LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,548
    It's also well documented that Elgin's actions were pretty controversial at the time, and that Greece started requesting their return shortly after it gained independence from the Ottoman Empire.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,914
    rjsterry said:

    It's also well documented that Elgin's actions were pretty controversial at the time, and that Greece started requesting their return shortly after it gained independence from the Ottoman Empire.

    That's a far better argument in my opinion.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,548
    As I said, the plan that various people have been working on is a long term loan. This renders questions of ownership irrelevant.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,813
    MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

    It is a complex mix (I worked for a few years with a research centre that led the largest migration research project in Europe during the 2010's). It is not really like sex trafficking or modern slavery whereby people are essentially kidnapped (at worst), or forcibly coerced into leaving their home and are then trafficked abroad without consent.

    Interesting, thanks MG. I'd not really thought about the mechanics of it, but that all makes sense and you can see how people end up in these situations.
    Kinesis Pro6
    Marin Nail Trail
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  • MidlandsGrimpeur2
    MidlandsGrimpeur2 Posts: 2,115
    Cheers Veronese. Yes, I think media representations are too keen on labelling things and the terminology often gets mixed up or fails to convey the actual reality of migration and the mechanisms at play, as you say. I wish they would take more care in explaining the realities of migration, but I guess that doesn't get enough clicks or views.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,616
    MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

    Some of them [small boat arrivals] will engage a trafficker in their own country and pay them to get them to a destination. However, most will not realise this person is a trafficker, they believe they are literally paying for safe passage to another country.

    Thanks for the background info. I'm no expert in this field but the quote above is quite hard to swallow. It takes a fair deal of savvy to get into the position whereby one can avail oneself of the services of such middle men, and yet the folk concerned are supposedly unaware that the person they engage is unlikely to have their interests at heart or that the risk of exploitation is high.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,548
    wallace_and_gromit said:

    MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

    Some of them [small boat arrivals] will engage a trafficker in their own country and pay them to get them to a destination. However, most will not realise this person is a trafficker, they believe they are literally paying for safe passage to another country.

    Thanks for the background info. I'm no expert in this field but the quote above is quite hard to swallow. It takes a fair deal of savvy to get into the position whereby one can avail oneself of the services of such middle men, and yet the folk concerned are supposedly unaware that the person they engage is unlikely to have their interests at heart or that the risk of exploitation is high.

    Are you speaking from experience?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,616
    edited November 2023
    rjsterry said:

    wallace_and_gromit said:

    MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

    Some of them [small boat arrivals] will engage a trafficker in their own country and pay them to get them to a destination. However, most will not realise this person is a trafficker, they believe they are literally paying for safe passage to another country.

    Thanks for the background info. I'm no expert in this field but the quote above is quite hard to swallow. It takes a fair deal of savvy to get into the position whereby one can avail oneself of the services of such middle men, and yet the folk concerned are supposedly unaware that the person they engage is unlikely to have their interests at heart or that the risk of exploitation is high.

    Are you speaking from experience?
    Thankfully not. But equally, if you are doubting my observation, are you doing so based on personal experience?
  • MidlandsGrimpeur2
    MidlandsGrimpeur2 Posts: 2,115
    @wallace_and_gromit

    It's a fair point and an assumption I would guess many people would make.

    You have to factor in that very desperate people are vulnerable and their mindset is very different to ours.

    When I say they will engage a trafficker/smuggler and not know, in many instances it will be someone masquerading as a 'fixer' or recruiter of some kind. They will promise you a job, do everything they can to gain your trust and then exploit you. It is easy for us as an outsider to say that is still naive, but imagine you are an 18 year old Syrian kid, absolutely desperate to get out. Someone comes along and promises you a job and a better life, there is a strong chance you will believe them, or are so desparate to believe them you go along with it.

    Yes, there are also people who will knowingly engage a smuggler but many will believe they will get what they are paying for. They will be told they are going on a boat or a plane, they have paid a lot of money so it will all sound plausible. Then they get to a port and are shoved into a shipping container or put in a dinghy with 40 other people and no life vests. Again, it is easy to apply our experience to the situation and say they should have realised, but many don't. As I say, when you are vulnerable you are much more open to manipulation and exploitation, rational thinking goes out of the window and people believe what they are promised.

    It is not really about savvy, it is about vulnerability. Criminals know where to find vulnerable people and they know how to say and do the right things to exploit them.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,548
    wallace_and_gromit said:

    rjsterry said:

    wallace_and_gromit said:

    MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

    Some of them [small boat arrivals] will engage a trafficker in their own country and pay them to get them to a destination. However, most will not realise this person is a trafficker, they believe they are literally paying for safe passage to another country.

    Thanks for the background info. I'm no expert in this field but the quote above is quite hard to swallow. It takes a fair deal of savvy to get into the position whereby one can avail oneself of the services of such middle men, and yet the folk concerned are supposedly unaware that the person they engage is unlikely to have their interests at heart or that the risk of exploitation is high.

    Are you speaking from experience?
    Thankfully not. But equally, if you are doubting my observation, are you doing so based on personal experience?
    No. But even very comfortably off people in stable supportive environments get tricked into scams and exploited.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,697
    MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

    @wallace_and_gromit
    Informed Words.

    Sadly, if there's anyone who knows how to manipulate desperate people it's criminal gangs...

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,616
    @MidlandsGrimpeur2 @rjsterry @ddraver

    Very informative points. Thanks. I guess that in reality the distinction between being trafficked overtly up front and misled / exploited by someone posing as a helpful agent is more sliding scale than binary.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,325
    Just got a flyer through the door from our local tory MP giving her annual report.
    Absolutely no mention of which party she represents. Quite telling imo.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,345
    pblakeney said:

    Just got a flyer through the door from our local tory MP giving her annual report.
    Absolutely no mention of which party she represents. Quite telling imo.


    I bet the dominant colour wasn't blue either. Green maybe?
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,396
    I'm guessing the Tories candidates/canvassers will do that in quite a few dodgy areas.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,325
    briantrumpet said:

    pblakeney said:

    Just got a flyer through the door from our local tory MP giving her annual report.
    Absolutely no mention of which party she represents. Quite telling imo.


    I bet the dominant colour wasn't blue either. Green maybe?
    Can't recall and it's in the bin now.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    _
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,325
    Not too surprised at Phil the Greek wearing a Greek tie tbh.
    Will be two fingers at some though.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,150
    That's not good - unless he cleared it with the wee man first.

  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,605
    pblakeney said:

    Not too surprised at Phil the Greek wearing a Greek tie tbh.
    Will be two fingers at some though.

    Has he come back from the dead?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,325
    edited December 2023
    Jezyboy said:

    pblakeney said:

    Not too surprised at Phil the Greek wearing a Greek tie tbh.
    Will be two fingers at some though.

    Has he come back from the dead?
    My mistake. Blame an addled old brain.
    In memory of his Dad?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    pblakeney said:

    Jezyboy said:

    pblakeney said:

    Not too surprised at Phil the Greek wearing a Greek tie tbh.
    Will be two fingers at some though.

    Has he come back from the dead?
    My mistake. Blame an addled old brain.
    In memory of his Dad?
    Who was his dad? Seems to be cross generational. 😉
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,325
    edited December 2023
    orraloon said:

    pblakeney said:

    Jezyboy said:

    pblakeney said:

    Not too surprised at Phil the Greek wearing a Greek tie tbh.
    Will be two fingers at some though.

    Has he come back from the dead?
    My mistake. Blame an addled old brain.
    In memory of his Dad?
    Who was his dad? Seems to be cross generational. 😉
    Even I'm not daft enough not to know that King Charles' father was Phil the Greek, Duke of Edinburgh. Born in Greece to Greek royal family. Charles does look like his Dad now. 🤣
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    I really hope it was intentional.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,345
    webboo said:

    I really hope it was intentional.


    Plausible deniability.

    Meanwhile, other Greeks...

    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,648
    briantrumpet said:

    webboo said:

    I really hope it was intentional.


    Plausible deniability.

    Meanwhile, other Greeks...

    They've got some stones to print that! Wait, no...
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited December 2023
    I am fucking furious about this spouse income visa thing.

    If you are poor and fall in love with foreigners you’re f@cked basically.
    _
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,548
    They've been promising to reduce immigration since the FS was PM. What an earth makes you think they are serious this time?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    I thought it was a done deal?
    _
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,167
    They don't even seem to know if its combined income for spouses.

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