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Edward Colston/Trans rights/Stamp collecting

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  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,674
    Telling people who are in the minority, that you're not a racist country, but you're not taking down your big old slave trader statues until there's a majority for it and all the paperwork is in order isn't a good look.

    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,674
    edited June 2020
    Change comes slowly then all at once

    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • john80john80 Posts: 2,425
    This is a bit of a better setup than a group of disorganised protestors. The HSE will be chuffed.
  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,674
    edited June 2020
    Click through to the article for some top quality definitely not a racist content





    Believe that a farther shore
    Is reachable from here.
    Believe in miracles
    And cures and healing wells
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,061
    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    Why the leap from books to statues? They're quite different.

    I do really think going into bat for King Leopold II is not a good idea.

    Not batting for Leo or anyone else. Only quoted you because you mentioned *large* statues.

    I confess I have never seen the Colston statue, in fact I wouldn't have been able to pick him out of a lineup.
    You have always said that GB should face up to its past and here was a constant reminder that could have served to remind the folk of Brizzle on what their city's prosperity was based on. But the mob thought today seems to be to eradicate all trace, be it statues, names of buildings, streets etc.
    Can't see what changing a building from Colston to say Nelson Mandele House, à la OFAH, achieves in reminding future generations.


    Don't worry, Bally, there are still *lots* of streets and buildings named after Colston or otherwise related to the slave trade.
    I take it they are so named to honour him and as such they should be renamed then and he further airbrushed from the city's history?

    Many are so named because he paid for them. It's not just him: the Wills family were big on local philanthropy but less up front about where the wealth came from.
    Are you telling me that Wills Memorial Building has to go as well? Not happy with that. From an architect too.

    No obviously not. That's kind of my point.
    Yes I did get it I wasn't being entirely serious.

    I'm not keen on a mini cultural revolution Mao style.

    Liverpool hall of residence to be renamed as Gladstone is now a bad name.

    https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/university-rename-student-halls-named-18387566
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,361 Lives Here
    I see the bbc is tying itself up in knots to not call racists racists.
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,214

    I see the bbc is tying itself up in knots to not call racists racists.

    That's a first.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,361 Lives Here
    Let's just clear a few things up.

    People don't put up statues of bad people. Statues are always up there as a celebration.

    Ergo, statues of racists are essentially saying we are celebrating a racist.

    Nor is history written in statues, else we'd all have forgotten a whole bunch of nasty folk.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,061

    Let's just clear a few things up.

    People don't put up statues of bad people. Statues are always up there as a celebration.

    Ergo, statues of racists are essentially saying we are celebrating a racist.

    Nor is history written in statues, else we'd all have forgotten a whole bunch of nasty folk.

    Statues of racists were essentially saying they were celebrating a racist.
  • floreriderflorerider Posts: 1,112

    Telling people who are in the minority, that you're not a racist country, but you're not taking down your big old slave trader statues until there's a majority for it and all the paperwork is in order isn't a good look.

    No but that is what happens if democracy is stripped down to votes only.
  • Jeremy.89Jeremy.89 Posts: 457

    Click through to the article for some top quality definitely not a racist content





    I feel like they cut off his quotes, which must have started with, I'm not racist but...

  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 3,965
    Jeremy.89 said:

    Click through to the article for some top quality definitely not a racist content





    I feel like they cut off his quotes, which must have started with, I'm not racist but...

    These days people prefer "of course I believe racism exists, but..."
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,628
    Didn't realise that until 2015 some of my taxes were going to pay off the loan the British Govt took out from Rothchilds to free slaves across the empire. Cost £20m (40% of Treasury income) loan of £15m in 1835
    I wonder what the compound interest was on that loan over 180 years?

    Is that worth any virtue signalling points?

  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,361 Lives Here

    Didn't realise that until 2015 some of my taxes were going to pay off the loan the British Govt took out from Rothchilds to free slaves across the empire. Cost £20m (40% of Treasury income) loan of £15m in 1835
    I wonder what the compound interest was on that loan over 180 years?

    Is that worth any virtue signalling points?

    Sorry, what are you actually arguing here?
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,628

    Didn't realise that until 2015 some of my taxes were going to pay off the loan the British Govt took out from Rothchilds to free slaves across the empire. Cost £20m (40% of Treasury income) loan of £15m in 1835
    I wonder what the compound interest was on that loan over 180 years?

    Is that worth any virtue signalling points?

    Sorry, what are you actually arguing here?
    Not arguing. I said I didn't realise. First line of my post. I've highlighted it for you.


  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,361 Lives Here

    Didn't realise that until 2015 some of my taxes were going to pay off the loan the British Govt took out from Rothchilds to free slaves across the empire. Cost £20m (40% of Treasury income) loan of £15m in 1835
    I wonder what the compound interest was on that loan over 180 years?

    Is that worth any virtue signalling points?

    Sorry, what are you actually arguing here?
    Not arguing. I said I didn't realise. First line of my post. I've highlighted it for you.


    Why are you talking about virtue signalling points?

    What are you trying to say on this thread in general. Do you think the statue should have been taken down or not, and why?
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 7,617
    edited June 2020

    Click through to the article for some top quality definitely not a racist content






    Ah, that picture from 2001 is quite something...
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 14,598

    Didn't realise that until 2015 some of my taxes were going to pay off the loan the British Govt took out from Rothchilds to free slaves across the empire. Cost £20m (40% of Treasury income) loan of £15m in 1835
    I wonder what the compound interest was on that loan over 180 years?

    Is that worth any virtue signalling points?

    Negative points because your money went to compensate slave owners.
    Hang your head in shame for repeating some casual anti-semitism.

    You should go back to your chosen source of news and question what is the relevance of who leant the money.

    Before it all kicks off I am not accusing you of being anti-Semitic, I am suggesting that you are being insidiously influenced by one.
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,604
    edited June 2020

    Let's just clear a few things up.

    People don't put up statues of bad people. Statues are always up there as a celebration.

    Ergo, statues of racists are essentially saying we are celebrating a racist.

    Nor is history written in statues, else we'd all have forgotten a whole bunch of nasty folk.

    Did the concept of racism even exist when the statues were put up? Even in the 19th Century the British Empire were waging war on 'savages' in Africa so the statues were erected to celebrate the achievements of people who did things in accordance with the social norm of the times.

    That's not to say the statues shouldn't have been removed in the intervening hundred odd years when the social norm has changed but to say they were put up to celebrate racism isn't really true.

    It's about time all those statues of Roman emperors and generals were ripped down and their names deleted from buildings and streets worldwide as they were all slave owners.

    Judging the behaviours of the past by today's accepted behaviour is folly. Yes, remove the statues from public spaces or leave them be with educational information rather than glorifying words but ultimately the wealth of the nation has been mainly built on behaviour we would mainly criticise today.

    Even now, how many of the companies you count as Clients in the big city meet your high standards of ethics? If they do, were they completely innocent in the way they initially amassed their fortunes? Should we give back all the wealth we plundered from the natural resources of countries that remain impoverished to the current day?
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,628
    Virtue signalling points?
    Mob of people tear down statue of slave trader and feel good in themselves but make no material difference to the life of anyone.

    Do I think the statue should be taken down?
    If the people of Bristol want it removed, then yes. If not and it was to remain, explain the subject's role in the history of the city, warts and all. He was a slaver, the region's prosperity was built partially on that, so explain that. Removing his statue, renaming roads and buildings to airbrush his role is wrong. Make people aware of local history.
    You, yourself have argued that GB should face its less than glorious past so why argue now to cover it up?

    The other aspect is my discomfort in allowing mob rule to decide which statues are allowed and which should be torn down. Others may feel comfortable with this, as they may think that this example deserves to go. But what about the next? And the next?
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,604
    The other thing to consider is that whilst the slavery of the times of Colston was predominantly black people taken from Africa to the plantations of the Caribbean, Deep South and South America slavery both historically and today isn't necessarily about colour. It's about exploiting the weak and vulnerable. Today it seems to be mainly Eastern Europeans and Asians being tricked, back in the days of the Roman Empire it was people from all other their conquered Empire black or white. Arguably much of the workforce on which the industrial revolution was based were little more than the slaves of the company employing them and were native to the country.
  • briantrumpetbriantrumpet Posts: 7,617
    One only has to go back to what we laughed at on TV in the 1970s to see how attitudes to race, women and minorities have changed for the better. I was properly stunned to see a scene of physical sexual abuse against a female in M*A*S*H being played for laughs. I rather stopped me dead in my tracks, and I've not watched the rest of the DVD box set.
  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 3,965
    edited June 2020
    Pross said:

    The other thing to consider is that whilst the slavery of the times of Colston was predominantly black people taken from Africa to the plantations of the Caribbean, Deep South and South America slavery both historically and today isn't necessarily about colour. It's about exploiting the weak and vulnerable. Today it seems to be mainly Eastern Europeans and Asians being tricked, back in the days of the Roman Empire it was people from all other their conquered Empire black or white. Arguably much of the workforce on which the industrial revolution was based were little more than the slaves of the company employing them and were native to the country.

    I've considered it and you're talking rubbish
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 18,214
    edited June 2020
    Not that I ever watched it, but now "Little Britain" gets the Colston treatment.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52983319

    Which I guess must mean TCM, Sony Classics and Talking Pictures days are numbered too.

    After that, there surely must be a good few books that could be thrown on the bonfire, although didn't somebody already come up with that one?
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,361 Lives Here
    Pross said:

    The other thing to consider is that whilst the slavery of the times of Colston was predominantly black people taken from Africa to the plantations of the Caribbean, Deep South and South America slavery both historically and today isn't necessarily about colour. It's about exploiting the weak and vulnerable. Today it seems to be mainly Eastern Europeans and Asians being tricked, back in the days of the Roman Empire it was people from all other their conquered Empire black or white. Arguably much of the workforce on which the industrial revolution was based were little more than the slaves of the company employing them and were native to the country.

    Oh mate what is this?
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,663
    The balance about the legality of the mob actions is not a simple right or wrong equation. (Glad I didn’t use black or white).

    Many things only change through uprising or subversion of a norm or law.

    Suffragettes, Rosa Parks, mass trespass on Kinder etc.

    To simply say the law should never be broken in pursuit of a cause is naive.

    Whether a cause is just or not is an entirely different matter.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,361 Lives Here

    Virtue signalling points?
    Mob of people tear down statue of slave trader and feel good in themselves but make no material difference to the life of anyone.

    Do I think the statue should be taken down?
    If the people of Bristol want it removed, then yes. If not and it was to remain, explain the subject's role in the history of the city, warts and all. He was a slaver, the region's prosperity was built partially on that, so explain that. Removing his statue, renaming roads and buildings to airbrush his role is wrong. Make people aware of local history.
    You, yourself have argued that GB should face its less than glorious past so why argue now to cover it up?

    The other aspect is my discomfort in allowing mob rule to decide which statues are allowed and which should be torn down. Others may feel comfortable with this, as they may think that this example deserves to go. But what about the next? And the next?

    It’s not covering up the past, in the same way they took a statue of a nonce down to totally no drama whatsoever.

    Statues celebrate the subject.

    Why celebrate a slave trader?

    You gonna keep Hitler statues up for services to motorways?
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,628

    Didn't realise that until 2015 some of my taxes were going to pay off the loan the British Govt took out from Rothchilds to free slaves across the empire. Cost £20m (40% of Treasury income) loan of £15m in 1835
    I wonder what the compound interest was on that loan over 180 years?

    Is that worth any virtue signalling points?

    Negative points because your money went to compensate slave owners.
    Hang your head in shame for repeating some casual anti-semitism.

    You should go back to your chosen source of news and question what is the relevance of who leant the money.

    Before it all kicks off I am not accusing you of being anti-Semitic, I am suggesting that you are being insidiously influenced by one.
    Slavery Abolition Act 1833
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

    I wasn't concerned with the source of the money, that was just coincidental. Rothchilds were the preeminent bankers of the time. Don't make anything of my mentioning them.
    Yes, it was to compensate slave owners but my point was that I hadn't realised how much the country had borrowed and the timescale to pay it back.
  • pangolinpangolin Posts: 3,965
    Well this is going downhill fast.
    Genesis Croix de Fer
    Cube Attain
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,604
    pangolin said:

    I've considered it and you're talking rubbish

    Why? Hypothetically do you think if everything else in West Africa was the same at his time was equal but the population had been white that their fate would have been any different? Taking a human being of any race or colour and making them your possession against their will is abhorrent. I'm just querying whether it automatically makes you a racist as well as a horrible person.

    Do you accept that there is still slavery and that it doesn't reflect race and that not all slavery in history has involved white people enslaving black people?

    To be clear, celebrating someone publicly in this day and age for making a fortune using slave labour should have been deemed unacceptable by the Council well before 2020.
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