2024 UK politics - now with Labour in charge
Comments
-
It is a viable alternative to concentrating, I agree.
0 -
sovereignty from the perspective of modern communications...
https://www.submarinecablemap.com/
the uk has no sovereign control, the other end can always pull the plug, or there can be 'accidents' along the way
sovereignty evolves with reality, it's a world interconnected by treaties, comms, travel, trade etc.
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
You'll be able to point to where I said sovereignty was unimportant.
The actions of Poland and Hungary and lack of consequences suggest that the supposedly pooled sovereignty is not all that pooled.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Sovereignty is for dreamers. Treaties are where reality lies.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
And making collective decisions at the appropriate level, whether that's parish council, local authority, country, nation or transnational (e.g. EU). That several of the things that Brexit allowed (e.g. setting standards) have been ditched as businesses recognise they will de facto have to match the standards of the major trading blocs demonstrate that 'sovereignty' is under constant negotiation within and without national boundaries. And you can be involved in those negotiations, or exclude yourself.
0 -
Ahem.
Treaties are great but...
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Ukraine was sovereign too, but….
The further reality is actions mean more than the written word, means more than the verbal word; and you find out who your real friends are in times of adversity.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Sovereignty has only changed to the extent that technology makes it much more likely to clash with someone else's, thereby requiring a treaty.
This is a completely uninformed post.
0 -
Tell that to the EU.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
OK, glad you agree with me. I'm sure it also helps you understand why we left the EU.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
because there were some very effective liars and a significant number of people who swallowed the lies
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
No idea where you think I said that either.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Good point. Unfortunately 'Project Fear' was not a convincing enough set of lies, otherwise we might still be in the EU.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]1 -
So you don't agree and you don't disagree. What is your view on this then?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The same as what I wrote a page back. That the UK Parliament has the same sovereignty before, during and after our membership of the EU. None of which made any difference to you or me. We aren't Parliament. Individuals don't have sovereignty. The government can sign as many treaties as it likes and delegate that authority to other bodies as it sees fit, but when it boils down to it those treaties don't physically prevent the government from doing anything.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Beth Rigby made Starmer squirm today in her interview with him.
With all these gifts that MPs get, presumably they're not paying tax on the value of the benefit. Perhaps that might be a simple change, make all gifts over say £5,000 total value taxable at the MP's marginal rate of tax, so a lot would be paying 45% on the value of the gift.
1 -
It's pretty clear that to the extent that EU rules no longer bind us, we have more sovereignty. And given the EU trajectory of ever more integration, that will increase over time as we will not be losing even more.
If only the EU had stuck to being a trading bloc rather than trying to control so many different things, we'd very likely still be a member. Hey ho.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Yeah, yeah. you've done that bit before. I disagree that any sovereignty was ceded. Parliament agreed to adhere to some of the rules and negotiated exceptions or opt outs from others. Those rules only came into UK Law via UK Act of Parliament. It then decided it wanted that no longer.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Seems sensible, not sure why it isn’t treated as BIK. Any gift to an employee over £50 becomes taxable, not sure what applies on gifts from clients.
0 -
I know I have. It's pretty clear that any EU rules which no longer apply and decisions which were previously taken by the EU but now by the UK is an increase in sovereignty for the UK. And vice versa, obviously. It's also pretty clear that there has been a shift to the UK and we will have prevented a further shift towards the EU.
But as mentioned above, if sovereignty wasn't important them the EU wouldn't be trying to get so much of it.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
My point is that they were as much our rules as 'their' rules. Both because they didn't take effect without an Act of Parliament and because the UK was instrumental in developing some of the rules in the first place.
The ultimate sanction the EU has is expulsion of a member, and even that requires the cooperation of the other members. So the EU itself doesn't pass the 'ultimate authority' test. I'm sure TBB and possibly you disagree with this view, but there you go.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I'm happy for you and others to have that view. I don't have really have a view because I think it is just semantics - there is a nice quote in the wikipedia article from 100+ years ago about how hard it is define sovereignty. You, and others, know what people mean when they say they want more sovereignty, so there is nothing to be gained by arguing over the exact meaning. I would even go as far as to say there is plenty to be lost as it appears condescending - that's how this whole discussion started.
1 -
I'd agree with you about how hard it is to define sovereignty. My condescending tone was as much as anything because it was being used as the trump card in the reasoning for leaving the EU, which is ridiculous if one can't define it in the first place... i.e., people didn't know what they were voting for, if one can't define it.
0 -
Don't think there's anything ambiguous about 'ultimate authority'. Either a person or body has it or they don't.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I think when most people talk about sovereignty in relation to the EU, they are basically talking about a complete detachment from any EU influence; legal, political and economic.
From a legal perspective, there is so much retained EU law, the idea that a govt. would or could revoke or replace it all in our lifetimes is highly improbable. Even if they wanted to, the legal, logistical and economic constraints would be huge.
As for political and economic sovereignty, this is all relational. We still want to trade with the EU, we want border and security agreements and retain a strong diplomatic presence. As such we are still operating under agreements and legislation across many themes as we were pre Brexit.
You can make the argument that we are just free not to enter into any of this, that is some notion of 'sovereignty', but if you really understand the legal aspect the truth is far more complicated.
For most people I think sovereignty is really a theoretical concept, and they are free to feel that the UK is now somehow a 'sovereign' nation. The reality is that we are really nothing of the sort.
0 -
You just need to accept it's all about the vibes of it.
0 -
This.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Do the vibes mean that condescension is helpful or not?
0 -
How is the view from your glass house, BB?
0
