The Smoking Ban 01/07/07

Mister Paul · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

I also think people over-exaggerate the health detriment of smoking. It's not like you WILL DIE instantly.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And if someone made that claim then they would be exaggerating (how do you over-exaggerate?).

But no-one is making that claim.

__________________________________________________________
Road Safety Expert

Mister Paul · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

I also think people over-exaggerate the health detriment of smoking. It's not like you WILL DIE instantly.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm sure if you did not many would smoke would they! Your risks of dying younger are massively increased though aren't they, which is not really over-exaggerating anything.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yeah, it's the HOW massively and HOW MUCH younger that's often the exaggeration. Everyone dies at a different age anyway so it's impossible to say 'if this person hadn't have smoked they would have lived 4 years 3 months and 6 days older'.
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Well you did a bit better this time at keeping the bonjiness out. But it hasn't lasted.

__________________________________________________________
Road Safety Expert

The Bosscp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

I also think people over-exaggerate the health detriment of smoking. It's not like you WILL DIE instantly.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm sure if you did not many would smoke would they! Your risks of dying younger are massively increased though aren't they, which is not really over-exaggerating anything.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yeah, it's the HOW massively and HOW MUCH younger that's often the exaggeration. Everyone dies at a different age anyway so it's impossible to say 'if this person hadn't have smoked they would have lived 4 years 3 months and 6 days older'.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well you did a bit better this time at keeping the bonjiness out. But it hasn't lasted.

__________________________________________________________
Road Safety Expert
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eh? I'm not understanding what you're on about here.

The Bosscp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

If you want to eat somewhere where there is no smoke then you're restricted by the actions of the inconsiderate smokers who don't give a toss about anyone else around them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's the same with any group. If you want to eat somewhere where there's no-one wearing a green shirt, then you're restricted by the actions of the inconsiderate green shirt wearers that don't give a toss about anyone else around them.

Joe Sacco · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

If you want to eat somewhere where there is no smoke then you're restricted by the actions of the inconsiderate smokers who don't give a toss about anyone else around them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's the same with any group. If you want to eat somewhere where there's no-one wearing a green shirt, then you're restricted by the actions of the inconsiderate green shirt wearers that don't give a toss about anyone else around them.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep agree with Mister Paul and Asterix, definitely bonj/Ben like in it's stupidity.

Mister Paul · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

Well you did a bit better this time at keeping the bonjiness out. But it hasn't lasted.

__________________________________________________________
Road Safety Expert
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

eh? I'm not understanding what you're on about here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, of course you don't dear. <pats head>

__________________________________________________________
Road Safety Expert

Mister Paul · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

If you want to eat somewhere where there is no smoke then you're restricted by the actions of the inconsiderate smokers who don't give a toss about anyone else around them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's the same with any group. If you want to eat somewhere where there's no-one wearing a green shirt, then you're restricted by the actions of the inconsiderate green shirt wearers that don't give a toss about anyone else around them.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And what are the detremental health effects, and intrusive effects of green t-shirts then Bonj?

__________________________________________________________
Road Safety Expert

Joe Sacco · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mister Paul

If you want to eat somewhere where there is no smoke then you're restricted by the actions of the inconsiderate smokers who don't give a toss about anyone else around them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's the same with any group. If you want to eat somewhere where there's no-one wearing a green shirt, then you're restricted by the actions of the inconsiderate green shirt wearers that don't give a toss about anyone else around them.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And what are the detremental health effects, and intrusive effects of green t-shirts then Bonj?

__________________________________________________________
Road Safety Expert
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We might be wrong about bonj as even his weak attempts at debate were better than this weren't they?

The Bosscp · May 2007

The analogy is that what is offensive to one of your senses, smell, of smoking - in a similar way green shirts are offensive to one of my senses, sight. It's only being banned because some people find it offensive to their senses.
They're doing it under the guise of it being 'harmful to health', but you don't mean to tell me that being next to someone who smokes is anything like as harmful as smoking yourself. I'd question whether passive smoking actually is harmful to health, but the ban's been decided on now and I don't mind about it - the government have decided that they think it is so we'll just have to live with it.
It's unprovable whether passive smoking is harmful to health or not, because no two people are the same and you can't rewind someone's life and live it again but only change the variable as to whether people around them smoke or not. You can't really prove it by analysing groups of people, because there may be an indirect link - such as people who smoke tend to be mainly people who live in cities, and people who live in cities have worse health - so you can never just boil it down sufficiently to say that smoking is the only thing different.

There's detrimental health effects of smoke from cars' exhausts, do we ban them?
And who says that there NOT being any detrimental health effects is the norm? i.e. if you don't hang around smoky places, then you're actually IMPROVING your health relative to the average, as opposed to harming it by people smoking.

Besides, no-one's forcing anyone to smoke. If you believe smoking is harmful to health then you don't have to smoke, no-one's forcing you to.

Smeggers · May 2007

Is debating club closed for half term Bonj?

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

Joe Sacco · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

The analogy is that what is offensive to one of your senses, smell, of smoking - in a similar way green shirts are offensive to one of my senses, sight. It's only being banned because some people find it offensive to their senses.
They're doing it under the guise of it being 'harmful to health', but you don't mean to tell me that being next to someone who smokes is anything like as harmful as smoking yourself. I'd question whether passive smoking actually is harmful to health, but the ban's been decided on now and I don't mind about it - the government have decided that they think it is so we'll just have to live with it.
It's unprovable whether passive smoking is harmful to health or not, because no two people are the same and you can't rewind someone's life and live it again but only change the variable as to whether people around them smoke or not. You can't really prove it by analysing groups of people, because there may be an indirect link - such as people who smoke tend to be mainly people who live in cities, and people who live in cities have worse health - so you can never just boil it down sufficiently to say that smoking is the only thing different.

There's detrimental health effects of smoke from cars' exhausts, do we ban them?
And who says that there NOT being any detrimental health effects is the norm? i.e. if you don't hang around smoky places, then you're actually IMPROVING your health relative to the average, as opposed to harming it by people smoking.

Besides, no-one's forcing anyone to smoke. If you believe smoking is harmful to health then you don't have to smoke, no-one's forcing you to.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A green tee shirt is not a good analogy though. How about someone shining a torch right into your eyes, that is closer. Would you choose to eat at a restaraunt where someone shines a torch directly into your eyes the whole time you were in there?

Sounds stupid, but then so is your reasoning...

Smeggers · May 2007

... unless there is a condition where you have a pathological and physiological reaction to green tea shirts?

Vert-T-phobia?

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

The Bosscp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

A green tee shirt is not a good analogy though. How about someone shining a torch right into your eyes, that is closer. Would you choose to eat at a restaraunt where someone shines a torch directly into your eyes the whole time you were in there?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yeah but that's actually annoying, and besides you're not going to be able to read the menu.
Wearing a green t-shirt or smoking is only annoying if you decide to let it annoy you.

The Bosscp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smeggers

Is debating club closed for half term Bonj?

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm guessing here that presumably bonj is someone you don't like who you suspect me of representing because he keeps reregistering because you keep getting him banned for saying something you don't like that goes against your narrow minded little beliefs?

Smeggers · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smeggers

Is debating club closed for half term Bonj?

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm guessing here that presumably bonj is someone you don't like who you suspect me of representing because he keeps reregistering because you keep getting him banned for saying something you don't like that goes against your narrow minded little beliefs?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Got it in one!

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

Mister Paul · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smeggers

Is debating club closed for half term Bonj?

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm guessing here that presumably bonj is someone you don't like who you suspect me of representing because he keeps reregistering because you keep getting him banned for saying something you don't like that goes against your narrow minded little beliefs?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Aha! The giveaway post!

__________________________________________________________
Road Safety Expert

Mister Paul · May 2007

Bonj

I suggest you pop down to the local lung clinic and have a word with the doctors.

Then again, you probably wouldn't believe them.

__________________________________________________________
Road Safety Expert

natureboyz · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smeggers

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smeggers

Is debating club closed for half term Bonj?

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm guessing here that presumably bonj is someone you don't like who you suspect me of representing because he keeps reregistering because you keep getting him banned for saying something you don't like that goes against your narrow minded little beliefs?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Got it in one!
Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep,he certainly has.[:o)]

Joe Sacco · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

A green tee shirt is not a good analogy though. How about someone shining a torch right into your eyes, that is closer. Would you choose to eat at a restaraunt where someone shines a torch directly into your eyes the whole time you were in there?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yeah but that's actually annoying, and besides you're not going to be able to read the menu.
Wearing a green t-shirt or smoking is only annoying if you decide to let it annoy you.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah but smoke is also annoying. Smoke fills a room, it is not as though you can avoid it.

sore thumb · May 2007

Will this smoking ban apply to Operating Theatres?? I work in one and the smoke that comes of patients when we use a device called a diathermy can be quite severe. This device is used to stop bleeding or to cut tissue. It gives off smoke more harmfull than smoking.

We have NO protection from this smoke. No smoke extractors etc....

I a non-smoker am FORCED to breath in this smoke with NO protection.

Maybe the NHS could protect their own staff before telling the rest of the population to stop smoking. If I was a smoker I would also get support from the NHS. When I am breath it in as part of my job I get NO support.

Surgical smoke is created when tissue is heated and cellular fluid is vaporized by the thermal action of an energy source.

from the USA

Research has shown that smoke from electrosurgery is similar in content to that produced by a surgical laser. If you currently evacuate the plume from a laser, you should do likewise for smoke created by electrosurgical generators. Viral DNA, bacteria, carcinogens, and irritants are known to be present in electrosurgical smoke. Universal precautions indicate a smoke evacuation system should be used.

NIOSH (the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health) and the CDC (Center for Disease Control) have also studied electrosurgical smoke at length. They state:

"Research studies have confirmed that this smoke plume can contain toxic gases and vapors such as benzene, hydrogen cyanide, and formaldehyde, bioaerosols, dead and live cellular material (including blood fragments), and viruses."

also

Surgical smoke plume is generated during laser and electro-surgical procedures as tissue is ablated or cauterized with thermal tools. As a professional in the healthcare industry, you have most likely seen or smelled surgical smoke during procedures.
What is it?

What Is It?Surgical smoke plume is a potentially dangerous by-product generated from the use of lasers, electro-surgical pencils, ultrasonic devices, and other surgical instruments. As these instruments cauterize vessels and destroy (vaporize) tissue, fluid, and blood they create a gaseous material known as smoke plume. The amount, content, and particulate size of smoke plume can vary depending on the type of thermal tool used. In general lasers and ultrasonic devices have been known to create the largest particles (commonly called "plume"); electro-surgical pencils have been known to create the smallest particles. With regards to ultrasonic devices, it is important to note that while the manufacturer indicates this device produces a vapor, not smoke, these cool aerosols have an even higher chance of carrying infectious and live materials when compared to laser and electro surgical byproducts. Therefore as a general rule, smaller particles are considered more troublesome from a chemical standpoint, while larger particles are considered more troublesome from a biological standpoint.
Why evacuate it?

There are several reasons to evacuate surgical smoke:

Surgical smoke creates visibility problems during minimally invasive procedures and procedures where there is a lot of tissue ablation. This slows down surgical time, and could potentially increase the risk for complications. Additionally, removal of aerosols in the peritoneal cavity have shown to help reduce build up on camera lenses.

Surgical smoke has been shown to have a potentially hazardous effect on healthcare worker safety. Operating room staff are continually exposed to noxious odors, smells, and the hazardous potential of surgical smoke as they breathe.

Additionally, surgical smoke plume has shown the potential to have adverse negative effects on the patient when plume is not properly evacuated during laparoscopic/ endoscopic procedures.
Are there any health risks?

The primary health risk is inhalation of surgical smoke. Surgical smoke contains particulate, organic & inorganic chemicals, and microorganisms. Twenty seven (27) different chemicals have been isolated from pryrolized smoke plume/aersol including chemicals such as benzene, toluene, formaldehyde, cyanide, PAHs, carbon monoxide and acrolein. Many of these are found in cigarette smoke. The information in this section will outline the contents of plume and how each of these components can adversely impact healthcare workers' safety.

_______________________
If Nobody's a perfect cyclist then I must be Nobody.

Absinthe Minded · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco:

You seem to have missed the fact that they may want the choice of going to that restaraunt? Choosing not to go is hardly a choice is it!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">So, what you're saying is that some non smokers might like to go to a smokers restaurant but they don't want anybody smoking there?

So why do they want to go to a smokers restaurant?

<hr noshade size="1">Ja sam napisao ovo ovde samo zbog toga da izgledam pametan...

See My route to work!

The Bosscp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sore thumb

Will this smoking ban apply to Operating Theatres?? I work in one and the smoke that comes of patients when we use a device called a diathermy can be quite severe. This device is used to stop bleeding or to cut tissue. It gives off smoke more harmfull than smoking.

We have NO protection from this smoke. No smoke extractors etc....

I a non-smoker am FORCED to breath in this smoke with NO protection.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So you mean to tell me that when people smoke the smoke STAYS IN THEM and then all comes out at once on the operating table? Get away...

Uncle Mort · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sore thumb

Will this smoking ban apply to Operating Theatres?? I work in one and the smoke that comes of patients when we use a device called a diathermy can be quite severe. This device is used to stop bleeding or to cut tissue. It gives off smoke more harmfull than smoking.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, the ban will only prevent diathermy being performed in pubs and restaurants. I suppose you'll want to ban cigarettes and pipes from operating theatres next? Nanny state [}:)]

__________________
Six foot six he stood on the ground. He weighed two hundred and thirty five pounds
But I saw that giant of a man brought down by a baby elephant

stevekosky · May 2007

We recently buried a relative with severe emphasyma & heart problems after a lifetime of smoking and she subsisted the last 5 years in a state of misery.

My own parents, life long smokers, went much the same way.

Smoking WILL get you and it won't be nice.

I am sick of my kids coming home from the pub stinking of other peoples smoke and the impossibility of ignoring the foulness extruded by smokers around me in public places.

Sure you can smoke, but NOT around me thank you.

The Bosscp · May 2007

I just don't really buy this NIMBY attitude that 'passive' smoking is harmful, I don't know who invented that term but they must have had a vested interest in getting smoking banned, because if people hadn't been brainwashed into thinking smoking is still harmful if you're not actually doing it then people would still be smoking at their desks like in the sixties, and rightly so.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Yeah but smoke is also annoying. Smoke fills a room, it is not as though you can avoid it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's only annoying if you positively decide to get annoyed by it.

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

if people hadn't been brainwashed into thinking smoking is still harmful if you're not actually doing it then people would still be smoking at their desks like in the sixties, and rightly so.
[
.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's not the health aspect I don't like, it is the stinking clothes once you have been in a smoky pub and smoke from the end of a cigarette drafting into my face.
The damage to my health from spending an occasional night in a pub I'd imagine is pretty insignificant.

If it doesn't fit, force it.

andyoxon · May 2007

Roll on the ban...I was in a pub on Friday night and didn't enjoy the smokey atmosphere at all.

Active or passively inhaled cigarette smoke is carcinogenic, oxidising and generally damaging to health. My aunt and grandfather, both smokers, died of lung cancer and emphysema respectively... [:(]

I used to know a consultant respiratory physician in London who smoked - which goes to prove it isn't what you know about the dangers which makes the difference. Nicotine is addictive. And as demonstrated by non-(active) smoker Roy Castle, breathing large volumes of air in smokey venues is not good for your health.

Andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---

Tourist Tony · May 2007

Bonj:

"eh? I'm not understanding what you're on about here."

At last, some Bonjocks I can agree with!
Well, some people's idea of pleasure is smoking. The residue of their pleasure is smoke, which apparently, as it gets into my nose, mouth, eyes, clothes, food etc, only annoys me if I let it.
My pleasure is beer. The residue of my pleasure is urine.
Bonj, you know it will only annoy you if you let it when I stand on a chair and piss all over you...

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andyoxon

Roll on the ban...I was in a pub on Friday night and didn't enjoy the smokey atmosphere at all.

Active or passively inhaled cigarette smoke is carcinogenic, oxidising and generally damaging to health. My aunt and grandfather, both smokers, died of lung cancer and emphysema respectively... [:(]

I used to know a consultant respiratory physician in London who smoked - which goes to prove it isn't what you know about the dangers which makes the difference. Nicotine is addictive. And as demonstrated by non-(active) smoker Roy Castle, breathing large volumes of air in smokey venues is not good for your health.
Andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That is merely a theory Andy, not a fact. It can never be proven that any individual case of cancer is down to cigarette smoke because if cigarettes had never been invented people would still get lung cancer.

Nobody ever got laid because they were using Shimano

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tourist Tony

Bonj:

"eh? I'm not understanding what you're on about here."

At last, some Bonjocks I can agree with!
Well, some people's idea of pleasure is smoking. The residue of their pleasure is smoke, which apparently, as it gets into my nose, mouth, eyes, clothes, food etc, only annoys me if I let it.
My pleasure is beer. The residue of my pleasure is urine.
Bonj, you know it will only annoy you if you let it when I stand on a chair and piss all over you...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interesting analogy TT! [:)]

However, I think to make it a bit more accurate I would vapourise your urine and allow it to permiate the same medium that 2nd hand cigarette smoke inhabits!

The Smoking Ban 01/07/07

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