Olympics 2024
Comments
-
They’ll probably introduce a mixed boxing tag team relay in a few years for gender equality anyway
0 -
Glad to see W&G is still on their favourite soap box
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
I think a sport where the object is to punch each other repeatedly in the head is madness. Quibbling over whether the brain damage is slightly more acceptable if it's caused by someone with the same chromosomes seems to miss the point. Implying some false equivalence with general violence against women is I think verging on bad faith (hence the slightly snarky comment). Of course in general men have physical advantages over women, but we're not talking about in general. We're talking about an incredibly small category of professional athletes who are further categorised into weight bands as a proxy for strength, and in this case, less than half a dozen individual athletes. At that point, population level patterns are pretty meaningless.
By the way, it was a genuine question as to which definition of sex you were using. I assume you hold that chromosomes are definitive. In which case at what age do you think we should screen for this given that many sporting careers start with an interest at junior school?
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Happy to bring some small level of happiness to your life!
Whilst you're here, are you OK will males competing against females in women's sports events?
1 -
As I commented in my earlier contribution to this debate, boxing is a strange (*) hill on which the IOC have chosen to die / not die re males in women's sport. It's not a boxing issue per se; the contact element of boxing just makes the issues more obvious. It's a males in women's sport issue.
As as I also commented earlier, the underlying problem is actually governing bodies - in this case the IOC - actively wanting males to compete in women's sport. Hence the removal of chromosome-based sex testing in the late 1990s, without any consultation of female sportspeople and against the preferences of circa 80% of female sportspeople per numerous subsequent survey. And hence the repeated messaging that Caster Semenya (and the other Rio 800m medallists) was a female with abnormally high testosterone levels when they knew she (no need to misgender Caster) was a DSD male with normal male testosterone levels due to having internal but fully functional testicles.
If the governing bodies commit to protecting female sports then the issues really go away. At grass roots level, peer pressure keeps males in the men's categories. And at elite level, chromosome testing does the job.
The Lia Thomas saga in the US is a good example. Everyone knew Lia was a fully intact male, but for whatever reason, the Powers That Be wanted Lia to be able to access the female changing rooms and beat as many females as possible in the women's categories. Anyone who attempted to speak out was threatened with loss of job or loss of scholarship.
Similarly, the USA Cycling rules re eligibility, which allow self-ID of gender up to Cat 2, actively promote males competing in the women's category. This Twitter account is worth a follow in this respect: 🚲 (@i_heart__bikes) / X
Conversely, in the UK, the Powers That Be in swimming don't want males in women's categories and have introduced female and open categories (ID as female taken on trust, subject to investigation by the the relevant national governing body if considered necessary) other than for entry-level galas where organisers can offer genuine "self ID" categories.
The governing bodies for the other main Olympic sports in the UK have taken a similar approach, at least at elite level.
(*) Whilst at any given point on the ability distribution, males are circa 10% faster than females, when adjusting for weight, males apparently punch with circa 2.5x the force of females.
0 -
What if XY or XX chromosomes was not completely determinative of gender?
0 -
Without getting into the specific case at this Olympics which is not related to any of the trans panic/nonsense (choose your team) in any way, I'm calling bullshit on the "males punch 2.5x the force of females" when applied to top level boxers at a given weight. Maybe it's true on average across populations and then used out of context.
0 -
I miss the days of drug busts in sport. This culture/gender wars stuff is tiresome.
1 -
-
I am guessing it must be a cultural thing? India as a nation never seems to have placed any great value on the Olympic games so I am guessing there is little to no grassroots funding or participation in many Olympic sports. I think it is a single sport country by and large, where cricket holds a monopoly over everything else. Whereas if you look at other countries with huge populations such as China, they place huge emphasis on the soft power of major international sporting success.
0 -
According to Hollywood, it’s actually females punching 2.5 times harder than males.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
I thought this was a pretty good summary of why Khelif should not be boxing as a woman - if the medical details are as assumed.
The specifics of how hard an individual punches or whether she's been beaten before are of course irrelevant.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I think that's quite a big "if", but this is the key thing from that article that seems to get forgotten by governing bodies too often : "the female category in elite sport has no raison d’être apart from the biological sex differences that lead to sex differences in performance and the gap between the top male and female athletes."
0 -
So if I've understood your position correctly: children of both sexes engage in sports from junior school age. Those with aptitude and enthusiasm get progressively more involved - after school clubs and local amateur teams, in effect filtering for the future elite level athletes. Normally by the end of junior school sports are segregated by sex.
One estimate for the prevalence of the various forms of DSD I have seen is 1 in 15,000 males are born and raised as a girl so around 22 born a year in the UK if my maths is right As a consequence of the advantages of male chromosomes those children who are registered female at birth but have male chromosomes will be over-represented in that cohort relative to the wider population. They will have no idea that they have male chromosomes until they hit puberty or later. The average age for diagnosis of what was previously known as Swyer syndrome is 17. If someone is going to compete at elite level, they will likely be well on their way by the age of 17.
So the consequence of strict enforcement of chromosomal qualification for elite level athletes is that a small but non- trivial number are told that they effectively cannot compete. I think we can discount the idea that people who are legally women are going to compete in male events. I am unconvinced that this makes sport fairer - rather it just makes it unfair in a different way.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Just reading back on this. You say she has 'fathered two children'. I was intrigued so looked it up. She is in a same sex relationship and her partner has undergone artificial insemination.
Or is there another story?
2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0 -
It's not a cultural thing, it is money.
People who are full time athletes are better and their sport. Doesn't hurt to have access to fancy equipment, doctors, coaches and either.
Why do you think the UK went from the odd medal and some bumbling amateurs to consistently top 5 in the medal table?
0 -
It's a rumour because a donor is never discussed. Although I'm not sure Tom Daley discusses it much either.
1 -
Caster has, I believe, a DSD (Difference in Sex Development) called 5-ARD. People with this particular variation can have internal testes and therefore father children via artificial insemination. As far as I am aware she has never actually admitted that the artificial insemination was from her, although I believe it has been confirmed that she does have internal testes and I believe it is a matter of record that she does have XY chromosomes.
1 -
I did wonder if that was the assumption. Slender chance I'd have thought, but a possibility.
2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0 -
Fair point, but I would argue that in order to invest the money there has to be some level of collective will to actually become better at Olympic sports, i.e. the cultural part, which India does not appear to have. The reason cricket has the money and India are hugely successful, is the cultural value of the sport to virtually the entire population.
The UK has always had a sporting public that wanted sporting success, we were just crap at it until we put shit loads of cash into it, as you say.
0 -
Not to mention the idea that the same punch is dangerous when connecting with the female skull but not the male skull. 🤪
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Bit weird from WADA to include this: "It is ironic and hypocritical that USADA cries foul when it suspects other Anti-Doping Organizations are not following the rules to the letter while it did not announce doping cases for years and allowed cheats to carry on competing, on the off chance they might help them catch other possible violators."
0 -
You think they should pull their punches and be more neutral in their tone?
0 -
Think this is one reason they are keen to get cricket into the olympics, as it would engage India with the olympics a bit more.
1 -
I think they shouldn't imply that their problem with USADA is anything other than what they have done in this scandal.
0 -
Even if they have other problems with USADA? I think yours is the correct professional approach, but I also think a double rebuke is fine too.
0 -
Not really arguing or wanting to get involved in the "debate" as such but I thought there were maybe a couple of other circumstances where an XY person could present as a woman beyond 5-ARD? Although of course 5-ARD has more sporting relevance due to the testosterone.
Plus other disorders where XX women have abnormally high testosterone, but then it's just a genetic advantage like any other I guess - except in some cases where governing bodies have tried to use testosterone as the determining factor.
0 -
I don't think "shut up causing problems with China" is appropriate in this communication.
0 -
That's a valid argument, and it would likely curry a fair amount of sympathy if that's the argument that the IOC was making to justify DSD males in their female categories. But it's not an argument they have ever used.
But ultimately, I think one has to take the route that is fairest to the 50% (the female population) rather than the 1/15000 where there are mutually exclusive "rights". (Not that sport, or even fair sport is a right, as understood by human rights legislation.)
0 -
There are some circumstances where those with XX chromosomes have abnormally high Testosterone level when compared to the typical female range, but such levels are still well below the low end of the typical male range. Those with XY chromosomes and 5-ARD have normal Testosterone levels when compared to males (due to being male, however they were identified / assign at birth).
The link I gave above to Emma Hilton on Twitter is well worth a read for those interested. She's a real expert in her field (as opposed to a Cakestop "expert", which I readily admit I try to pass myself off as in many situations) and has a knack for understandable explanations of complex matters.
0
