while on the test I came across a peculiar speed limit on a motorway slip road - the examiner told me that I was entirely correct to ignore it, that the placement of the limit was actually quite dangerous. Illegal behaviour, but quite safe at the time.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In which case if you identify them to the IAM they WILL be removed!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't think you speak from experience. Do yourself a favour, seriously. Get down to your local group, pay the subs (its only œ85 and can help you become a much safer driver), and find out for yourself what the police attitude on speed limits is, and what gulf exists between your opinion of their importance, and their actual importance.

In advanced driving, speed limits are pretty much at the back of the manual. If you do not believe me then take the course yourself.

speshcp · June 2007

BTW folks, you've only 39 pages to go before this thread equals the current length of the "girls in lycra" thread over in Cake Stop.

As you were...

<hr noshade size="1">"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein)

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

Sigh. Allright then. Are proficient traffic police officers while breaking the posted speed limit, careless or dangerous merely for breaking that speed limit?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now that's more like a straightforward question. Thanks.

Do you really need it answered? It's blindingly obvious. Do you not realise that it's about risk assessment, and that highly trained emergency services drivers sometimes need to get somewhere quickly? And that there are strict guidlines about what constitutes an emergency?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How does that statement tally with this one, on the previous page?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

Originally posted by Mister Paul
If someone is breaking the speed limit then they've already proved themselves as dangerous and careless drivers, no matter how good they are or think they are. For the reason given in my last post.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I presumed you have the intelligence to know who we are talking about. It doesn't tally with that one, because I wasn't talking about the police.

You know what I think about the emergency services and speed. So why do you need to point out what you thought was a flaw in my reasoning?

Why is your need to speed on a par with that of the emergency services cretin? You still haven't explained that. Unless it is, and you can provide reasonable justification, then I'm afraid that this line of your argument is going nowhere.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul
I presumed you have the intelligence to know who we are talking about. It doesn't tally with that one, because I wasn't talking about the police.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul
ASk me a straightforward question and I'll answer it. That's not a straightforward question.

You answer me a 'straightforward question' and I'll answer yours-

Are police officers black?

See where I'm going?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is 'anyone' careless and dangerous?

See where I'm going?

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul
I presumed you have the intelligence to know who we are talking about. It doesn't tally with that one, because I wasn't talking about the police.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul
ASk me a straightforward question and I'll answer it. That's not a straightforward question.

You answer me a 'straightforward question' and I'll answer yours-

Are police officers black?

See where I'm going?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is 'anyone' careless and dangerous?

See where I'm going?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

...and you know what my response is. Because I've explained it clearly. You seem to be hanging on a comment I made, which you are now crystal clear about. Why? Are you trying to distract?

What you still haven't explained is why you feel that your need to exceed the speed limit is on a par with that of the emegency services.

Could you please do so?

A straightforward question of mine which I asked previously, and which you seem to have missed, or ignored-

Who are you serving when you exceed the speed limit cretin?

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cretin · June 2007

You seem to take great delight in pointing out people's mistakes - but you don't enjoy it when the same happens to you. It reinforces my opinion that you're not interested in debate on this topic. I think you enjoy this - you feel it gives you a chance to posture, to impress the people reading your words. Thats why when somebody points out a flaw in your argument, you can only respond with abuse, or more questions. Its pathetic. A waste of pixels.

I don't really feel any need whatsoever to exceed the speed limit. I just don't pay it much attention, since it has little relevance to my safety as a driver. By driving this way, I serve myself, but by focussing on and understanding the real road safety issues I serve those around me. I believe strongly that this attitude makes me a much safer driver than those who observe one aspect of road law as though they're on a personal quest, at the expense of learning anything else. You think that because many people think speed limits are largely irrelevant, it must follow that they tend to exceed them. The truth of the matter couldn't be more different. I'm obsessed with speed, but not the speed you think. I'm obsessed with speed thats suitable for the conditions. You'll never understand the difference, or if you do you'll never admit to it - and neither will the government.

Feel free to keep on about your favourite forum, and your favourite road safety campaigner. You clearly have time to waste. I however do not have time to waste to boost your ego.

Portsmouth = 1st city with a blanket 20mph limit

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