Fahgetaboutit lock

whitedragon101 · June 2007

I have just bought some new bike locks as I'm trying to lock my new bike up like Fort Knox as I have to leave it in a car park while at work. I Have bought:

A 150cm Fahgetaboutit chain & Disc Lock
A 100cm New York Chain & Ev Series 4 Disc Lock
A New York 300 U-lock

but I have just seen a rather worrying video here:
http://www.almax-security-chains.co.uk/index.asp?pg=19

...of a Fahgetaboutit Chain being cropped. This is confusing as it has passed sold secure gold and a whole boatload of other tests. My sneaky suspision is that they only crack them because they cheat, by always taking the disc lock off so they can have a go at the exposed link at the end, but its difficult to see. Have a look and let me know what you think.

Thanks

Unknown · June 2007

To be honest, a determined thief will break anything if he has the right tools. And thats a bloody big bolt cropper!

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Unknown · June 2007

Looking at the vids, it is hard to see what they are doing. Then they rave about Gold awarded stuff in the 'about' section.

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Unknown · June 2007

as i said else where. why spend that much money on locks to protect an expensive bike that someone might steal?

get a rat bike for less than the locks.

nick
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pmerryman · June 2007

Someone is going to look might suspicious carrying a set of bolt croppers like that.

If people want the bike that badly though, they will take it.

Cheers Paul
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Mad Splasherwmb · June 2007

It's a cynical thing to say, but buying a lock is not about physically preventing theives from stealing your bike, it's about making your bike a lot more hassle to steal than someone else's.

Also, who the fcuk has a set of croppers that size? You may as well pull up in a van with an oxy-gas set in the back.

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soulsaverwmb · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mad Splasher

I
Also, who the fcuk has a set of croppers that size? You may as well pull up in a van with an oxy-gas set in the back.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I do [:D]

I also have van with gas axe in the back [:D]

Don't panic, I don't drive around nicking bikes[:I]

I remember vaguely there was a site that had some vids of a guy using various means to nick a bike(his own) in the middle of a busy street to see peoples reaction.In one he had an angle grinder, in another some guy on a moped stopped and helped him but no one stopped him, very worrying [:0]

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Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by soulsaver

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mad Splasher

I
Also, who the fcuk has a set of croppers that size? You may as well pull up in a van with an oxy-gas set in the back.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I do [:D]

I also have van with gas axe in the back [:D]

Don't panic, I don't drive around nicking bikes[:I]

I remember vaguely there was a site that had some vids of a guy using various means to nick a bike(his own) in the middle of a busy street to see peoples reaction.In one he had an angle grinder, in another some guy on a moped stopped and helped him but no one stopped him, very worrying [:0]

<hr noshade size="1">My Giant Reign :Upcoming upgrades, money permitting: Pike forks(Aug 07). Push'ed Fox RP23shock((Aug/Sept 07) . Hope pro2 hubs(Front Aug 07/Rear ???).Oh and maybe some flying snake cables given that everyone keeps on about them. My Dream replacement

 My Marin Palisades Trail :Upcoming upgrades, money permitting: XT Crankset(Got it, just need to face BB beofre I can fit).Do away with R/R rear mech and change front and back mechs to 07 XTR(Xmas 07). Sram PC991 chain and PG990 Cassette(July 07). Hope mini brakes(Oct 07). SDG carbon I-Beam seat post and saddle.Carbon Bars. My Dream replacement
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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
yep i saw that video,, shocking, but if a theif wants that bike he will sure get it by any means

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Unknown · June 2007

that guy is REALLY straining and those are the largest bolt croppers you can get..

no average joe will have that kit lying about to nick your bike with..
i have the same locks, mounted to a secure gold wall anchor and they are insured..

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Unknown · June 2007

BTW the easiest way is freeze and smash it with a hammer... dunno what this proves other then they own some bloody big bolt croppers [:)]

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Unknown · June 2007

Mmm i have some croppers that size. i also have a cordless angle grinder. plus a set of allen keys.

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Unknown · June 2007

oh btw checout the almax series 4 video...

they are NO WAY putting the same forces into that lock as the others and WOW it survives!! aammmaaaazingggg!!! also they are trying to bolt crop the lock NOT the chain!

NOT..

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Clunkwmb · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fozzybear

i have the same locks, mounted to a secure gold wall anchor and they are insured..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mad Splasher

It's a cynical thing to say, but buying a lock is not about physically preventing theives from stealing your bike, it's about making your bike a lot more hassle to steal than someone else's.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Isn't that the 2 main reasons for getting a decent lock?

Unknown · June 2007

Visual deterrant is a big factor for the casual and moderate thief. Maybe not to those who walk around with 4ft bolt croppers though!

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Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by supersonic

Visual deterrant is a big factor for the casual and moderate thief. Maybe not to those who walk around with 4ft bolt croppers though!

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">correct lots of locks will stop the casual theif.

but if some-one wants it then if they see a patern the bike is gone.

nick
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marika · June 2007

i'm sure the thing with the gold awards and thatcham is they cant damage it ,so obviously it will last 5 mins if you dont cut it etc

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marika · June 2007

besides if they want it they will just wait till you unlock it and fill you in,far easier.

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whitedragon101 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fozzybear

oh btw checout the almax series 4 video...

they are NO WAY putting the same forces into that lock as the others and WOW it survives!! aammmaaaazingggg!!! also they are trying to bolt crop the lock NOT the chain!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree, I hadn't checked out the videos of their locks. They really do pansy around. They make every effort to put the bolt croppers in a position where they put minimal force on the chain and then pull them in a way that generates almost no laverage. The only reason to do this would be if they know it can be bolt cropped.

I have also noticed something else they use to help the boltcropping. A large grip mat on the floor, without it the croppers would slide sideways. So I think my locks are as safe as i thought. What I wanted was a lock that would require tools so large you would need a van. I think a 2 meter square grip mat and 4 foot bolt croppers would require a van. Plus I have seen another video of them breaking a fahgetaboutit chain last year and then too they mysteriously seem to be missing the shackle and go for the exposed link.

Atz · June 2007

Friend of mine had his motorbike stolen from outside his flat in the middle of the night. They took the bike, lock and concreted in anchor. Goes to show that if people want it, they're having it.

Almax9633 · June 2007

Fozzybear Posted - 22/06/2007 : 21:24:34

oh btw checout the almax series 4 video...

they are NO WAY putting the same forces into that lock as the others and WOW it survives!! aammmaaaazingggg!!! also they are trying to bolt crop the lock NOT the chain!

NOT..

Hi, my name is Alex and I am the smaller of the 2 chaps on the video. Firstly the whole video was witnessed by a Rider's Digest reporter. If you look on the video we firstly changed the blades for new ones, then tried to crop the Almax but were unable to gain any leverage, next we put a small dink in the blade by cutting the Abus Granit. This allowed us to get purchase and proceeded to put enough force on the croppers to make the handles meet!!!! It wrote off the croppers and twisted the straps/jaws. I don't see how anyone who took anytime to watch the video can say we did not try to crop the Almax. This is exactly how we test our chain before putting it out for sale. Fact is it takes seconds to crop a chain, there is no protection against this form of attack even if its tight and off the floor unless your chain cannot be cropped in the first place.

Keeping a chain off the floor, locked tight to your bike will stop freeze/sledge and wedge attacks but not cropper attacks. As for the size of the croppers, considering they go in the back of the van, which is the same place the bike is going it matters not a jot. Noise is the enemy of the scrotes not just time, if they can attack with stealth then time is of little issue.

The Kryptonite's best Fahgetaboudit chain failed in less than 7 seconds on a recent film we did for one of the national tv stations last month!

We do this for 2 reasons, one its good PR to show your product is better than the rest. But the biggest reason is that we are trying to get the testing bodies to up the stakes when it comes to passing security poducts and make it tougher to pass, this would in the end result in chains and locks that pass Thatcham or Sold Secure to actually do what the say on the tin and last 5 mins.

We did not try the Squire lock (RRP œ102.50 CEN rating 6) on our chain but the link next to the lock, we also show the slight marking the croppers made on our chain link at the end of the video. If the video was a fake, then I would have been spending most of my time in court fighting off our competitors in multiple liable actions.

As for the Irwins, we asked our local police what the scrotes use to cut chains and they gave us the exact model Irwin record 42" HU as the favoured weapons of choice. Sold Secure also test with the exact same croppers. The "magic" carpet was for the larger guys knees and since the croppers are designed to grip on concrete the carpet did not offer any assistance at all . I have cropped chains on concrete/tarmac and grass and it makes no differece to the end result.

Please feel free to contact us if you have any doubt to our claims via our website. As for a real world attack how about this video that was sent to us by one of our happy Series III customers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfwgDuJV6ZU

As for the Almax Series IV its 19mm thick and just to big to get any purchase on as the handles end up to far apart.

Best Regards

Alex

StefanH · June 2007

Nice rebuttal [:)]

My next chain will be an Almax, for sure. Not only because I have a love for British engineering (of which this is a fine example) but also because I love the thought of wasting the time of chav thieves.

Fat bloke in a pink shirt · June 2007

I'm the other bloke. I'm not going to try and convince anyone either way, but I do take exception to the accusation of not giving my best on the Almaxes. The Record 42" croppers are rated for 16mm bar MAX, go sticking 19mm bar in there and the angle of the handles becomes so extreme that the only way to get any pressure on the blades is to stand on a box. When I cropped the 16mm Almax you can see that the handles touched and the Almax was intact because it had bent the jaws. It's not a case of whether anyone was trying or not, it's a simple case of physics. 42" croppers impart 14 or so tonnes of pressure, the 16mm chain takes over 35 tonnes before going KABOOM!, the 19mm even more. The demo using the croppers is ultimately pointless but only exists to silence the bleaters and whingers who have little or no experience in defeating motorcycle and bicycle security.
As for the "magic carpet", have look at this vid, Squire MC4 cropped in my garden on grass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InZ2g2EbYsk

Again, nothing sneaky about cropping any chain under 16mm, it's all well within the working parameters of the croppers, nothing special about it. The real problem is people like Thatcham and Sold Secure not doing their job properly and passing el cheapo security as 5 minute attack tested when it can't even withstand 30 seconds.

It's up you you guys now, you have the information, you can use it for your benefit or wallow in denial and put your bike at risk. You call.

Fatty.

marika · June 2007

its all gone quiet over there oh its all gone quiet over there

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Fat bloke in a pink shirt · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by marika

its all gone quiet over there oh its all gone quiet over there

My puppy Local Loop
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's usually the people who have just spent a shedload of œœœ on unsuitable security that develop the Invincible Shield of La-la-la, Can't Hear You La-la-la......[:D]

ED209 · June 2007

Fair play for posting here you lads are pretty convincing.

As a total layman I'm curious though, what's the deal with your chains in particular - why are they so much stronger? Is it size, the alloy used, or what?

And, why doesn't everyone else replicate it? I would have thought by the time someone builds a steel mill it's not more expensive making a state-of-the-art chain than it is an inferior-but-still-chunky one [:)]

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Satchmo245 · June 2007

From watching the vids the first thing I noticed was the angle of the cutters when trying to cut the Almax chain (I presume this was the result of a thicker chain) was greater than that of the others tested. The guy cutting was not able to get his weight over the cutters and I feel this may be one of the reasons why he had so much trouble. I'm not sure of the strength of the chain but if thieves will struggle due to it's size then surely that's an improvement in safety????

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Fat bloke in a pink shirt · June 2007

FWIW, we're moving on to D Locks now. Initial indications whould show that these can be breached silently and while arousing very little suspicion using a tool that will fit in your pocket. Almax know more about this than me right now.

Early days yet but it's not looking good for MOST D locks, some will be fine but I suspect they'll be the high end Abus stuff (œ120+)

Fat bloke in a pink shirt · June 2007

And here's another little fake I rustled up, so convincing that RiDE magazine picked up the ball and forced Oxford into withdrawing them from sale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zy8sEj8etU

buddha · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by marika

its all gone quiet over there oh its all gone quiet over there<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
To be fair, Fozzy can't reply as he's on his hols, riding the Alps (lucky git!)

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buddha · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fat bloke in a pink shirt

FWIW, we're moving on to D Locks now. Initial indications whould show that these can be breached silently and while arousing very little suspicion using a tool that will fit in your pocket. Almax know more about this than me right now.

Early days yet but it's not looking good for MOST D locks, some will be fine but I suspect they'll be the high end Abus stuff (œ120+)
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Almax9633 · June 2007

The series III 16mm had the bolt croppers handles meet, so this means Zanx had to impart enough force to bend 2 15mm thick plates and the jaws which are aligned together by some serious bolts. With the Series IV 19mm to be honest its a waste of time using the croppers, the angle of the handles even when the link is in the end of the jaws means, as you say its virtualy impossible to impart any force. Given the Series III breaks the croppers it stands to reason the Series IV if enough force could be put down would render them usless as they are both made of the same quadruple tempered boron manganese steel alloy.

Our long link system also allows any user to insert any end link through any other link in the chain. This means unlike most other chains you can lock the chain off tight regardless of the length of chain which will stops as mentioned earlier (you can slice the sleeve as it's designed not to fall apart), sledge/wedge and freeze attacks. No chain is perfect but they should at least survive a basic bolt cropper attack which it appears the vast majority of chains that are approve fail to do. It would not be so bad had we been talking a matter of missing the target of 5 mins by a few seconds,but as you can see most the chains lasted less than 30 seconds with the most commonly used bolt cropper attack.

Fahgetaboutit lock

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