2024 UK politics - now with Labour in charge
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If you are poor, why have 3, 4 or 5 kids? You are putting them into poverty.
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^^ see what I mean?
yeah a yougov poll had 60% of the population in favour of the cap with 20% “don’t knows” so yes very popular.
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Yeah, definitely too many people having children.🤪
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
A mixture of eugenics and the idea that poverty is some indicator of moral and physical inferiority. All born of a fear that if there are too many poor people they might get ideas.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The other argument is that the additional local government spending required to meet their legal obligations as a result of the 2-child cap far outstrips the saving achieved to central government from the cap (they claim it's a pretty minimal £190million).
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Cut immigration and also dissuade people who are here from having children. Sounds mad to me given our demographics.
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So you think it's a good idea for poor people to have lots of kids, so they bring up more children in poverty.
Unless you can afford it, why on earth do you need more than two kids?
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It is obviously a nasty policy and just makes most things worse but the fury with which my wife came home when she overheard the nasty mother of a nasty boy who was riling up children parents and teachers alike with an electric quad bike waxing lyrical how she bought it with her benefit money (I too heard so I can vouch)
She’s a sensible woman but honestly she was furious - “why should they get money for bringing up a little shit” etc and tbh, in the moment you sympathise.
Obviously the policy only makes it worse and doesn’t solve it but it you can see why it’s popular.
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(And to be clear, the kids who were kicking the shit out of me, day in, day out, they were the kids who’s parents lived off benefits so if I wasn’t politically interested enough to consider the policy on its own merits I would not hesitate in depriving them of hand outs. The reality is their dire situations create socially unacceptable people which makes it extremely hard to sympathise with them)
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The dilemma of course is that a society shouldn't be punishing children for the circumstances and choices of their parents, but at the same time poor (or any) parents having more children than they can afford and look after properly isn't helping a cohesive society.
As a not-parent, I can't help thinking that there must be a more nuanced method than Child Benefit, whose simplicity, when it was introduced, was admirable (not least in its going direct to the 'housewife'). But to uncap the benefit would seem to give the wrong incentive now.
Maybe Reeves's coyness is because they are thinking about other ways to support children of poor families other than giving all the benefits directly as money-per-child (e.g. free breakfasts and other in-school provision). That'd be my hunch, though probably a bad one.
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Maybe not an incentive as such (I dunno, that would need some in-depth discussions with poor parents with large families to ascertain), but the State saying it'll pay a flat rate for an unlimited number of children doesn't seem to be a disincentive to making unwise decisions.
I'm not pretending to have easy answers, but the messaging, both conscious and unconscious, of how benefits and allowances/support are structured surely can surely nudge people into making better decisions.
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And neither, demonstrably, is the absence of it a deterrent to having kids.
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I think it's a good idea for people to have kids. I don't think any government should be determining who may and who may not have children. That way is a slippery slope to arguing for the poor and infirm to be sterilised 'for their own good' and we are done with that shit.
The amounts saved by introducing the cap are pretty trivial in the scheme of things - a tiny fraction of the amount spent on the Winter Fuel Allowance, but obviously the elderly poor are more deserving than the young. So it's really not a question of whether it can be afforded: just a choice to spend the money on something else.
Human beings do actually need to have more than two children on average in order to maintain a stable population. So yes, at a population level we do need more than 2 children. Pretty sure I covered this in GCSE Geography. For fairly obvious evolutionary reasons, human beings in precarious circumstances are predisposed to have more children. The converse is also true. As people become more comfortable they have fewer children. This is where we and most developed countries are.
At the other end of life, I can certainly tell you from experience that having a sibling or two to share the load of caring for an elderly or dying parent makes all the difference in the world.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Does handing out a couple of £billion a year in WFA act as a disincentive for people to not make wise decisions about insulating their homes? Does the state pension disincentivise people from making wise provision for their retirement?
Or do we accept that life rarely runs to plan and that people who have made all the 'right' choices can still end up in need of financial support for a variety of reasons.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I think I prefer the "big government is bad" right wingers to the "let's have state sponsored sterilization on the povos" ones!
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Simplified, does how the government hand out money incentivise and disincentivise... well, I'd suggest that overall, yes it does, to greater or lesser extent. The devil's in the detail, which is why I think Rachel Reeves isn't making hasty promises or pronouncements.
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It's £16.95 a week for the second child. If reintroduced for a third it would likely be less again. It's barely going to cover the extra food.
Looked at another way, it's had no obvious effect on poorer families having more than 2 children but the birth rate has continued to fall. It seems to be stopping the 'wrong' people from breeding.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I sometimes wonder do the right wing 'you shouldn't have children you can't afford' and the right wing 'omg why aren't women having children anymore' ever meet up.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Musk and all his Techbro pro-natalists?
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Whoever was waxing lyrical about the new online triage system for GPs.
Just filled one out for one of the children. "we'll get back to you within 3 working days"
What a joke.
The state of public services is utterly appalling.
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They probably think both are true depending on what the question being asked is. As many idiots have proven over the years, it's amazing how many conflicting opinions can be held in little tiny minds.
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It gives some people a feeling of purpose and fulfilment they aren't getting from a career - either because they don't work or their work isn't fulfilling.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Life isn't quite as neat and tidy as all children being carefully planned. People's circumstances change as well.
BTW, the annual bill to remove the 2-child cap is about a quarter of what has been spent to not deport anyone to Rwanda.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I read somewhere that Labour may close all the remaining grammar schools. The whole tutoring for 11+ seems bonkers to me, so perhaps this should have been a priority ahead of VAT on private schools.
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Surprised Stevo hasn’t been on to gloat and Labour’s majority already being reduced. Anyone thinking Starmer will have his strings pulled by the Left may have to think again.
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Why make the effort when I have people like you to do it or me? 😉
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
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Someone needed to write a report to get those conclusions?
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