Are FS bike really needed for riding
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if its gonna be another HT vs FS thread, i'll put in my vote now, i prefer HT's, lighter, and teach you to be a better rider. also, i dont care what people ay, they are still aesome fun on even the rockiest DH'sI like bikes and stuff0
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zero303 wrote:If you take a crap line full of rocks and square edged hits, the full susser may make it feel less painful and severe BUT the momentum of the wheels still gets interrupted and ultimately the bike gets slowed just as much.
No chance, the center of your mass is your body and this will move in a smoother line on a full sus. This is why we use light wheels, they can move around all over not wasting much energy. This is also why you'd have to take all the impacts in your arms and legs on a hardtail, to allow the bulk of your mass to move in a straight line.
Over the right terrain a full sus will roll faster and lose less speed due to less unsprung mass.0 -
you could ask a similar question to all the commuters....is that pinarello supermodel racer with the zipp wheels really necessary for your commute....No....does it make you smile......Yes.
end of.Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.
H.G. Wells.0 -
Toasty wrote:This is also why you'd have to take all the impacts in your arms and legs on a hardtail, to allow the bulk of your mass to move in a straight line.
You should do this on a full suss as well.Toasty wrote:This is why we use light wheels
What's that got to do with anything, are light wheels exclusive to Full sussers or something?0 -
Are full sussers over-rated? Yep!
Are full sussers awesome? Yep!
Are hardtails awesome? Hell yeah!
Horses for courses but coming from a guy who only rides up to go back down again, my favourite bike is my 100mm travel hardtail for typical UK singletrack riding. I've got a 145mm travel full susser for the more extreme stuff like at trail centres and a 200mm dh rig full susser for the mental stuff.
But... hardtails are fantastic!0 -
zero303 wrote:Toasty wrote:This is also why you'd have to take all the impacts in your arms and legs on a hardtail, to allow the bulk of your mass to move in a straight line.
You should do this on a full suss as well.Toasty wrote:This is why we use light wheels
What's that got to do with anything, are light wheels exclusive to Full sussers or something?
I think you're missing the point here...
Over rough your mass will move in a smoother line on a full suspension bike, because of this you'll lose less speed and require less energy to maintain the same speed. Lighter wheels will make the speed loss even smaller, much as heavy wheels will slow down faster.0 -
But you may not be able to pedal as smoothly over rough terrain on some full sussers. If there is a high amount of anti squat, you will get pedals kicking back, interupting rhythm. If you overcome the kickback with brute force, you lessen the effect of ths suspension, stopping it moving and losing traction.
Many factors to consider.0 -
While that's true, I'm replying to:If you take a crap line full of rocks and square edged hits, the full susser may make it feel less painful and severe BUT the momentum of the wheels still gets interrupted and ultimately the bike gets slowed just as much.
:P
A full sus doesn't get slowed as much, it's a completely different kettle of fish.
On that note though, I've always found it easier pedaling over rough on full sus too if I'm sat spinning. For standing on the front end, aggressive mashing though I'd rather be on my Zaskar.0 -
I'm definitely with Toasty - full sussers shouldn't be slowed as much. If your full susser does, name and shame it so no one else here has to waste their money and upgrade to a hardtail!0
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It depends how you pedal and the terrain too - and your skill.
Some sussers exhibit different overall characteristics that some riders get on with, others don't.0 -
I didn't mean hardtails were bad by the way :P Racing around aggressively on the Zaskar stood right on the front end is amazing fun! I'm sure it'll be way faster than my Meta when my muscles balance out a bit, I'm a bit too focused on sitting and spinning still after a winter of exercise biking :?
I do also think I'd go even faster on a similar weight full sus, carbon epic or something. You'd get the best of both worlds. I'm rapidly drifting off topic, for equal cost you'll always get better hardtails so the very top end is fairly irrelevant.0 -
supersonic wrote:It depends how you pedal and the terrain too - and your skill.
Some sussers exhibit different overall characteristics that some riders get on with, others don't.
Indeed, but how could any suspension system be worse then forcing your entire frame over the obstacle? Two people at the top of a rocky, bumpy hill. Both bikes built for the same purpose, neither pedalling, everything else the same, the same bumpy line picked, both stood over the bike and efficiently taking the bumps.
The full sus will hold it's speed better.
I'm not trying to dig a deeper hole here, just simplify it to get across what I'm talking about. :P0 -
its pretty obvious that a full sus bike is going to have greater traction than a ht, due the the fact that the rear wheel is able to follow the surface of the trail ect and in turn give more consistant grip.
its just down to what sort of riding you like i guess.
i have a lot of freinds who are all really into biking and most have changed from a ht to a fs and wont look back, the ones who have not changed to fs will do when money allows.0 -
hello again, just been on merlin and if you do get a full sus, this might be worth considering.
http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/custom-mo ... 55-uk.html
what do you reckon, mr wu?if it ain't rainin.....it ain't trainin
Stick your 'rules' up your a%se0 -
Toasty wrote:supersonic wrote:It depends how you pedal and the terrain too - and your skill.
Some sussers exhibit different overall characteristics that some riders get on with, others don't.
Indeed, but how could any suspension system be worse then forcing your entire frame over the obstacle? Two people at the top of a rocky, bumpy hill. Both bikes built for the same purpose, neither pedalling, everything else the same, the same bumpy line picked, both stood over the bike and efficiently taking the bumps.
The full sus will hold it's speed better.
I'm not trying to dig a deeper hole here, just simplify it to get across what I'm talking about. :P
Talking about two different scenarios, coasting, and pedalling. Even when coasting a skilled rider can unweight the wheel over some hits and even use ramps and slopes to maintain momentum. A full susser can absorb your effort. I say can as is a complex subject!
I look at it like this: on the smooth a HT will always have the advantage. On extreme terrain the FS (given the rider gets on with the design) will have many advantages for a variety of reasons. Inbetween it is blurred, and the line will be drawn differently dependin on factors already discussed.0 -
*sigh* Urgh, I'm arguing on the internet again...0
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Would you buy a car without suspension?
And how would it handle if you did, not very well.
Same principle as a bike or any other form of transport, suspension front and back will make a difference and make riding easier and faster in the right hands.
I have a hardtail and a full sus, and I can go further and faster of my full sus.0 -
This is a great Thread. I also went through the whole debate of whether I should or shouldn't get an FS bike.
I took the plunge, spent some serious money and to be honest I have no regrets at all.
2 weeks back I took my Kona HT out for a 20 mile ride as I hadn't had a good long ride on it for some time. I do log distance and time and I was on a trail I know well and have done many times.
To be honest I was slower on the HT which i found shocking as the fire breaks and ascents are much more suited to a hardtail. I came to the conclusion that I have adapted to an FS bike and no longer need a hardtail. On a contradictory note, I love my Kona and will never part with it... and have made a vow to get out on it more often
As for the HT in places like Cannop/Forest of Dean and Swinley, it gives me a lot more confidence to tackle some descents and trails where I feel a HT would probably hold me back0 -
Well recently was up north Wales with a few friends, and a mate bought his charge blender.. which he was awsomely quick on the downs LLangethla and back on our trails afan/Cwm so on.
But he swapped on to his Spec SX coil sprung sucker for the wall this weekend and i just couldn't see him for anything. But an important point to make was he loved both his bikes and has just as much fun on both, but in different ways so he swaps when the mood takes.
If he had to have one bike it would be his FS because you can ride it all and not feel like someone has tried implant there saddle in you. But a Hard tail definately has its place the air he got on it was lovely to see0 -
I have been I HT lover all my riding life (that's about 20 years) all my friends are on FS now, although they do still keep a HT and come out on them from time to time.
Anyway I took the plunge and brought a FS 2 weeks ago and have just spent my first week riding It (done about 100miles) and I am loving It.
I find I can go faster over the ruff stuff and don't notice any difference when climbing, I seem to be quicker on some of my local loops, some of my rides have a lot of stairs I really notice It here.
I will always have a hardtail and ride from time to time, I think I have been converted and that hurt to say It's not a ornament, so ride It0 -
focusexpert36 wrote:Would you buy a car without suspension?
And how would it handle if you did, not very well.
Same principle as a bike or any other form of transport, suspension front and back will make a difference and make riding easier and faster in the right hands.
I have a hardtail and a full sus, and I can go further and faster of my full sus.
The cars that handle best on race tracks are ones with minimal amounts of suspension though.
Also drivetrain coupling is totally different.0 -
supersonic wrote:focusexpert36 wrote:Would you buy a car without suspension?
And how would it handle if you did, not very well.
Same principle as a bike or any other form of transport, suspension front and back will make a difference and make riding easier and faster in the right hands.
I have a hardtail and a full sus, and I can go further and faster of my full sus.
The cars that handle best on race tracks are ones with minimal amounts of suspension though.
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Can't say the same for rally cars though
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also they ride on totally smooth roads, while off road the faster cars are rally cars with increased travel... and really rough stuff bowlers!!!! with huge travel muhaha0
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Which comes back to my original point... the terrain, the rider, the bike.0
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totally, on the welsh rocky trails my arse hurts to much on a hard tail.. if it was smooth fast flowy stuff i'd love a HT.. but most of what we have is fast rocks roots and so on.0
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Can I just say that ive ordered a Cannondale Prophet now!
Tried the Giants, didnt like any of them to be honest, so did a bit of searching and found a prophet. Still might get the crush as well :-)0 -
Going by my own experience I would say FS tends to be considerably quicker on the rough DH sections. It's certainly no easier because it takes as much skill to ride it on the edge. It's just a slightly different skill required.
To the OP you need to test ride a few but imo if you already have a decent HT then a FS might be the better way forward for you.0 -
For short fun blasts over pretty rocky terrain, I used to have a single pivot (high pivot) saracen. It was great, did the job I wanted it too, offered a nice dose of fun, damage limitation, and dare I say it, laziness.
For longer rides, nah. Too heavy, and the pedal kickback when in the granny gear pedalling up inclines with bowl compressions was bad. I don't like single pivot bikes for some riding. The zaskars blew it away, even over moderate terrain, and I have found the same for most SPs I have tried. I don't like the feel.
The old Idrive as good for medium sorta rides. Pedalled well, comfortable, but still heavier.0 -
I'm not sure I get this "laziness" thing though. I find the FS allows me to plough through much bigger things the HT wouldn't let me do and for me that is half the fun of them and just as hard.
As for SP, FSR.... well that will no doubt be another 5-6 page discussion in the not to distant future 0 -
I sorta just blat through some obstacles - which would be quicker and easier hopping over on a lightweight HT!0
