Olympics 2024
Comments
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Have to admit it's an utterly ridiculous sport. Always has been. It would be like inventing a running event where the competitors are not allowed to move their arms. I'd much rather see a hopping race, or a three-legged race... both are less contrived.
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Many sports governing bodies are stumbling over how to address what science is revealing about gender and athletics performance. It is far from straightforward now they know that there are such variations in hormone levels, intergender conditions as so on, (all of which are perfectly natural) and the body of evidence showing how this correlates to athletic performance.
Transgender athletes are a completely separate issue, arguably a more straightforward issue, and importantly nothing whatsoever to do with this boxing row at the Olympics. The women involved are and always have been women, but are women with - the authorities argue - a natural physiological advantage.
Not an issue with men's sport, where natural physiological advantages are celebrated, but it is a problem with women's competition because, it appears, a line must be drawn for fairness to all.
Or not, depending on your view point.
It is important that this issue is not treated as a dog whistle for the identity warriors, however, on both sides.
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Noting your greater expertise in swimming, but I think I read that the mixed medley was quicker MMFF as well due to the difference in speeds of the strokes.
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It's no more stupid inherently than breaststroke swimming. It's just that every participant broke the rules so much that they changed the rules to "as long as it vaguely looks to the naked eye like there might be one foot in contact, let's say it's fine". So now they aren't breaking the rules. Kind of.
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I'm not supporting the IOC's position (and don't know enoughabout it) but in the case of these two boxers even the IBA's own attempts to 'clear up' their position have made no sense as they stated the two in question provided inconclusive blood tests ahead of both 2022 and 2023 Worlds and yet they only banned them in 2023. Listening to those who know more about the history than me there appears to have been nothing that actually proves they are not biologically female, the decision seems to have been made based purely on how they look and them then not being able to conclusively prove they are female which seems backwards.
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Great final 100m for Pattison in the 800m, went from a distant 4th to a comfortable win. If the he can make the final and it is tactical he could be a danger.
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Burgin gets forced to the same situation but with less success (still qualifies though).
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Can I suggest you lookup Emma Hilton (@FondOfBeetles) on Twitter? Read her stuff and she will put you right.
But to the general point of how does anyone know that the two boxers in question aren't female, we do have this:
- They both failed "gender eligibility tests" conducted at accredited labs.
- They both chose to not appeal to CAS against being banned from the World Champs
- The IOC allows self-ID of sex into boxing at the OGs
- The IOC has issued strict guidelines to accredited journalists as to what can / can't (mainly "can't") be said about eligibility based on gender
- The two boxers concerned have declined to take the old "sex test" (chromosome test, based on swab taken from inside the mouth) to confirm they are female
- Per my comment above, the IOC for years described Caster Semenya as female with abnormally high testosterone levels, knowing full well she was male, having undergone male puberty
So it's not really that hard to join the dots and conclude that on the balance of probabilities, the two boxers are male, with a DSD. Think of Lance Armstrong and doping. There were lots of dots and folk chose to join them or ignore them according to their personal preferences.
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I am in favour of introducing minimum times for qualification in track events and in particular the longer events.
So 8 qualify from a heat, providing the race is won in under a specified time.
That first 5000m heat was run as a complete joke and ended as a complete farce.
Too slow and too many athletes.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Too many athletes, yes.
Pace of the race is irrelevant. You go at the slowest pace you can manage in order to maximise your chance of crossing the line as a qualifier from your heat.
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The first point seems to be the one in doubt though, the IBA themselves have said the results were 'inconclusive'. If it is as clear cut as you are saying then they need to sack all their Board and get someone in place capable of communicating in am understandable way.
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Bigger kids on skateboards today. GB's old man is pleasing the crowds, but not the judges.
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Per my previous post, read Emma Hilton. She has covered this issue in considerable depth, and has the advantage of being a professional biologist.
But if the tests weren't valid (note my point about them being undertaken at WADA-accredited labs; they weren't undertaken by the IBA) why didn't the athletes appeal against being banned from the World Champs based on the results? Or why not take a test now to kill off rumours? It's the easiest thing in the world to prove you're female via a chromosome test, so long as you are female. It only gets a bit challenging in one fairly obvious scenario.
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This issue really drives people insane.
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True. If you're committed to allowing males to punch females in the head repeatedly and reward them for so doing then it would likely send you insane if people questioned your view. Likewise, if you don't think males should be encouraged to punch females in the head (or anywhere else for that matter) then the IOC's promotion thereof in the Olympic boxing would likely send you insane.
Metaphorically, obviously. I don't think the issue actually sends anyone insane in medical terms.
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Which of the various definitions of sex are you/we using here? Registered sex at birth? Chromosomes? Hormone levels? For anyone other than the absolute top tier, nobody is going to even question the registered sex at birth (bar chance discovery) and by definition that topmost tier are at the extremes of natural variation anyway. The whole thing seems to be built on sand.
The system I think you describe (chromosomes are definitive) effectively means a small number (but probably a higher proportion than the general population) of athletes being told they have been competing in the 'wrong' sex just as they finally start to see some success.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The IBA is run by the people kicked out of the Olympics for cheating on an industrial scale. The whole thing seems to be more to do with politics, and rivalry over which organisation gets to call the shots, than the 'fairness' of athletic competition.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Full marks for emotive wording 🙂
Maybe it's the repeatedly punching each other in the head that is the problem rather than anything else.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Are the BBC skateboard commentators just a parody act? Middle aged guys dressed like teenagers and saying 'stoked' every few words. I'm surprised they haven't gone the whole hog and taken to earing their caps backwards too.
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This is what concerns me in this situation. It’s having someone who is potentially much physically stronger punching another in the head.
This seems to be the case with the Algerian boxer, who broke her Italian opponents nose, with almost the first punch of the bout.
I just hope that the IOC’s progressive decision doesn’t end in a tragedy.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Ed Leigh is the same guy who does Ski Sunday, the Snowboard side of it. I personally like their commentary, it's great, funny and enthusiastic. What do you want people in suits who haven't a clue about it?
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I don't think boxing is the sport for you if you are going to complain when someone punches you in the face.
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I don’t fancy getting get punched in the face by anyone
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You might guess that I'm Twitter-surfing before supper. But this is quite impressive.
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That doesn't appear to have been an issue in the subsequent bouts. I think trying to base the entire argument on one fight is bound to lead to flawed conclusions.
I don't think anyone's suggesting female skulls are more fragile, so if the punch is strong enough to seriously injure or kill it doesn't make much difference what sex the owner of the skull is. Or are we saving it's fine for men to cause brain damage, but not women? (I'm sure you're not).
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It is wicked sweet awesome.
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I'm stoked you agree dude.
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The opposite of the rain map
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