Ineos Grenadiers
Comments
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Try 85-90% of FTP for 5hrs, and that is a consistent effort not straying outside of those boundaries. I suspect this is what Pogacar is doing and it is a totally different type of effort to several hours at 70% ish of FTP.
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They should have thought about that in the recent Tour of Spain
BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
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Zone 2 would be sub LT1 rides. IE the stuff you can do for four or five hours and then do some training the next day.
BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
Are modern bikes actually quicker?
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That is my point, I don't think what Pogacar is referring to as Zone 2 is actually what we would know as Zone 2 as per Coggan i.e. 56-75% of FTP. I think he is actually riding tempo, my guess would be around 80% of FTP or just over.
I think he is also riding that at a very consistent power so a true tempo effort, not 340 watts (his suggested 'Zone 2' power) made up of different % at different zones which ends up with an aggregate power in 'Zone 2'.
If I went and rode 5hrs at 80% of FTP (let's assume that works out at 200 watts) where for arguments sake 20% was recovery, 30% endurance, 30% tempo and 20% at zones 4-6 that is manageable. If I tried to go and ride 200 watts for 5hrs and keep within 190-210 watts for 95% of the ride that is a very different effort and one I suspect an amateur could not get close to sustaining.
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Cancellara, Boonen, Sagan, Gilbert et al weren't exactly shabby. I suppose that's what I struggle with, as we had a period in the Sky era where things got slower, which was supposed to be representative of cleaner cycling. Now not only are we faster than that era, but we're also significantly faster than the EPO era.
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My 2023 Aeroad is definitely quicker than my 2014 Aeroad. It is also quicker than my 2017 Ultimate. I have the Veloviewer data that proves that over thousands of kilometres of riding.
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My specialissima is a lot slower than it was in 2017.
"Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0 -
Yeahbut that's not what you originally posted. That the best cyclist in the world can maintain a higher output than an overweight old bloke is hardly earth shattering news. And by admission nothing more than a suspicion.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Isn't his new coach doing more high intensity - the loads of Z2 stuff was an Inigo San Milan thing wasn't it?
On what basis is the argument his z2 is 80% of his ftp being made - is it that he's actually doing low end z3 rides or blood testing suggests his Z2 is actually 80% ftp?
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Sorry if that wasn't clear, I said he literally does 4-5 hrs at Tempo (i.e. zone 3) and made reference to the fact I believed this was actually Zone 3 and not Zone 2 as Pogacar refers to it.
I wasn't saying anything about this was suspicious, I was actually saying I think this is more of a basis for supreme levels of fitness than actual zone 2 i.e. 55-70% of FTP, which I suspect is what most pro's actually do. My point was riding for 5hrs consistently at a true tempo power output is an incredibly hard intensity and Pogacar's ability to tolerate this is perhaps a large part of what sets him apart from other top riders.
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Yes, but it would still have formed the basis of his aerobic capacity over the last few years which I am sure played a big part leading into the new season.
To be fair it is speculation to a degree. He said in a recent interview that his Zone 2 is 320-340 watts. I have read some well educated guesswork that puts his FTP around 415. If this is true that puts the Zone 2 as Pogacar refers to it at 77-80% of FTP. Therefore it would be that he is actually doing low end zone 3 as most of us would recognise it. Like I said, it is speculation on my part though, but I can see the principle of high intensity at high volume resulting in very high performance levels.
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z2 for me is a recovery ride which I can do all day long. z3 will be a training ride usually with some higher tempo and recovery within that. An athlete training at that level doesn't surprise me, the numbers are higher but still...
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Quite mad how during Sky's dominant period certain people couldn't stop banging on about doping.
Now they're going through a dry spell and still the thread explodes with chat about... *checks, DOPING. Some things never change.
Almost like it's the off-season or something.
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So (question not a statement) him/his former coach was defining z2 using physiological parameters around lactate/energy substrate rather than Coggan's %FTP and because Pogacar is exceptional for him the two don't marry up ?
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I think Pogacar's FTP is 431W or slightly above (based on some internet research & rumors).
PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
Couple of points:
1: Yes, bikes are faster now. Didn't watch the whole of that bike testing thing, but just to note, it's a '23 BMC. AG2R were on BMC last year. They're on Van Ryssel this season and doing a lot better. Tudor are the only team still riding BMC at WT/Pro level.
2: Jesus, off-season arrives earlier every year.... we haven't even done Giro del Walls Viennetta yet (it's tomorrow)
3: I'm not usually a stickler for staying on-topic on a thread, but this was an Ineos thread and "Pog - did he/didn't he?" is both well off topic and a bloody boring/annoying/stupid discussion
Warning No formatter is installed for the format5 -
On point 3, remember the days when it was Sky / Ineos who were winning and therefore doping? Now they’re not winning much so presumably just decided one day to give up this highly successful doping programme that no-one else knew about whereas now UAE have found a doping programme no-one else knows about (VLAB may also know about it but it seems to cause side effects that make their riders crash). It’s weird that the team with the best riders also have the successful doping programme of the day.
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Officially their worst season since they formed
1 GC win
14 overall wins
0 bunch sprint wins
2025 will only have 6 British riders (if TP leaves), lowest number since forming
Stated aim is winning the TDF, 6 years since last victory
Pretty dismal reading
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I'd go so far as to predict their demise by end of season 2026.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
Setting aside what happens to the 6 riders contracted for the '27 season, what's the terms of their 'demise'.
If someone comes through and buys the license, assets, and honours the contracts, is that demise?
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Cake is just weakness entering the body0 -
I mean Ineos no more. Whether that is folding or selling out.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
Re how long can a high % of FTP be maintained, my best ever cycling effort was the Uber Pretzel on Zwift a couple of years ago. I don't know why the Sporting Gods decided to bless me with superpowers for that day, but they did (*) and I averaged 248w for the outing based off FTP of 290w, so I averaged 86% of FTP for 4.5 hours.
I wasn't even particularly cooked after that either. The last 5k were hard, but after a scheduled rest day, I was back into my normal schedule.
Pog is 3 decades younger than me, give or take, so multi-hour outings at 90% of FTP should be perfectly possible for him. (And other top guys.)
But observations such as "So and so can do this that and the other in training so their race performances must be legit" omit the step where you have to consider how the training performances are achieved and so don't tell us anything about doping.
(*) Would have preferred such powers in the Marmotte 3 months later, but you get what you're given!
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That's not true. The only thing he said is, that his Shimano power meter isn't the most accurate (known problem) and he basically verifies the training zones through his heart rate.
PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
Maybe they should be looking at the 21 year old Brit Josh Charlton, who just broke Ganna's 4km pursuit world record.
"Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago3 -
World record only lasted until the next round. Maybe Ineos should sign Jonathan Milan.
"Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago3 -
He is Ganna's mate right, that was pretty much why they re-signed Viviani.
Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
Scott CR1 SL 12
Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
Scott Foil 180 -
He rides for St Piran currently, maybe Ineos will want him to accompany other young accomplished TTers called Josh.
Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
Scott CR1 SL 12
Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
Scott Foil 180 -
He's probably just happy not to be riding a hooky frame
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