Forum home Road cycling forum Campaign

Portsmouth = 1st city with a blanket 20mph limit

linfordlunchboxlinfordlunchbox Posts: 4,834
edited June 2007 in Campaign
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/8506/20+MPH+Britain


"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"


"I\'d clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"
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  • I do like the way people say that 20mph is an 'unnatural' speed! Surely it is the maximum natural speed an average human can travel at? Assuming they don't use 'unnatural' methods such as bicycles or motor vehicles to increase this speed!

    What they really mean is "We're used to driving this fast and accept that 3500 deaths pa is the price we pay for it". Shame really, but then change always has it's resistors, even when in the long run it will be for the better.
  • graham_ggraham_g Posts: 652
    Props to Portsmouth - it takes some serious political testes to impliment something like this and I'm just glad to see that some of the countries local politicians actually own a pair.
  • JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
    "____ _______, from campaign group Safe Speed, said: "It's a knee-jerk reaction and an ill-founded one. If you get to the point where a speed limit feels unnatural, it affects a driver's attention. It could be quite marked and it could be quite dangerous - we just don't know"

    What a censored that man is. If you don't know, Paul, then shut your mouth! You one-man Press Release generator!

    Oh, if any of his lobotomised sycophants are about, tell him that his quote is laughable, will you. [:D]

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
  • dondaredondare Posts: 2,113
    20 mph is a very good speed when there are a lot of motor vehicles because it is very close to the speed at which the road has it's greatest carrying capacity.
    I suspect that it will lead to accidents such as shunts because pedestrians will be more inclined to cross anywhere at any time.
    Is 20mph legally enforcible? Councils can sometimes make a mess of things by setting limits lower than the law allows.


    Baby elephants? Pah!!
    This post contains traces of nuts.
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    Jaded, they are getting explosively irate over there. The 20 mph thread is getting longer and longer, with all sorts of drivel about how many poor, innocent, pregnant old ladies with big-eyed kittens are going to be killed because of the evil law (cont'd p94)
    The Swiss Scientologists are getting absolutely fulgurous with denying it.
    They even have a poster calling himself "Tourist Anthony"!

    Lovely jubbly!

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    Oh, and Smeggy says he is talking censored . Truth.....

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
  • JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
    Ah, the Swiss Troll!

    I should pop over there again to see someone replying to themselves with loads of smileys. I suppose PS needs the headcount, or he'd get rid of the smiley freak.

    Re 20mph, I look forward to seeing civilisation continue in Portsmouth. It has to be the way forward in most residential and office/shopping areas, given that many people are led to believe that the limit is a target.

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    Don't forget, Knobcheese the Narcoleptic lives in Portsmouth. What's he going to do now? I mean, 20mph is less than 40 mph even using Smithian maths, so he'll be falling asleep as soon as he leaves the driveway.

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
  • Flying_MonkeyFlying_Monkey Posts: 8,708
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jaded</i>

    "____ _______, from campaign group Safe Speed, said: "It's a knee-jerk reaction and an ill-founded one. If you get to the point where a speed limit feels unnatural, it affects a driver's attention. It could be quite marked and it could be quite dangerous - we just don't know"
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    It doesn't even work on its own terms as an argument. If you accept that it feels unnatural, surely this will mean drivers will be more alert and ready for the unexpected. It's comfort that causes complacency...

    But it's a completely spurious argument with no basis in evidence anyway... as usual, a teenage whine of 'it's so unfair!'

    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

    Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
    That I got no cerebellum
  • AndyGatesAndyGates Posts: 8,467
    Wow, well done Portsmouth. When the kiddysplatter statistics drop sharply, I hope other councils will take note.

    <font size="1">
    <b>No longer looking for a pennyfarthing as I've got some powerbocks instead. Casualty here I come!</b>
    It is by will alone I set my ride in motion.</font id="size1">
    Wanted: Penny farthing. Please PM me!
    Advice for kilted riders: top-tubes are cold.
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    Actually it is such a discussion point down here that it hasn't even made it into the local paper!

    The majority of residents are for it.

    What we have is the usual situation of "my right to drive fast on you roads is greater than you right to an environment where you feel safer."

    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    These are being rolled out across the country, it's tremendously encouraging.

    And a terrible irony:

    Pedestrian killed in lorry crash
    A woman walking with a pushchair was killed when she was hit by a 17.5 tonne lorry on a pedestrian crossing.
    The white goods vehicle collided with the unnamed woman in London Road in Portsmouth on Friday morning.

    The 57-year-old lorry driver, from High Wycombe, Bucks, has been arrested on suspicion of careless driving.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hamp ... 711795.stm
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    I see the promised "appearance" on the BBC news didn't occur.

    Perhaps a complaint about the suitability of a certain person who supports the use of dead people's details was effective!

    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • speshcpspeshcp Posts: 3,746
    As someone who actually lives in Portsmouth, I can't see what the fuss is all about.

    Given how narrow the majority of residential streets are (especially when lined with parked cars), you can't really drive faster than 25 mph with any confidence anyway. The new limits are only being applied to residential roads where the average speed is under 25mph already, so it's not going to make a big difference to journey times.

    Whether it makes a big difference to the pedestrian and cyclist casualty figures remains to be seen...

    The way the usual suspects at Safespod are carrying on, you'd think that the limit was being applied to every road in Portsmouth with the exception of the M275... <font color="purple"><font size="1"><rolls eyes></font id="size1"></font id="purple">

    The two links below should provide more info:

    New 20mph Zones
    FAQs

    <hr noshade size="1"><font size="1">"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein)
    </font id="size1">
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein)
  • tatanabtatanab Posts: 1,283
    I do not think anything has changed since the plans were reported some months ago.

    It is not a blanket speed limit, it applies to the East-West running residential roads. The North-South roads, i.e the roads that eventually leave the island are not effected. I do not remember the limit being applied to North-South residential roads.

    It is all very well introducing new rules (e.g. mobile phone usage), but who is going to enforce them? Nobody is the answer. Cunobelin says that locals say they want it, but locals usually say they want speed limits or speed humps or similar in their immediate neighbourhood, then when they get 200 yards from the front door they complain about the same things.
  • cuddy duckcuddy duck Posts: 3,211
    Must be some mistake.
    As box never tires of telling us, the dominance of the motor car is the one certainty in a world of flux.

    <font size="1"><font color="teal">There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. But no cyclists: that's one thing we can be sure of....</font id="teal"></font id="size1">
    <font size="1"><font color="teal">There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. But no cyclists: that\'s one thing we can be sure of....</font id="teal"></font id="size1">
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Perhaps a complaint about the suitability of a certain person who supports the use of dead people's details was effective! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Ah!

    Good work. He can't even make Portsmouth TV!

    I am worried, seriously. Sm1th's whole life, his whole reason for living is being eroded by his increasingly isolated position. The media can be harsh when they turn on those who feed off them.

    And Sm1th's paranoia is getting out of control:

    http://tinyurl.com/ytgc9v
  • BigWombleBigWomble Posts: 455
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rothbook</i>

    These are being rolled out across the country, it's tremendously encouraging.

    And a terrible irony:

    Pedestrian killed in lorry crash
    A woman walking with a pushchair was killed when she was hit by a 17.5 tonne lorry on a pedestrian crossing.
    The white goods vehicle collided with the unnamed woman in London Road in Portsmouth on Friday morning.

    The 57-year-old lorry driver, from High Wycombe, Bucks, has been arrested on suspicion of careless driving.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hamp ... 711795.stm

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    This is one problem - some vehicles are lethal at any speed, simply by virtue of their bulk. This cannot be fixed by lower speed limits, but requires safety features to be fitted to the vehicle instead. Even if the vehicle brakes sharply before impact, the collision with a cyclist or pedestrian can still be fatal. This fact tends to get lost in discussions of road safety. Portsmouth are a bit behind the times, as Hull got there much earlier, with major improvements in road casualty rates. As for what ____ _______ was on about, who knows.


    Ta - Arabic for moo-cow
    Ta - Arabic for moo-cow
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    Let's not forget that this is an extremely POPULAR move repeatedly asked for by those affected most - the residents, schools, and local community. They are the ones who have been requesting these steps to be taken and the Council is respecting their wishes with this implementation. Simply doing something that the majority of Portsmouth's voters wanted.

    It is the drivers passing through who are unhappy with this.

    Or are we simply claiming that the residents have no right to a say in what happens in the local community and environment?

    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    Now, Cunobelin, you KNOW that slowing down kills people, and speeding traffic only annoys you if you are weak (copyright Bonj). Who are these residents that anyone should pay attention to them?

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    Some of us just can't be edificated!



    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • yenrodcpyenrodcp Posts: 9,991
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tourist Tony</i>

    Now, Cunobelin, you KNOW that slowing down kills people, and speeding traffic only annoys you if you are weak (copyright Bonj). Who are these residents that anyone should pay attention to them?

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    How the hell can slowing down kill people [?]

    As stupid as it sounds: try removing the windscreen from car or many other things..

    A good idea would be a radar that sees other cars / people and slows the car whether that drivers throwing 60 or more kgs of weight behind an accelerator !

    [:p]
    [;)] \'tuono nel mio cuore...[:)]
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    I believe there was some research on this type of system in the 70's.

    Someone used a distance sensor to control speed, so that the car always kept a safe distance behind the preceding vehicle.

    Things were fine, and the system worked perfectly. Even at higher speeds (80+)the system was foolproof....

    Until it went out on the public roads and real fools got involved.

    The designers assumed that other vehicles were goingto comply. Unfortunately many vehicles simply saw it as a gap to drive into or through.

    Hence sensor thinks car should be 40 mph slower for the new distance, and slams on the anchors.

    A brilliant concept, but made impracticable by poor driving by other motorists.


    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by yenrod</i>



    How the hell can slowing down kill people [?]
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Ask Pa<i></i>ul Sm<b></b>ith. He's <i>convinced</i> that it does. And he proves it by misinterpreting statistics.

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    Having unnecessarily slow speed limits increases congestion, and that increases the time pedestrians are likely to have to wait to cross the road, which increases their likeliness to try to run across when it's not safe.
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Having unnecessarily slow speed limits increases congestion, and that increases the time pedestrians are likely to have to wait to cross the road, which increases their likeliness to try to run across when it's not safe.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Rubbish on all counts. Please justify another ridiculous claim.

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Having unnecessarily slow speed limits increases congestion, and that increases the time pedestrians are likely to have to wait to cross the road, which increases their likeliness to try to run across when it's not safe.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Numpty.
    Road capacity decreases in proportion to speed. How does slower increase congestion ?Have you driven on the M25 or the M42 since speed management was brought in?

    Oooh, I forgot, you are the informed person that thinks viruses are the same as bacteria. Every forum needs a village idiot.

    Who exactly are you on SS?

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    Untrue.......

    20 mph is in fact the optimum speed for travel on these types of road, and makes most efficient use of the road space.

    The time a pedestrian waits is a function of the courtesy ( or lack of it) of the drivers using the road. There should be no need to run across the road, this is an unfounded contrived assumption. At 20 mph, there is actually a smaller gap needed to cross safely than at 30mph.This would make the hypothetical running safer at 20mph!

    Even if it was true, and thousands of pedestrians were running across the road, the whole point is that the lowered speed increases their survival rate!

    Besides the argument itself is unfounded... To the locals who live in these roads the 20mph is not "unnecesarily slow" it is perfectly acceptable. They are the primary stakeholders here - it is their choice how their environment should be controlled, including speed limits.

    It is the transient drivers who feel that they can ride (drive?) roughshod over the wishes of the local population that are moraly wrong here.

    Unless of course you really think that you have a moral right to ignore the wishes of the local population?.




    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    Besides Bonjy, if you're doing 20mph and there is a ped crossing the road in front of you, <i>you have to</i> stop.

    And you don't like that.

    Great, isn't it?

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    Slightly OT....but talking about stopping for crossings.

    The driver who killed the woman on the pedestrian crossing in Portsmouth on Friday is to be charged.

    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
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