2024 UK politics - now with Labour in charge
Comments
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When do you think Labour will manage to do that?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
They're similar to all new governments. Removing the winter fuel allowance is unpopular, but sensible. Talking down the economy and adding VAT on private school fees are both popular and not sensible.
Similarly, the Tories talked up giving doctors more say in the running primary care which result in the end of the PCTs. This was popular and not sensible. They also squeezed a bloated public sector which was probably unpopular, but sensible.
Blair signed the social chapter with the EU. Popular with his supporters, but probably not sensible in the long run.
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As much as anything (as well as spinelessness and populist leanings in the first place) this was how the Tories got dragged so far right on the 'sovrintee' issue... trying to chase the headlines of the Express and Mail, and latterly the Telegraph when it had gone full-loon after their 'reluctant Remain' phase. The trouble was that each time they moved a bit to the right, the RW press then took that as a signal that they could call the shots/dictate the 'narrative'. I assume the RW press didn't go after the massive bungs going everywhere (and thence the increase in the tax burden) as the largesse was going to the kind of people who wanted to push the 'sovrintee' thing more than anything else.
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the opposition is meant to help make things better for the country, scrutinising legislation, proposing amendments, holding government to account for material failures
parliament has degenerated into petty posturing and schoolyard squabbling, witness the farce of prime minister's questions
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny1 -
But I don't think that the Tories were trying to 'make the country better' from Johnson onwards... it was just interested in power for its own sake, and now they are just trying to undermine Labour, without any sort of cogent vision of their 'plan' (which they didn't really have ready for the GE, after all, despite repeating "The plan is working" 263 times per day up till then). At least May tried to square the circle.
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While we're on the subject of VAT, the threshold for VAT registration is something that Reeves could have a look at.
I also wish Reeves would just own the WFA removal. It's a poorly thought out benefit in the first place.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
What makes you think they won't do that?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
What the Tories did or didn't do isn't relevant here.
I agree that removing the WFA was probably sensible financially, but less so politically.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
their behaviour so far
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
i don't think they were trying to make the country better at any point after cameron blew it by caving in to the brexiters
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
I hate to give any credit at all, but I think May was genuinely trying to make the best out of the impossible task she'd been given, as discussed ad nauseam on the relevant thread. Her 'best solution' of any sort of Brexit wasn't going to make the country's finances any better, but less bad than a truly no-deal version or what we got in the end.
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Why are you deliberately misspelling sovereignty ?
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I'm making fun of it, because few of the people who keep using the magic word can explain what they really mean by it. It goes along with 'woke' and 'elites' as trigger words people have been trained to get all exercised about.
As we've discovered, making up non-aligned standards in the name of sovereignty (supposedly a benefit of Brexit) just means we cut ourselves off from markets, so sovereignty is largely a chimera: we end up bowing to the big economic blocs one way or another, unless we just want to be a lonely poor little island doing its own thing.
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You've identified a trade off between sovereignty and economics. Some people think the trade off was worth it whereas you don't. Both can be valid reasonable opinions. I'm not sure smugly dismissing the validity of another opinion helps the argument.
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I'm unconvinced Brexit made any difference to the sovereignty of the UK Parliament. It chose to abide by rules of the EU and then it chose to do so no longer.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
You can use a very literal definition such as that, but I think that is just intentionally misunderstanding and therefore not adding a lot.
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What other definition should I be using? It's pretty straightforwardly listed in any dictionary.
If people start assigning their own meanings to words I guess they can say it means anything they want.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It clearly matters to a lot of people outside of the Cake Stop bubble. And mattered to enough people to win a referendum on the matter.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Wikipedia provides a comprehensive answer to this question complete with references and history. Most people won't need this level of detail though.
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if you tell enough people enough lies, plenty will believe them
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
I don't see anything there that contradicts what I wrote. Parliament has supreme authority and retained supreme authority throughout our membership. It delegated some legislative powers but you can't delegate without authority.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Post World War II world order
Today, no state is sovereign in the sense they were prior to the Second World War.[34] Transnational governance agreements and institutions, the globalized economy,[35] and pooled sovereignty unions such as the European union have eroded the sovereignty of traditional states. The centuries long movement which developed a global system of sovereign states came to an end when the excesses of World War II made it clear to nations that some curtailment of the rights of sovereign states was necessary if future cruelties and injustices were to be prevented.[36][37] In the years immediately prior to the war, National Socialist theorist Carl Schmitt argued that sovereignty had supremacy over constitutional and international constraints arguing that states as sovereigns could not be judged and punished.[38] After the Holocaust, the vast majority of states rejected the prior Westphalian permissiveness towards such supremacist power based sovereignty formulations and signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. It was the first step towards circumscription of the powers of sovereign nations, soon followed by the Genocide Convention which legally required nations to punish genocide. Based on these and similar human rights agreements, beginning in 1990 there was a practical expression of this circumscription when the Westphalian principle of non-intervention was no longer observed for cases where the United Nations or another international organization endorsed a political or military action. Previously, actions in Yugoslavia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Somalia, Rwanda, Haiti, Cambodia or Liberia would have been regarded as illegitimate interference in internal affairs. In 2005, the revision of the concept of sovereignty was made explicit with the Responsibility to Protect agreement endorsed by all member states of the United Nations. If a state fails this responsibility either by perpetrating massive injustice or being incapable of protecting its citizens, then outsiders may assume that responsibility despite prior norms forbidding such interference in a nation's sovereignty.[39]
European integration is the second form of post-world war change in the norms of sovereignty, representing a significant shift since member nations are no longer absolutely sovereign. Some theorists, such as Jacques Maritain and Bertrand de Jouvenel have attacked the legitimacy of the earlier concepts of sovereignty, with Maritain advocating that the concept be discarded entirely since it:[36]
stands in the way of international law and a world state,
internally results in centralism, not pluralism
obstructs the democratic notion of accountability
Efforts to curtail absolute sovereignty have met with substantial resistance by sovereigntist movements in multiple countries who seek to "take back control" from such transnational governance groups and agreements, restoring the world to pre World War II norms of sovereignty.[40]
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As pointless cake stop arguments go, I feel like this might be a winner.
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It's more a debate for people who studied history isn't it?
I feel bereft of unverified expertise.
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Think we've seen plenty of evidence that the 'post WWII order' was and is observed more on paper than reality. Russia is a permanent member of the UN Security Council despite invading several neighbours. Even within the supposedly pooled sovereignty of the EU, enforcement of the rules and norms seems to be utterly ineffectual: Hungary is actively supporting a direct threat to the EU and there's been some serious tutting.
Anyway back to national politics.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Maybe he's on a mission to fill the position left vacant by Rick? 🙂
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Have you allowed that to stop you before?
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Nice. Are you planning to quit the forum?
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Are you likening my gentle ribbing to Rick's full blown assault?
In answer to your question, no I am not planning to quit. Where else can I argue over trivial stuff whilst at work?
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