Head partially gone I suppose, lack of motivation for lots of things, cycling included

daniel_b

Thanks @First.Aspect for your considered reply.

I'm sorry it's a hard read, though to be fair it has helped me, and if there's a chance it might help some others, then it is potentially proving useful to a wider audience.

I have my bl00d test booked for late next Thursday, earliest appointment I could get - the other one I can do whenever, just need to muster up a suitable pot to p1ss in ;-)

The more people I speak to, the more I am thinking CBT might not be what I need, but I'm definitely going to refer myself for our local NHS talking therapies thingy and see what that yields, I've nothing to lose I would wager.

I'm assuming SSRI's are meds? I'm definitely going to leave that as a last resort.

Yeh I totally realise my fitness is not going to be what it once was, though having come to proper training at a late age of pretty much being 40, I do wish I'd had access to these training tools 20 years previously, but there we go.

I do think though I can still get back to a decent level of fitness, and still cut it on fast rides with our clubs, not the very fastest, but one rung down I think - that will require a rebuild, and shedding some of this excess weight I have accrued though.

Tuesday night I got around to cleaning the garage area where my turbo is, so that's all had a good hoover, and I've re-installed the recently serviced Turbo trainer, and re-docked the turbo bike, so that is all ready to go, which is great.

Good shout on the non competitive aspect, I can't swim, so the first 3 on your useful list are out for me, but I have been doing some walking recently, and yes maybe some fell running (Is that just a bit like trail running?) could be interesting, as even walking fast is somewhat slow.

It could be partly loneliness for sure, though I would tend to say I am more introvert than extrovert.

I'm generally happy/content in my own company if that makes sense, and am happy to find something to entertain myself with, be it chores, exercise of some type, reading, watching a program or sport.

The good news is I can pretty much abandon riding to the office that has no drying facilities, and either cadge a lift or drive there very sporadically - the much closer office I have a locker at, and if I am not in the mood it can be as little as 5-6k each way, but I'm aiming to ride a much longer (32k) route in the morning, and then after work I can either come straight home via the shortest route, or if I am feeling good can extend it accordingly.

Going in to the office isn't a guaranteed fix anyway sadly, as with the mass of people wfh, it's entirely possible I will go in and see none of the people I work with regularly - I got lucky on Tuesday and saw one chap who I get on with well and have a lot of time for, but that was it!

First.Aspect

Learn to swim? It's not hard and opens up seeing the land from the water, even if like me you have little interest in being in it. Plus it's a new and potentially enjoyable endeavour in itself.

Even 10m from the shore you'd be surprised how one's perspective changes. Yes you move comparatively slowly, but there is a satisfaction about being self-propelled just as there is with cycling. Shorelines and bodies of water also tend, in my experience, to be nice places to visit.

I can't run at all, btw, hence I tend to err towards non weight bearing things. Aside from cycling, that seems to mostly involve floating.

The transition post COVID to home working is double edged. I WFH and I try to get out for 25-35k 2 or 3 lunchtimes a week. No one minds if I'm away 90 mins. Means I get a dose of daylight all year round. But it can be isolating.

I think you've made a big step opening up, by the way. And I also think you'll be fine, because you've been strong enough to do that already. Might not feel like it, but that's the thing about being depressed.

Coming out of it isn't like turning a light on either. You just realise at some point that you aren't.

Yes, I do speak from personal experience. As do others who have contributed I think.

daniel_b

It's a fine shout, and one I did start looking into just before lockdown hit, though hadn't got to the point of booking anything.

I see my partner and daughter enjoying their time in the water and going paddle boarding etc, and I can see they are having fun, but I think my problem is I have a genuine fear of swimming, and have literally never had any lessons, or any tuition at any point in my life, so it's pretty well embedded - even paddling out to what most people would deem a shallow depth freaks me out.

Work is also quite full on at the time being, feeling like I am behind where I need to be, so putting in some extra hours and effort to try and remedy that - what with that, having a relatively young daughter still, and my partner working a lot of hours for her own business, it doesn't feel like there is much spare time, either for chilling out, or getting on the bike, and yes I am starting to feel the urge to get back on the bike which is good :-)

I can run pretty badly, but I have enjoyed it once I have gotten a bit fitter, and then it feels less effortful, and more flowing if that makes sense - however I have never been this heavy, so it may be a big ask of the old knees.

I'm lucky with my work as well, they are super flexible, so I often in the past have taken a 2 hour break, and carried out a turbo session, and then showered before getting back to work.

The reason I don't tend to go out during the day is that I don't want to risk a mechanical meaning I can't get back for a meeting or something - they are fine with me being flexible with hours, but I don't want them ever to think I am taking the p1ss and stop letting me do what I need to do.

Thankyou, it feels like a big step, and also quite a weight off my shoulders in a number of ways, as a caveat, it has taken me about 12 months, so not the most speedy of awakenings shall we say........

This combined with talking to the doctor, people at work and referring for the counselling service I feel are all positive moves, so I think it kind of feels like I am vaguely in control as opposed to simply being a passenger.

I can well imagine it is a very gradual process, but I'll endeavour to remember to update on here on how things progress, or regress, hopefully just the former, but it's not the end of the world if it's not one way traffic.

molteni_man

Hey Dan,

I’ve been off the forum as I vowed less screen time… which has been good for me.

I’ve just come across your thread and the range of helpful thoughts you have received. It can certainly be good to share and discuss!

In your first posting you mentioned approaching 48 and I just wanted to share that this age in my life was a big time for reappraisal and thoughts of where I was heading as I got nearer to being 50. I wasn’t depressed or anything, but it was just that there were some changes with my two young people going off to Uni ( something I’d always wanted!, but meant a change in role as a parent, mortgage paid off ( a good thing!) and thinking about what I wanted to do with my career. It came out positively with a change of job, a challenging job, but one that gives lots of great satisfaction. BUT it was an unsettling time as I adapted.

I just wonder if this might be a part of what you are going through. I’m not sure if I have described the feeling accurately, but just a thought. Funnily enough I didn’t mind being 50 as I felt it gave me the air of someone wise : - )

The other thought is that it has been a terrible autumn and winter weather wise and I am certain this has had a bad effect on most of us. We need some sunshine! My wife and I managed a week in sunny Monaco back in February and it was the best tonic! Could you and your family do something similar sooner rather than later …. particularly as the weather is still yet to pick up! Cornwall last week was great, but I have vowed to go somewhere sunnier next Easter!

On the forum I have always enjoyed your positive enthusiasm which comes across in all of your posts and the way you have set about tackling this is another great example of this. I wish you well.

Very best wishes and take care.

Molteni

daniel_b

Hey @molteni_man,

thankyou for your kind words, much appreciated :-)

Although I am a similar age, I think we are at vastly different paths in our lives - my only daughter is 11 this year, and due to a house extension I still unfortunately have a whacking great (to me) mortgage 😐️

I do wonder though if it is partly a case of getting to this point, and kind of realising this is what it is, and how it will be, if that makes sense - by the time she flies the nest I will be a minimum of 55, but probably more like 57 or even older in reality, and I suppose that is a somewhat sobering thought, and I think strengthens the case for 'if you are going to have children, have them early'

I am currently in a challenging job, mostly due to the fact it is outside of my comfort zone, but it's good to be pushed and not stagnate I guess, but there is a balance to be had!

I do like that feeling though when I simply know what I am doing, and am confident in whatever I have to face, it's a nice comfortable place to be.

You are right on the weather front, it has been shockingly bad, and I'm definitely someone who NEEDS sunshine and warmth - actually speaking of that, I used to have a dream of retiring to France or Italy, and enjoying cycling on the beautiful roads, and enjoying the fine wine, food and a more relaxed outdoor lifestyle - that of course is now much more difficult to achieve, and thinking about it now, I wonder if that dream I had being taken away has added to everything else.

It may have been we never did it anyway, but it was something I had been holding onto and thinking about probably for the last 20 years.

Not long after my daughter was born in 2013 we were in conversation with a couple who were looking to sell a Cycling friendly B&B in southern France, but we never got very far with discussions or negotiations sadly, they weren't hugely helpful to be fair.

On more positive topics, I have the half term week booked off, but of course we are restricted to school holidays now, so costs are significant where ever we go, though I am thinking of another visit to my home city of Norwich, which I always find quite rejuvenating, especially if the weather is good.

I've been to Monaco twice, both times just me and my partner, and absolutely loved it, as both a F1 fan of about 44 years, seeing the roads for the first time in real life was mind blowing, and also of course all of the exotica that drives around during the day - such a nice place to walk around - we covered 10 miles that day, walking all over, and up into the old town I think it is called - happen to be a big Grace Kelly fan too.

Once again, thankyou for your kind comments, it's taken me 12 months or so to get here, but thanks to all the helpful replies on here, messages, and conversations with my partner and friends etc, I'm certainly feeling in a much more positive frame of mind.

Just about to book a couple of days off in May so my partner and I can have a day out, daughter has scouts that day too, so if we can arrange her going home with a friend who also attends scouts, we could have a full 12 hours to ourselves, so maybe a bike ride or walk in the day, and then a meal out in the evening :-)

Cheers :-)

molteni_man

https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/comment/21060792#Comment_21060792

Hey again Dan,

You have definitely got some great plans Dan AND the weather is definitely on the way up too……. at last!!!

Re Monaco - if you are ever out there again there is a fantastic museum down in the port which is Prince Rainier’s private car collection. You would love it - a load of F1 cars, some exotica and some other interesting cars such as Princess Grace’s Sunbeam Alpine from To Catch a Thief. All cars are ready to drive. Entrance is just €10.

https://www.mtcc.mc/

I’ve only been able to do walks out there having had a severe Labyrinthitis attack back in September which left me with ongoing quite severe sbalance and dizziness issues. I’m not long back on the road bike which has been challenging ( and daunting!) to begin with, but helpful in retraining my brain to be able to deal with the dizziness. Being outdoors and sunshine definitely helps so fingers crossed for better weather for all of us going forwards. I can’t wait to get over there again to stay with my son and get some rides in up some of those famous nearby hills and mountains! I think I’ll be ok to ride next visit ….. hopefully!! Josh is out there working for his bank renting a tiny one bed apartment by the old port which is worth about £1.6 million!! He moved out to be near as possible to the Alps for skiing, climbing and walking.

This episode of Labyrinthitis and a knee replacement just over a year ago has certainly reinforced how important good health is and made me so grateful of the simple pleasure of a bike ride. I still get a mixture of better and not so good days. Like you I have remained positive and determined whilst doing lots of research and trying different things to improve. Riding is challenging still as I feel ‘detached’ from the bike. Once again your attitude to ‘conquer’ how you are feeling is to be commended.

Best wishes

daniel_b

Thanks @molteni_man, never knew about that museum, that's a great shout, and I will file it away, 10 euros is really good value, plus the Sunbeam alpine would be a pleasure to see :-)

We did find a very good value Haagen Dazs in a little park just over the road from the Casino, which we thought would be crazy money, but was priced the same as, or even less than it would have been in the uk - this was some 15 years ago I would wager, so it may have changed, but we were very pleasantly surprised.

I have never heard of labyrinthitis before I read this, that sounds quite debilitating and rather frustrating I would suspect.

Well done for getting back on the bike, I can see how it would be easy to let that put you off.

That's awesome your son is living over there, what a dram that must be, even if he only stays for a year or so, memories made forever, can't imagine how amazing it must be to call Monaco your home, even for a short time.

Is he able to get into the city (and you) to watch the GP do you know?

I know there are many many current and ex drivers who live there, and many of them love to cycle, I wonder who you might bump into out on their bike :-)

I did ride down to Salisbury on Saturday, it was a very leisurely ride with a coffee stop mid morning, and then a long lunch as well - it's only 50 miles for pities sake, but the last quarter I was struggling with - admittedly I also had two panniers full and a rack bag, so maybe could have packed lighter, but wanted clothes for the evening, and with the constantly changing conditions (hot sun, no breeze no sun gusty wind) meant I did need quite a few clothing options - not to mention the fact that my recent weight gain means that most of my nice kit I currently would struggle to get into, and or look like a sausage wearing it.

Anyway, it would seem that my posterior is far from happy with spending that long on a saddle, and I was in a fair bit of discomfort in the latter stages and in the evening regrettably, though it was a lovely evening eating and drinking with friends - I wasn't stupid though, I just had a 330ml Peroni, and a 500ml Doombar.

The Premier inn was quite warm though, and I didn't sleep well, felt pretty ropey in the morning, and wasn't able to eat much breakfast - that combined with my posterior being in the state it was in, meant I had to unfortunately decide to let them ride back alone (There were 5 of them) and get the train back instead - I suggested my partner ride back with them, but she was adamant she wanted to come back with me, so we saw the rest of the group off, and then wondered into Salisbury for a look around and a coffee, before booking train tickets to get us back.

We did have to navigate the train companies methods of bike storage, which was interesting, and a bit challenging, but we managed it ok, and we made it home in good time, so could spend some more time with our daughter which was a nice benefit.

This morning I had my first ever blood test, which was fairly traumatic, as I like neither needles or blood, and then need to wait for my posterior to calm down before I can get back on a bike, out on the road or on the turbo.

I'm guessing I need to go easy, and give big gaps to start with, maybe every 3 days, and see if the posterior situation stabilises, before increasing the frequency and length of sessions.

Also wondering if I should drop my saddle a tiny bit, maybe 3 months off the bike means my body is not as used to the position, and has lost some flexibility in that time period?

Munsford0

@daniel_b Congrats on having the courage to post on here and also for seeking medical advice. You've already done the hardest thing.

Apologies for rambling on a bit, but here goes...

Based on my own experience I'd say you probably are experiencing depression. Looking back I'd say it started for me in my mid 40s, and it's still with me, lurking in the background 20+ years later. Back then the GP's first (and possibly only) resort was a low dose SSRI which just ironed out the highs and lows. It enabled me to function at work, but home and social life remained pretty bleak. Maybe 5 years later and I was on my third kind of antidepressant yet still spiralled down into a major depressive episode. It must have been outwardly obvious because my boss at one point told me to go home and phone the GP, who signed me off, upped the meds and referred me for NHS counselling. The higher dose of medication did seem to dig me out of the hole but the face to face NHS counselling quickly turned into telephone chats then fizzled out entirely.

Then I phoned the company advice line. Why I didn't do that sooner I'll never know. I must've sounded crap on the phone because pretty soon I was having weekly counselling sessions interspersed with appointments with a good psychiatrist who seemed to have the ability to prescribe stuff the GP's never offered.

At first I struggled with the counselling, but as the weeks passed he got me to open up about stuff I would never have imagined talking to a stranger about. He pretty soon identified that I needed to get out of the job role I was failing in, and the next morning I had a very open talk with my new boss who went out of her way to rearrange the department and ease me into something less stressful. This I managed for a couple more years, still pretty medicated, and also having CBT sessions which did help me manage some of my stupid negative thought patterns. Then with the boss's blessing I volunteered to take redundancy when the next round of company wide cost savings were made. Payday! They even bumped up my final salary pension to allow me to start taking it with no actuarial reduction.

So, aged 62 and freed from the tyranny of work / mortgage payments what did I do? Took a job as the DT technician in the school where our eldest son was teaching. 'Twas like being reborn. Suddenly I was doing all kinds of practical things, fixing stuff, making things, feeling appreciated and doing something genuinely useful. Son has moved on but I'm still here after 5 years. I have a workshop the size of Belgium, and access to all kinds of woodworking machinery, a laser cutter, 3D printers etc. Probably going to do another year before packing up entirely, and then I'll miss it.

Working in school has finally enabled me to ditch the meds. My wife wasn't keen but I was desperate to get back to life without them. Last thing I was on was mirtazapine plus venlafaxine, which did seem to work when other things fizzled out; getting used to the side effects was interesting enough, but coming off them was even more of a challenge. Grizzly details available on request. So if you can cope without them I'd say it's a good thing, but don't rule them out completely. They definitely helped me at times when I could barely function, but they aren't the kind of thing you can stop and start. I'd say maybe 6 weeks before I'd feel any benefit, then after a couple of years each one would start to be less effective.

For me I think the root cause was the constant pressure of having to earn to pay the mortgage and other bills, the stress of surviving several company moves, mergers and acquisitions, and ending up in increasingly stressful but largely pointless positions. I've clearly got some form of attention deficit disorder, and really struggled with the tedium of later roles. So I'd spend most of the time in my own head beating myself up for not being able to do the stuff my colleagues appeared to do with ease. Constant cycles of guilt and recrimination and fear. Surviving a week at work would leave me exhausted so the weekend would be a write-off, which wasn't fair on my wife or kids, so i'd feel guilty about that and so on to rinse and repeat indefinitely.

Curiously for me, cycling was the one thing I never lost enthusiasm for. In a world I found bewildering, relentlessly depressing and terrifying in equal measure, the bike was the only place I felt in complete control. I could go as far as I liked, at a speed I chose, stop to take in a view or push myself on a lunatic descent or lung-bursting climb. TBH I find the fact that you seem to have fallen out of love with your bikes more distressing than I should. Maybe it's because I know you've spent the GDP of a small African country on bikes and black / yellow / lurid green kit...

The saddle discomfort thing has affected me this year too. Despite working in a germ-ridden school I'm normally physically healthy but this spring I seem to have had either one respiratory infection which never really went, or a series of seemingly identical infections. Either way that, and the crap weather, mean I've only recently felt able to venture out on the bike again and at first my @rse was complaining after 20 miles 😲 Building up the mileage gradually seems to be working thankfully.

Wishing you all the best. Keep talking...

Munsford0

SSRI = selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. There's also SNRI (norephinephrine) and a host of others. But they are still arguing about how or if they work. I think the theory that depression is caused by serotonin imbalance in the brain has been debunked. Read some interesting stuff that showed they stimulate new growth in the hippocampus, which makes more sense to me. Probably a whole raft of new theories since I last had a look...

They definitely do something.

Side effects for me: terrifying and vivid dreams. Night sweats. Chronic constipation. Weird effects on libido / anorgasmia (guess or Google it...) And in the case of venlafaxine, weakness to the point of collapse when I first took it.

Side effects when weaning off them: Brain zaps which defy description, and go on for weeks. Sudden reversal of the constipation 😲 And then the constant paranoia that the depression is coming back.........

molteni_man

https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/comment/21062441#Comment_21062441

Hey again,

So pleased you got out to Salisbury- I got out on both Saturday and Sunday ( I’m down near Southampton so ride Northwards so not a million miles from Salisbury. It was not easy riding conditions on either day and temperatures were very changeable. So 50 miles is not to be sniffed at given this. It’s a good start and good to do something different and to spend time with your wife too.

Re the backside. I think maybe that’s to be expected? I use Fizik saddles and had a period of 3 months or so where they became uncomfortable for no apparent reason! After a period my comfort returned.

Hope blood test was ok - a really good check to rule out anything at all medically.

Re the Grand Prix - they are very very clever at blocking out any views at all. The Palace is on top of a large hill and even from there you can’t see anything. My idea of just rocking up and watching on the street was very naive! It’s a case of paying a large amount of Euros to watch. ( But I think it’s equally as expensive at any Grand Prix. )

I’m still very cautious when outdoors due to the ongoing symptoms of Labyrinthitis so my speed is down. I have to concentrate hugely and the first 30 minutes of any ride is the most challenging. Turning my head is more difficult as you might imagine so I am very careful at junctions. Sunday’s ride of a hilly 40 miles was not great after I’d had a really good week overall. It was pretty cold and still windy and I nearly gave up. Whether it was the weather, but we were out to a dinner party until quite late so not as much sleep as normal? I hardly ever drink but had a small Peroni and a small glass of wine - some people say they are affected by alcohol so I’m not sure if this might have contributed even though a small amount. I wouldn’t go out if not safe. Today and yesterday have been better so may head out later tomorrow afternoon.

Hope it’s been a good start to the week and feeling ok.

BW.

daniel_b

Hey @Munsford0,

I have a recollection of you starting that job at the school, but don't recall all that went before it.

Thankyou for sharing your story in detail, that's an incredible and fantastic turn around from where you were, to where you ended up.

It sounds like you are basically in your absolute ideal situation currently, I'm guessing you must look back and view your previous situation as an entirely different life, in more ways that one - so pleased it has worked out THAT well for you.

Great news you are off meds completely as well, and I won't rule them out, but I'm going to give other things a try first, and see how things go - they will be there if required.

I would agree the whole mortgage / paying the bills thing is probably the biggest pressure, especially as I am now the bread winner and have been for maybe 4 years, where as previously it was more even income wise, and she did earn more at one point.

The fact is that if suddenly was not earning we would not be able to meet the bills for that long, where as if she was to be not earning, we could make things work for much longer, indefinitely, on my salary alone.

My company is in the midst of a merger currently, so there may be redundancies next year, although probably unlikely.

Interesting you have had the saddle discomfort thing to, I'd never had it in the last 15 years, but then probably never had 3 months off the bike.

I've lowered the saddle on my turbo bike by a few mm, and have decided to take things very steadily and cautiously, so did a 30 minute easy turbo session yesterday morning, and had no ill effects, so will repeat that every 2 days (Slightly different sessions) and if there is no ill effects after 2 weeks, will probably increase the duration to 45 minutes or maybe even an hour.

Sounds like my approach will not be dissimilar to your own, weather is cr@p here currently, so not much motivation to go out in the real world sadly.

Hi @molteni_man,

It was a very slow 50 miles, but yes I suppose it is still an achievement, even if I probably ate more calories than I burnt!

I also generally use Fizik saddles, the Arione, Arione 00 and something similar, and also use some Syncros saddles that are pretty similar in profile, I seem to like flat saddles rather than curved ones.

As above, I have dropped my saddle a few mm, and cautiously getting back into it again, so will see how that goes - I've definitely felt more positive and a desire to get on the bike which I take as positive.

The bl00d test was pretty bad, in that I'm not a fan of needles or blood, well other than it being in my body, and I'd also not drunk enough, so it was a bit of a struggle for the nurse woman to get it out, so fairly traumatic in that sense, but we got there eventually.

The results are with my docs but he has not had a chance to look at them yet, so might get some answers (if there are any to be had) tomorrow or more likely Monday I reckon.

That's frustrating about the GP, and I guess if you are not living somewhere around the actual circuit and up high, you've got no chance.

I've heard Spa (My favourite track ever) can be quite affordable, some people saying the cost of travel, and the tickets is less than going to Silverstone - that was years ago though, so may not be the case now.

I'm not a big drinker, so like you drink little before riding, especially if it is distance or I am hoping t make progress. Some really fast people I know can down two bottles of wine the night before, and then ride seemingly with no ill effects the next day, genetics I guess.

The week has been going ok to be fair thanks for asking, work has been pretty good, as was last week thinking about it, and with the exception of the traumatic blood test (Although that's still me doing something positive so still a good thing) it's been pretty ok, shame the weather is so rubbish, I'd really like to go out on a ride or for a walk, but it's either really cold windy and grey, or raining.

Also just ordered some larger cycling kit, so hoping that will motivate me to get on the bike more too.

mr.b-campag

On the blood test you should be able to see your results via the NHS app, though you might have to ask your GP surgery for the appropriate permission. Obv. it's good to hear your docs' interpretation of the results but I think it's useful to have them and can be informative if you look into it more widely, as well as being useful to see changes over time (noting you're probably not that inclined to do these regularly! Can't say I'm a big fan of them either...)

daniel_b

https://forum.bikeradar.com/discussion/comment/21063301#Comment_21063301

Ah I didn't realise that, that could be useful, but I'm not setup for it I am sure. I rang again this morning (As requested) to be told he still hasn't had a chance to review the results - they've put a note on to remind him, and advised me they would contact me next week if anything was worthy of discussion.

Definitely the polar opposite of a fan, although if I have to do it again, I'll drink pints of water beforehand to try and get it over with asap!

As it was I declined to view any of the goings on at all, and stared intently at a picture of kittens up on the wall, presumably there for that exact purpose 🤣

P.S sorry to read of your RP experience, sounds like it could have been pretty grim, glad they cleared off.