Forum home Road cycling forum Training, fitness and health

FAQ: increasing your base endurance/etc

1235»

Posts

  • mog812mog812 Posts: 66
    I read a lot about Cadence, and about how it helps...
    Though without having a cycle computer to monitor my Cadence, I was wondering if, perhaps a... Metronome beat of 90bpm played through an MP3 player might be of help ? (naturally, it wouldn't be too loud, so I can still hear whats about me)
    And then maybe different tracks of different speeds... only for a short while till I get used to the pace, as I'm sure too much of listening to that, will end up sounding like I have a somewhat ruinessly slow woodpecker in my head :shock: lol
  • whyamiherewhyamihere Posts: 7,398
    Not everyone's ideal cadence is 90 rpm, that's just a ballpark figure (mine tends to be over 100rpm on the flat). Just ride how you feel comfortable if it's causing no issues.
  • sampras38sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    Pross wrote:
    Why would anyone not drink from choice? There are some odd people out there who think they'll look soft if they carry food and drink or if they aren't grinding a massive gear at 50rpm. Personally I'd rather be riding as hard as I can in the most comfort I can.

    When I first got into cycling seriously I remember being told by some riders that the sport does tend to attract eccentrics, or those old schoolers wo just don't want to move with the times. I'm still amazed at some of the rubbish I hear and read. Pretty much every single sport has evolved over the years and with it vastly improved nutritional advice.
  • daveyroidsdaveyroids Posts: 223
    sampras38 wrote:
    jaijaicp wrote:
    I have noticed almost 100% of the guys on my club rides drink very very little, some dont even have a bottle on the bike!I try and drink at least 400ml per hour.Some fella even told me not to bother AT ALL with carb based drinks through the winter.There are some seasoned cyclists out there who do know what they are on about, just take all advice with a pinch of salt!

    "A legend in his own mind..."

    You often get people like this, not just in sport but all walks of life. Just because someone's been doing something a long time does not always mean they're doing it right. It's like they feel like a hard man for riding without eating or drinking. Some people just won't be told and I'm happy not to tell em..;-)

    Yeah, think we have all come across people like this. On club runs I have noticed that some people drink quite a bit now especially younger riders and newer riders to the sport. I have noticed that others have tool canisters in one bottle cage and a 500ml bottle in the other with only about half drank by the end of the ride. I always worry, especially on a hot day, that they will become ill during the ride but so far everyone appears to handle their lack of fluid intake fine. I take 2x 750ml bottles which usually need filling half way round. If I'm on a long non stop ride I fix a cage on the seatpost and take a further 500ml bottle in my back pocket. Fluids are the most important thing for me to take out on a ride.
  • daveyroidsdaveyroids Posts: 223
    whyamihere wrote:
    Not everyone's ideal cadence is 90 rpm, that's just a ballpark figure (mine tends to be over 100rpm on the flat). Just ride how you feel comfortable if it's causing no issues.

    Tend to agree. I have advised people over the years to drop a gear and raise cadence as they have been grinding in a high gear. Apart from that each to their own. With riding a variety of bikes I find on my mountain bike / hybrid I have a higher cadence than my road bike. On my fixed gear, 'well' that depends on a lot of factors.
  • I tend to find that if i dont have a drink before a ride it has a real effect on performance, fluid intake on a ride seems to vary greatly.
  • sampras38sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    I tend to find that if i dont have a drink before a ride it has a real effect on performance, fluid intake on a ride seems to vary greatly.

    Well you do need to be hydrated before you ride, not just on the ride itself.
  • daveyroids wrote:
    sampras38 wrote:
    jaijaicp wrote:
    I have noticed almost 100% of the guys on my club rides drink very very little, some dont even have a bottle on the bike!I try and drink at least 400ml per hour.Some fella even told me not to bother AT ALL with carb based drinks through the winter.There are some seasoned cyclists out there who do know what they are on about, just take all advice with a pinch of salt!

    "A legend in his own mind..."

    You often get people like this, not just in sport but all walks of life. Just because someone's been doing something a long time does not always mean they're doing it right. It's like they feel like a hard man for riding without eating or drinking. Some people just won't be told and I'm happy not to tell em..;-)

    Yeah, think we have all come across people like this. On club runs I have noticed that some people drink quite a bit now especially younger riders and newer riders to the sport. I have noticed that others have tool canisters in one bottle cage and a 500ml bottle in the other with only about half drank by the end of the ride. I always worry, especially on a hot day, that they will become ill during the ride but so far everyone appears to handle their lack of fluid intake fine. I take 2x 750ml bottles which usually need filling half way round. If I'm on a long non stop ride I fix a cage on the seatpost and take a further 500ml bottle in my back pocket. Fluids are the most important thing for me to take out on a ride.

    Perhaps they only drink when thirsty.
  • springtide9springtide9 Posts: 1,731
    I completely agree with all of the above information regards to taking on fluids, but fluid quantity does hugely depend on 'relative effort' ( as well as duration & temperature )

    i.e. You'd probably get away with no fluids if you rode for 4 hr ride in Zone 1, but it would be a different story if you rode the same amount of time in Zone 3 with regards to a proper amount of fluid intake.

    So if am old club member drinks nothing on an 80 mile ride, it might just be that his relative effort was pretty low so didn't need much fluid, even if younger legs were riding hard to keep up with him :D
    Simon
  • There is a common misunderstanding, more widespread the older people are (my grandfather swore by this), that sweating equals getting tired. Because of this they belive that if you sweat more, you will be more tired, therefore getting dehydrated and sweating less, makes you get less tired.
    It is very possible to ride long distances without drinking, but you will without a shadow of a doubt ride it faster if you stay hydrated.

    If not drinking made you ride faster, don't you think every pro rider would use this strategy?
  • I've found that base mile-wise, riding fixed is quite a handy training tool..especially if you're pushed for time. for one, you're constantly pedalling, which makes a massive difference to the efficiency of the workout. a few other pointers are here..
    http://andbethere.blogspot.it/2013/01/r ... inter.html

    hope it's useful :)
    Fairly regular racer currently located in Sicily. http://www.andbethere.com - I like to write about cycling :)
  • I used to ride with someone who claimed they didnt need to drink when riding because they had adapted to exercise so well. Surprising how they only really seemed to struggle on say, a 2 hour ride in 25C rather than a 1.5 hour in 18C. Cant quite work it out myself....
  • trickydiscotrickydisco Posts: 173
    This book is worth a read on the subject of hydration

    http://www.humankinetics.com/products/a ... aterlogged

    http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/e ... -hydration
    Marathon runners were not alone in this belief. Cyclists in the race that was considered the ultimate physical challenge—the Tour de France—were advised similarly: “Avoid drinking when racing, especially in hot weather. Drink as little as possible, and with the liquid not too cold. It is only a question of will power. When you drink too much you will perspire, and you will lose your strength.” As a result only “four small bottles for a long stage (of the Tour), it was frowned upon to drink more” (Fotheringham, 2002, p. 180).

    There is no evidence that this advice was especially dangerous, produced ill health or death, or seriously impaired athletic performance. Indeed, the most rapid improvements in marathon running performances occurred from 1920 to 1970 (figure 1, page xiv) in the period when athletes were not drinking much during races and were generally ignorant of the science of distance running, including the value of specific diets (Noakes, 2003).

    A plateau in running times occurred after 1970. This effect is most apparent in the 42 km marathon, suggesting that all human runners, marathoners especially, are rapidly approaching the physical limits of human running ability. Note that in the period of 1900 to 1970, marathon runners were actively discouraged from drinking during exercise. The introduction and encouragement of frequent drinking after 1976 were not associated with any sudden increase in world-record performances in the marathon. Rather, an opposite trend is apparent (figure 1). The same trend exists also at the shorter–distance races, during which athletes do not usually drink.
  • K0PowerK0Power Posts: 30
    I was always under the impression if you wait until your thirsty to take a drink of water you have left it too late...
  • K0Power wrote:
    I was always under the impression if you wait until your thirsty to take a drink of water you have left it too late...

    I think a few relevant points are that:

    Firstly, the 'hydrate or die' message has been most strongly pushed by the sports drink industry.

    Secondly, much of the research showing a decline in performance with 'dehydration' does not adequately account for confounding factors, especially heat stress. Put someone on an ego and work them till they are sweating buckets and seriously overheated and, no surprise, they fatigue. Work them just as hard but put the in front of a huge fan that will evaporate the sweat and cool them - as would happen when cycling along a real road at speed - and the fatigue level is likely to be much less, even though they have lost just as much fluid.

    Thirdly, if there is one thing that our evolutionary history is likely to have gifted us, as hunters who might take days to track prey, is the ability to tolerate significant levels of dehydration.

    Of course really severe hydration is a serious thing, but I would bet that for most sports performances, over-hydration is a more serious problem than dehydration, unless the weather is particularly hot. In fact, I have read a number of articles detailing deaths during sports event due to over-hydration. For example, the following, discussing the ides of the author of the book cited above.

    http://www.outsideonline.com/blog/outdo ... ports.html

    Thirst is very probably the most accurate guide to when and how much you need to drink.
    "an original thinker… the intellectual heir of Galileo and Einstein… suspicious of orthodoxy - any orthodoxy… He relishes all forms of ontological argument": jane90.
  • I read the Noakes book, Waterlogged, some time ago. When I posted about it on some cycling forums I got called a troll.


    Remember the sports drink industry funds most research into hydration. I doubt we see all the research, only what they want us to see, and much research is designed to prove we need to consume their products.
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Having been in a lab and used for a sports drink experiment - I'd not put much faith in their findings.

    The human body is pretty sophisticated so drinking to thirst will be a very good guide.
  • in the summer here in northern italy it is hot and humid, and exerting. I have struggled terribly, as an experiment counter to dear ole Ray Mears' advice. He said to thoroughly hydrate in the morning, 1,5l before breakfast and there is little chance of stress during the day from dehydration. Thirst, yes, and one must make efforts to hydrate as the body needs it, but this is sage advice. I can manage 6 hour stints with thirst but not stress in 35deg and stifling humidity.

    I don't know what more learned nutritionists make of this advice, but practically it works for me, though it is not always so easy to thoroughly hydrate with 1,5l in the morning but afterwards it feels very good, also for the mind because of no buzzing desire to satiate.
  • rayjayrayjay Posts: 1,384
    I ride a lot in just my spiderman underpants.

    On longer journeys I prefer to stay in a Premier inn.

    hope that helps
  • MantasMantas Posts: 33
    I used to cycle last summer, it was very hot and long trips. but you can always stop in a petrol stations and get some extra water ot water you like. When the second water butltle almost empty I am start looking for a "water station". In this way I have never issues with hydration.
  • Ed_PEd_P Posts: 12
    insella wrote:
    in the summer here in northern italy it is hot and humid, and exerting. I have struggled terribly, as an experiment counter to dear ole Ray Mears' advice. He said to thoroughly hydrate in the morning, 1,5l before breakfast and there is little chance of stress during the day from dehydration. Thirst, yes, and one must make efforts to hydrate as the body needs it, but this is sage advice. I can manage 6 hour stints with thirst but not stress in 35deg and stifling humidity.

    I don't know what more learned nutritionists make of this advice, but practically it works for me, though it is not always so easy to thoroughly hydrate with 1,5l in the morning but afterwards it feels very good, also for the mind because of no buzzing desire to satiate.

    I am hoping to spend this summer cycling in Trentino; I have spent some time there and it is absolutely stunning! Any advice you may have would be much appreciated. At the moment I am training for the London Bikeathon https://bloodwise.org.uk/event-challeng ... -bikeathon it is pretty warm over here in the UK and have needed to keep well-hydrated over the last week!
  • pbassredpbassred Posts: 208
    Am I the only one here to notice that no one is posting any thing to do with increasing base endurance? How to get through a ride, certainly, but nothing about increase.
  • JBrown23JBrown23 Posts: 14
    pbassred wrote:
    Am I the only one here to notice that no one is posting any thing to do with increasing base endurance? How to get through a ride, certainly, but nothing about increase.

    Back to the topic, I wold recommend a variety of training types... Base endurance is built up of the body's ability to supply oxygen to the working muscles and clear metabolites. So both these systems need to be stressed and adapted. In practical terms, this is probably best done with long steady-state, high-intensity interval training, lactate threshold training, and supra-maximal efforts (10 sec max bursts repeats, for example). Plus, variety is the spice of life, as we all know!
  • Without a power meter is my Strava calculated power on a 15 minute (ish) 9% to 10% climb at around or just below 95% max heart rate a reasonable approximation of FTP? If not I'm thinking it's at least a reasonable benchmark to measuring improvements in (return to) fitness?

    I'm assuming that doing lots of these sort of hills is also a good way to get fitter? Typically 2 rides per week; 2 hour 900m / 4 hour 1700m (plus cake n coffee stops), legs feel tired for a few days after each ride, also takes a couple of days for resting heart rate to get back to normal.
    I want to climb hills so badly;
    and I climb hills so badly
  • Without a power meter is my Strava calculated power on a 15 minute (ish) 9% to 10% climb at around or just below 95% max heart rate a reasonable approximation of FTP? If not I'm thinking it's at least a reasonable benchmark to measuring improvements in (return to) fitness?
    FTP will be less than your maximal power over 15 minutes. Like about 8% - 15% less.

    Yes, climbing speeds on steep ascents are good benchmarks as i mentioned here:
    http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... ing-19175/

    As to what training is best, that's a variable feast.
  • Thanks, good article
    I want to climb hills so badly;
    and I climb hills so badly
  • Start with endurance rides before introducing higher intensities

    If time constraints preclude endurance rides exclusively, then substitute long interval sessions as needed

    For endurance rides, try to stay below threshold most of the time and flat courses will make this easier

    Endurance ride duration = As long as you can ride without being trashed for the remainder of the day or failing to be recovered for your next ride

    Duration able to ride should naturally increase from week to week

    Keep an eye on fatigue by monitoring resting heart rate, perceived effort, stress, sleep quality, energy levels, appetite, mood and motivation

    Introduce higher intensities once able to comfortably ride 50% of target event duration

    Decreasing cardiac drift is an indicator of improved endurance

    Start with longer intervals like 2 x 20 as fast as you can ride without being trashed for the remainder of the day or failing to be recovered for your next ride

    Once acclimated to longer intervals, then introduce shorter intervals for both aerobic conditioning as well as event specialization

    If you have or are interested in a smart trainer, indoor training can have benefits such as time efficiency, lack of interruptions, fixed power and controlled conditions both for both precise stimulus as well as precise measurement of relationship between effort to power

    Indoor time trials using Zwift can be reliable indicator of progress due to controlled conditions
  • l0n3riderl0n3rider Posts: 6
    totally agree with Typical Analytical above ..

    adding something which works for me ..
    1. endurance ride
    this will be very boring .. to do it with friends will be better. try to ride more than 90 minutes per session .. i read somewhere .. 90 minutes ride without food intake will teach your body to get energy from various sources .. build the endurance

    if you do not have 90 minutes .. fasted ride is a good alternative ..

    the pace .. you should be able to converse with your friend .. or for me i will try to make sure my heartrate is between 130-150 .. there is a discussion on "cardiac output" method training .. popular among MMA fighter ..

    and to make it more interesting .. i will train my pedaling technique as well for efficiency

    some said you need 1000km for endurance ride .. some said 50 hrs .. to me it's more on whether you can do it properly or not .. based on some readings .. we need 8 weeks to make sure our heart adapt properly to our training.. cardiac output method ..

    how do you know you are making progress .. monitor you condition .. resting heartrate, heartrate variability .. after sometimes you should be able to ride faster at the same heartrate .. generally speaking

    2. interval
    once done with endurance ride. you can start with interval .. my favourite would be russian steps .. and more advance would be high pace over/under threshold ..

    hopefully it helps .. sorry if not
  • Vino'sGhostVino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Heres what I'm doing and why.

    War and peace sorry don't know how to annswer the op question without background and some level of detail.


    I'm working on my endurance base / power endurance at the moment and Im doing the following.

    during week a mix of hour to hour and a half turbo sessions which develop over a 7 week period. (2 lots of three weeks with a rest in the middle. its a level i can just about do whilst doing everything else i need to do and because the sessions are different I can look forward to different sessions. My favourites are the lower cadence high resistance because i like grinding away

    low cadence high resistance 45 mins -60mins plus warm up cool down i try and keep this 60 - 90% of FTP but at the end i always get carried away and thats a mistake.
    under overs time varying from 20x one minutes intervals in two sets to 3mins on 1 min off x 7
    10, 15 and 20 min intervals x2 building over the block at 90% ish of ftp. sometimes i can only manage a bit less, sometimes a bit more but i always get better after the first 5 mins or so irrespective of type of warm up or duration. I think it might be just settling into it but after 30 years perceived effort, heart rate or power it still feels uncomfortable at the beginning.

    At the weekend Im doing a fast stead group ride that keeps my interest, it lasts for 2 - 2.5 hours on the Saturday and requires the odd effort (since i need to lose some weight).
    On the Sunday I'm doing 3.5 to 4 hours steady trying to maintain about 50 to 70% of FTP, it seems easy at the beginning but i'm tired in the afternoon. but good to go by Tuesday. I go rain or shine, I like the work.

    Im trying to avoid working in VO2Max zones too often because I've got enough of that coming up after Christmas.


    Im averaging about 10.5 hours a week and I'm just able to cope with it without it taking over.

    In January I will have the endurance to change the focus and do a more specific FTP building block so I'm ready for some good events in Spring. The only reason why i do VO2max / FTP work is because my ability to ride tempo gets rocket fuelled and i can smash out long events grinding my mates into gibbering mush in the process. I don't race anymore so no need for too many anaerobic sessions at anytime of the year apart from giving myself a quick boost.

    At that point my volume will drop and the intensity increase and I'll feel good and go well. but if i don't have the aerobic and power endurance base now, I know i wont be able to get where i want to be in June and July. (unless i just do base and then minute efforts and i hate them)

    As a guide i don't use all the bells and whistles that power training brings, because for me, life gets in the way and i need to enjoy cycling and exercise too. I don't want to be a slave to it and I've no intention of fretting constantly that I'm not where i should be or that if i stop because i have a cold that the year is over. instead i tend to work in blocks during which i have a plan and a general purpose/objective and work generally through it. Though possibly not religiously since i tailor it to physical and mental freshness. The level of work I've outlined above is reasonably challenging for me but still enjoyable.

    my 2 penneth worth.
Sign In or Register to comment.