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FAQ: increasing your base endurance/etc

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  • CLIMBING lots of cyclists think that they will go faster by sitting whenver possible, i have seen cyclists try to apply this rule to short, 5 minute hill climbs- it just doesnt work, the reason many of the pros do this is that they are climbing up mountains that will last for sometimes over an hour and usually have more gradual gradients. If you watch cycling regularly you will also notice that many of the 'climbers' stand often eg. Roberto Heras, Oscar Periero as this is their preffered style of climbing. What im trying to get across is that on british climbs (which are usually steeper than european ones) you will not always go faster by stayng seated and it may be that you climb more efficiently when you vary your position anyway.

    xnk
    xnk
  • NervouselkNervouselk Posts: 1,071
    I dont believe you rode 100miles without water! and wont unless you can prove it. Did you do it at 10mph?
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by silverfox</i>

    (I can trackstand but don't do it often, that'll be coz i'm not as good as it as i think i am though)
    I`ve watched you guys do this at traffic lights its truly amazing. Wish I could do it, have the odd problem with one foot on the deck. Having said that watched a rider on the London to Brighton attempt a track stand had a wobble fell off and took a stream of riders with him, wasnt very popluar when they all got untangled. I rode off with a smile on my face and through what a plunker.

    where theres a hill some may have to walk
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I think it should be mentioned that a 'track stand' is much easier to do on a fixed gear track bike, because you 'rock' the bike back and forth with you legs. On a freewheel it is much harder, and is either a complete balancing act with the bike not rocking forwards or backwards, - OR you can rock backwards by pulling on the bars and rock forwards with your legs.

    Difficult to put into words...

    I can definitely do it on a track bike, on a free wheel I could fall off so I only do it when I'm on my own. If I feel myself going over, I just whip my foot out the pedal quick.
    Bootle, Merseyside
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Simon L2</i>

    Thanks for the advice, but since I've been doing this for 35 years and am now in the form of my life I'll stick with what I know. Cyclists in the fifties and sixties swore by coffee and brandy, but eschewed water. Cyclists used to eat steak. It's a fashion thing.
    Did a 120 on Sunday morning and a 165 on Monday, and for the latter I did take on liquids along the way - it was a warm day - but far less than my companion, who was perspiring in a big way.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    What do you mean 'form of your life'? Are you a 1st cat. racer or something ... I doubt it!

    Look, of course you can keep long distance, low power, endurance efforts going and dehydrate yourself by not drinking. BUT you will almost certainly be reducing you power output. How many Pro cyclist don't drink fluids (energy drinks these days) on a race >50 miles (i.e. the majority of their races other than TTs)? I'll tell you ... NONE.

    Drinking water does not make you sweat more, your body temperature and the ambient temperature determine how much you sweat. Well yeh, O.K., if you dehydrate yourself and dry yourself out like a parchment, then I guess you won't sweat .. you'll .. erm.. die ... eventually.

    You are full of tosh. The problem with cycling is that it is full of old muppets like you who perpetuate old wives' tales and bad habbits.

    When I think back to what some of the 'old, wise (ahem) men' of the club I was in as a teenager told me to do, I cringe!
    Bootle, Merseyside
  • redbikerredbiker Posts: 273
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Simon L2</i>

    Thanks for the advice, but since I've been doing this for 35 years and am now in the form of my life I'll stick with what I know. Cyclists in the fifties and sixties swore by coffee and brandy, but eschewed water. Cyclists used to eat steak. It's a fashion thing.
    Did a 120 on Sunday morning and a 165 on Monday, and for the latter I did take on liquids along the way - it was a warm day - but far less than my companion, who was perspiring in a big way.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    www.severnfitness.co.uk
  • Can i add another to your "don't stand up" rules above,

    -unless your name is Lance.
  • bajs-eyebajs-eye Posts: 42
    Ah the no handed trackstand - here it is

    http://www.63xc.com/gregg/101_a.htm

    and also here's the instructions

    http://www.63xc.com/gregg/101_12.htm

    As for me I trackstand with one foot unclipped (just in case) on a single speed. I find that you have to have an incline or a surface imperfection (difficult to find in the UK I know) to roll back down. Sometimes I have to take a dab sometimes I could stay there forever.

    As for 100 miles with no water, I'm not a big drinker but I think that I would die and if not wouldn't need to pee for at least a week until the drip had re-hydrated me.

    Riding a single speed makes you have to stand for the bigger hills otherwise you would go so slow you'd fall off. It is wierd though coming back to a geared bike and not quite knowing whether to sit and change gear or stand and see it through. I think its probably down to experience and how long the hill is if you can make it standing without knackering yourself so much that you can't accellerate off the top then I would go for it, if not not.
  • Steve JCSteve JC Posts: 19
    I dont get it, good tough hills are such a rare commodity in many parts of the UK and everyone is worried about getting a bit of lactic acid build up!

    I say relish the hills, get stuck into them and get used to standing up, the more you do it the easier and more satisfying it is, ok in terms of basic efficiency you might be better of sitting but this is the training forum not the sunday picnic trip.
  • woody-somwoody-som Posts: 1,001
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ROBTAX</i>

    As a newbie to long rides - how do people transport such massive quantities of liquid? Stop at garages? Take a rucksack?

    RC
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">2 bottle on the bike , and two on the seatpost. profile design do a double bracket that fits the seatpost, and holds two bottles for œ20.
  • muxloemuxloe Posts: 17
    Hello all. I'm relative new to this cycling game and am interested in the climbing question. I posted a similar message on the beginners forum but thought I'd also ask here. I live in Cumbria and am faced with hills, often steep and sometimeslong. Individual hills by themselves aren't so bad, but most of my rides seem to invlove several frequent sharp short (1/2) mile climbs with the ccassional longer mile plus climbs. There is a cumulative effect, so by the umpteenth hill the body tires. Therefore I find that staying in the saddle for all climbs is not possible, sometimes coz of steepness and also coz of weariness. So what's the best position to adopt when climbimg out of the saddle in terms of hand position and body position on the bike (road variety with drop bars). Any advise from those more experienced than I much appreciated.
    ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
  • ShanecpShanecp Posts: 2,224
    Muxloe, have you read Gonzo's post earlier in this thread?

    ____________________________
    Rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy...
    ____________________________
  • onewallfreeonewallfree Posts: 415
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by woody-som</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ROBTAX</i>

    As a newbie to long rides - how do people transport such massive quantities of liquid? Stop at garages? Take a rucksack?

    RC
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">2 bottle on the bike , and two on the seatpost. profile design do a double bracket that fits the seatpost, and holds two bottles for œ20.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    I just bought one of those things from Minoura. Doesn't look very stable to me, but I haven't tried it out properly yet.

    I need to take loads of water because I sweat profusely. If friends drink as much as I do, they need the toilet A LOT. Still, to ride 100 miles without water, you must be a camel.

    TRACKSTANDS: Love to do them at lights and in traffic. It's much easier to do if you are facing up a slight incline so the bike rolls backwards, and if you're standing on the pedals. Also, leave yourself a good yard or so of space in front of you to move into to help keep balance.

    Jens is not happy
    <font>
    Me via SMS: Are you home yet?
    Colin on my Trice: No. I\'m completely lost at the moment, but I\'m having loads of fun!</font>
  • woody-somwoody-som Posts: 1,001
    [/quote]2 bottle on the bike , and two on the seatpost. profile design do a double bracket that fits the seatpost, and holds two bottles for œ20.
    [/quote]
    I just bought one of those things from Minoura. Doesn't look very stable to me, but I haven't tried it out properly yet.

    I need to take loads of water because I sweat profusely. If friends drink as much as I do, they need the toilet A LOT. Still, to ride 100 miles without water, you must be a camel.

    [/quote]
    The minoura and tacx ones are different from the profile design one. The minoura and tacx fit to the saddle and require you to buy bottle cages. the profile design one fits to the seat post, and come ready to accept the bottles.
  • onewallfreeonewallfree Posts: 415
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by woody-som</i>
    The minoura and tacx ones are different from the profile design one. The minoura and tacx fit to the saddle and require you to buy bottle cages. the profile design one fits to the seat post, and come ready to accept the bottles.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Yeah, I liked the design of the Profile one much better, but there wasn't room under my saddle for it.

    Jens is not happy
    <font>
    Me via SMS: Are you home yet?
    Colin on my Trice: No. I\'m completely lost at the moment, but I\'m having loads of fun!</font>
  • bagpusscpbagpusscp Posts: 2,907
    Long distance riding means PLENTY of fluids .I used dirolite.{I think i've spelt it right?}Great for replacing lost body salts. But me been a big bloke I sweated alot . Away 500ml an hour in hot weather is a must.

    bagpuss
    bagpuss
  • peejay78peejay78 Posts: 3,378
    track stand: i do it on a freewheel; there's a sweet spot and it's fairly easy.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by onewallfree</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by woody-som</i>
    The minoura and tacx ones are different from the profile design one. The minoura and tacx fit to the saddle and require you to buy bottle cages. the profile design one fits to the seat post, and come ready to accept the bottles.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Yeah, I liked the design of the Profile one much better, but there wasn't room under my saddle for it.

    Jens is not happy
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    To come back to that, the Minoura one is absolute rubbish. It comes with the most ill-thought out mounting system of a thin plate that clamps behind your saddle rails. If you buy one, I reckon you'll be very lucky if it fits your saddle out of the box. Was no good on any of the five saddles I've tried it with.

    It's good because you can still mount a small-ish saddle pack under it, but be prepared to fabricate you're own mounting bracket or it will come loose constantly.

    Piece of junk.

    <font size="1">
    Jens is not happy</font id="size1">
    <font>
    Me via SMS: Are you home yet?
    Colin on my Trice: No. I\'m completely lost at the moment, but I\'m having loads of fun!</font>
  • oldwelshmanoldwelshman Posts: 4,733
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by muxloe</i>

    Hello all. I'm relative new to this cycling game and am interested in the climbing question. I posted a similar message on the beginners forum but thought I'd also ask here. I live in Cumbria and am faced with hills, often steep and sometimeslong. Individual hills by themselves aren't so bad, but most of my rides seem to invlove several frequent sharp short (1/2) mile climbs with the ccassional longer mile plus climbs. There is a cumulative effect, so by the umpteenth hill the body tires. Therefore I find that staying in the saddle for all climbs is not possible, sometimes coz of steepness and also coz of weariness. So what's the best position to adopt when climbimg out of the saddle in terms of hand position and body position on the bike (road variety with drop bars). Any advise from those more experienced than I much appreciated.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    I had similar terrain when I lived in S.Wales. For the longer gradual climbs I used to twiddle a low gear with high cadence but on the steeper sections rode out of saddle, sometimes for a few hundred yards.
    I found most effective position for out of saddle climbing was hands on brake levers, leaning slightly forward so weight was over handlebars.
    The important thing was to make sure to pull up on pedal stroke and not just climb pushing on pedals.
  • jaijaicpjaijaicp Posts: 206
    I cannot believe it! I have been practising my trackstands and wouldnt you know it my base endurance has improved dramatically!Seriously though, I think someone in the know needs to mention base endurance mileage, and how to build on it without overtraining etc, as I am sure I am not the only one who over does things!Also what % of MHR we should be riding at for optimal endurance building.

    "A legend in his own mind..."
    "A legend in his own mind..."
  • Mark.ScpMark.Scp Posts: 514
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jaijai</i>

    I cannot believe it! I have been practising my trackstands and wouldnt you know it my base endurance has improved dramatically!Seriously though, I think someone in the know needs to mention base endurance mileage, and how to build on it without overtraining etc, as I am sure I am not the only one who over does things!Also what % of MHR we should be riding at for optimal endurance building.

    "A legend in his own mind..."
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    If i am right in sayingm, i think the 65-80% of your mhr (max HR) is the region to be training at in order to be improving base endurance.... correct me if i am wrong, please =D

    Mark

    In sport, losing is the end of the world


    In sport, losing is the end of the world .....
    la marmotte xD

  • woody-somwoody-som Posts: 1,001
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
    If i am right in sayingm, i think the 65-80% of your mhr (max HR) is the region to be training at in order to be improving base endurance.... correct me if i am wrong, please =D

    Mark

    In sport, losing is the end of the world


    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    According to the article in the new edition of C+, then yes 50-80% of MHR for most of the training. Several of the heart rate monitor training books also suggest this as a base builder.
  • timestartimestar Posts: 226
    The fact that you can ride long distances, and have been doing for some time, without water does not make it a good thing to do. Read any half decent text on exercise and flid intake, and they will tell you need that fluid and you need it before you feel thirsty. Drinking more fluid does not make you sweat more. Your body needs fluid to function effectively.
  • jaijaicpjaijaicp Posts: 206
    I have noticed almost 100% of the guys on my club rides drink very very little, some dont even have a bottle on the bike!I try and drink at least 400ml per hour.Some fella even told me not to bother AT ALL with carb based drinks through the winter.There are some seasoned cyclists out there who do know what they are on about, just take all advice with a pinch of salt!

    "A legend in his own mind..."
    "A legend in his own mind..."
  • The ride without fluid is a 'hard man's' training technique - guys like John Woodburn still come out on rides without a bottle, but he does visit the occasional cafe! I have found that using a creatine supplement helps with recovery and hydration and so don't tend to drink as much on a ride as I used too - I also don't get cramp as much. If you're planning on doing lots of base miles and back-to-back training days, eating and drinking on the rides is essential, otherwise you'll suffer. As someone who clocked up to 3000km a month last winter, I'd have died in a ditch in a week without drinks and food on rides.

    With regards to climbing styles, it depends on you as a rider and your bike set-up. Latest research suggests that getting out the saddle is just as efficient as seated, provided you've got the core body / muscle strength to sustain the position. Learning to ride efficiently both seated or standing helps with the recovery of muscle groups - particularly useful for long days in the mountains. Riding out the saddle with hands on the drops is probably the most powerful climbing position, but requires good core body strength and best saved for short blasts / accelerations ~5 mins rather than prolonged efforts
  • In regards to the no-drinking philosophy, you can argue to the death about whether it damages you permanently but its the fact that your body will perform better, for longer, when it is properly fueled and hydrated.
    I do large amount of endurance training and races (up to 5 hours in a boat at once), and to not take on water would basically mean I would be under performing, and so not getting as much out of my training.
    I have in the past used the no-drinking philosophy at circuit training and it turned the session into a hard core survival test, when really I should of been concentrating on the job in hand. If you are training for a sport where drinking is not possible at all in a race, or in the army, then this philosophy is often followed for obvious reasons, the reasons are different, but probably to the detriment of the individuals.
  • Regarding cadence and climbing, GONZO said in his post on climbing

    "4) Shift into a gear which allows a cadence about 5-10 rpm lower than usual."

    I was under impression that a higher cadence on the flat is better because its more energy efficient, I would of thought the principle would be the same on a hill.
    If you lower your cadence, are you not going to use more energy whist applying more pressure on the pedals?

    Can someone clarify this.
  • nmcgannnmcgann Posts: 1,780
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jonathan r</i>

    Regarding cadence and climbing, GONZO said in his post on climbing

    "4) Shift into a gear which allows a cadence about 5-10 rpm lower than usual."

    I was under impression that a higher cadence on the flat is better because its more energy efficient, I would of thought the principle would be the same on a hill.
    If you lower your cadence, are you not going to use more energy whist applying more pressure on the pedals?

    Can someone clarify this.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    A higher cadence actually uses more energy from the CV system at the cost of reducing muscle force required - i.e. it is less energy efficient, but causes less fatigue. Dropping the cadence a touch on hills is a bit more energy-efficient if you are getting near to your limits.

    There is also the question of being able to spin the gear at the higher cadence while staying within your power limits - on steep hills you need a very low gear to keep it turning at 90+ rpm without going at the sort of speed that needs lots of power. Look here: http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm to play with power/speed/gradient calculations and then use the sheldon brown gear calculator to see what gearing you need at particular cadences to do that speed. It's pretty revealing.

    Neil
    --
    "Because the cycling is pain. The cycling is soul crushing pain."
  • thats good advice, as a beginner I need stuff like this. Being heavier than I should be and unfit means I am seriously struggling on hills. However the hills I died on 2 weeks ago I am now cruising (ish lol!) I still find when I get to the top I sometimes need a short stop to re gain my breath, especially on the convex hills that get steeper as I go along. Standing is something I'm trying to avoid, mainly because it sends my centre of gravity up even higher and I feel unstable.

    ...something that helps me ...my wife is a runner and she told me about exhaling in 4 short bursts rather than one big one...I tried it and it does help...dunno why though.
    Gravity sucks
  • vernonlevyvernonlevy Posts: 969
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bigtallfatbloke</i>

    thats good advice, as a beginner I need stuff like this. Being heavier than I should be and unfit means I am seriously struggling on hills. However the hills I died on 2 weeks ago I am now cruising (ish lol!) I still find when I get to the top I sometimes need a short stop to re gain my breath, especially on the convex hills that get steeper as I go along. Standing is something I'm trying to avoid, mainly because it sends my centre of gravity up even higher and I feel unstable.

    ...something that helps me ...my wife is a runner and she told me about exhaling in 4 short bursts rather than one big one...I tried it and it does help...dunno why though.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I'd not worry too much about the stops for breathers. They become few and far bewteen as you get fitter. I never used to be able to walk the 500 yds from my house to the post office and back without having three or four breathers at my 'peak unfitness'.

    A hill climbing technique for me that seemd to work during the internediate phase between stopping for breathers and doing hills in one was to drop the cadence and the gearing so that my heart rate didn't exceed 130 bpm i.e. I could maintain a conversation as I was climbing. Around 150 bpm I'd suffer from the contention between breathing and the ability to speak [:p]
  • jonathan r wrote:
    Regarding cadence and climbing, GONZO said in his post on climbing

    "4) Shift into a gear which allows a cadence about 5-10 rpm lower than usual."

    I was under impression that a higher cadence on the flat is better because its more energy efficient, I would of thought the principle would be the same on a hill.
    If you lower your cadence, are you not going to use more energy whist applying more pressure on the pedals?

    Can someone clarify this.

    Yes, climbing at high cadence is a "good thing". Only thing is, once you stand you can't maintain the same cadence as you can seated. My spin while seated is several rpm faster than my standing cadence.
    Gonzo's point is that as you stand, you should change up at least one gear depending on what cassette you use. This means a lower cadence for the same speed while standing up. Try it - if you stand in the same gear at the same effort you will slow down, almost certainly.

    Steve
    The dog did nothing in the night-time; that was the curious incident...
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