What's your opinion about electric car?

13

Comments

  • katani
    katani Posts: 133
    edited September 2023
    Pross said:

    In the UK I would say they are still certainly good value if you have a company car option or if your company does a salary sacrifice scheme. Most people I know who have company cars are switching to electric even though they are more likely to be people for whom range is an issue.

    Often they are being forced into getting an EV, or a hybrid, for a company car because many companies have now ruled out ICE cars from their policies completely. Unless you go for a cash option and get whatever suits you.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435
    katani said:

    Pross said:

    In the UK I would say they are still certainly good value if you have a company car option or if your company does a salary sacrifice scheme. Most people I know who have company cars are switching to electric even though they are more likely to be people for whom range is an issue.

    They are being forced into getting an EV, or a hybrid, for a company car because many companies have now ruled out ICE cars from their policies completely. Unless you go for a cash option and get your own car.
    Which I guess is what the BIK rules were aiming for and also helps companies with their SHEQ / greenwashing policies. I also assume it means there will become a much larger second hand market over the next few years with, in my experience, company fleet policies generally being on a cycle of 3 years or less.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,595
    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    It's illustrating the massive expansion of Chinese production from outside top 15 to first place in 3 years.

    Am I the only one who can see the words?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry said:

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    It's illustrating the massive expansion of Chinese production from outside top 15 to first place in 3 years.

    Am I the only one who can see the words?
    No you aren't. It's pretty clear to me.
  • rjsterry said:

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    It's illustrating the massive expansion of Chinese production from outside top 15 to first place in 3 years.

    Am I the only one who can see the words?
    What's missing, I think, are the figures to demonstrate how much things have changed from 2020. Maybe it's my PC / Twitter settings, but all I can see ins the 2020 graphic. On which note, the size of the UK car export operations was a surprise.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    Yeah think it’s really hard to underestimate how quickly china has come online and how hard German and Japanese cars are falling
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435
    rjsterry said:

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    It's illustrating the massive expansion of Chinese production from outside top 15 to first place in 3 years.

    Am I the only one who can see the words?
    All I get is the 2020 graphic. Maybe it is because I'm not on Twitter or whatever stupid name it has this week. It takes me to the Twitter page and says click on country for more information but nothing happens when I click.

    Edit - sounds like W&G gets the same.
  • katani
    katani Posts: 133
    I went for an EV 3 years ago on a company car scheme as it seemed the cheapest option, BIK was 0%, vs 25% on an ICE car and 6% on a hybrid. This was before the company removed ICE cars from the scheme and despite everyone around telling me it wasn't a wise idea, but they were talking out of their arses having never owned an EV themselves. We also have got free charging points at every office location and another one by a shopping centre which I live right next to, which at that time was hardly used at all and with no stay time restrictions either.
    So having those in place, I calculated money saved on not having to buy diesel will amount to some £2k per year which I planned to spend on maintaining my cycling and running habit through C2W, buying spares, running shoes etc. It would have actually been much more after the fuel price hike.
    I did have fears about the limited range and, at the time, complete lack of public charging points, but it has actually been a good thing after all as it has made me think carefully which journeys I do really need to make by car (or make at all to begin with) and which I can make of foot or on a bicycle, or on a train, and it turned out more often than not I didn't need the car.
    Lots of the journeys I was making by car in the past were unnecessary and daft. Like driving 5 hours return to run an hour long fell race, which I now can't do because the car can't go that far on a single charge, so I have to choose races closer to where I live.
    I wonder how being in a similar situation would make most motoring people realise how many pointless unnecessary car journeys they make.
  • Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    You can see the same as me then, and it seems perfectly clear.

    China in 2020 had 1.57% as per the graphic, and now the story in the FT tweet is that China is going to become the largest exporter. That's a pretty big shift in only 3 years.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,595
    Pross said:

    rjsterry said:

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    It's illustrating the massive expansion of Chinese production from outside top 15 to first place in 3 years.

    Am I the only one who can see the words?
    All I get is the 2020 graphic. Maybe it is because I'm not on Twitter or whatever stupid name it has this week. It takes me to the Twitter page and says click on country for more information but nothing happens when I click.

    Edit - sounds like W&G gets the same.
    The comment above the graphic mentions that they're about to take first place and look where they were just three years ago. Granted, I'm taking that at face value.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    You can see the same as me then, and it seems perfectly clear.

    China in 2020 had 1.57% as per the graphic, and now the story in the FT tweet is that China is going to become the largest exporter. That's a pretty big shift in only 3 years.
    OK, I was reading those smaller bits in each colour block as being the market for the export country which was the largest number in the block but can see now it is splitting by continent. The bit that confused me the most though was the text saying China to overtake Japan into top spot whereas the graphic was showing Germany at the top. I hadn't picked up that the one set of data was being displayed graphically whilst the 2023 stuff was in a separate link. I still think the graphic is a poor way of displaying the information, what's wrong with a pie chart?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    You can see the same as me then, and it seems perfectly clear.

    China in 2020 had 1.57% as per the graphic, and now the story in the FT tweet is that China is going to become the largest exporter. That's a pretty big shift in only 3 years.
    I'm puzzled how China has overtaken Japan when Germany was the clear leader in 2020. What's happened to Germany?
  • Pross said:

    I still think the graphic is a poor way of displaying the information, what's wrong with a pie chart?

    My general rule is that if I'm trying to make a numerical point, I will not leave it as "an exercise for the reader" to piece everything together. In this case, I would have presented 2020 data, then 2023 data in the same format, with the summary of key points up front and at the end.

    If I'm trying to prove a theory to myself then I'll happily go digging for as a long as it takes.

  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,201
    edited September 2023

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    You can see the same as me then, and it seems perfectly clear.

    China in 2020 had 1.57% as per the graphic, and now the story in the FT tweet is that China is going to become the largest exporter. That's a pretty big shift in only 3 years.
    I'm puzzled how China has overtaken Japan when Germany was the clear leader in 2020. What's happened to Germany?
    I think I've worked it out.

    The FT article is about numbers of vehicles, and has this graph:



    The other graphic is about value of cars, so Germany is higher due to the expensive wankpanzers it builds.

    Still a really big shift.
  • Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    You can see the same as me then, and it seems perfectly clear.

    China in 2020 had 1.57% as per the graphic, and now the story in the FT tweet is that China is going to become the largest exporter. That's a pretty big shift in only 3 years.
    I'm puzzled how China has overtaken Japan when Germany was the clear leader in 2020. What's happened to Germany?
    I think I've worked it out.

    The FT article is about numbers of vehicles, and has this graph:



    The other graphic is about value of cars, so Germany is higher due to the expensive wankpanzers it builds.

    Still a really big shift.
    To make one of CS's favourite points, there's some dodgy y-axis work going on there!

  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    You can see the same as me then, and it seems perfectly clear.

    China in 2020 had 1.57% as per the graphic, and now the story in the FT tweet is that China is going to become the largest exporter. That's a pretty big shift in only 3 years.
    I'm puzzled how China has overtaken Japan when Germany was the clear leader in 2020. What's happened to Germany?
    I think I've worked it out.

    The FT article is about numbers of vehicles, and has this graph:



    The other graphic is about value of cars, so Germany is higher due to the expensive wankpanzers it builds.

    Still a really big shift.
    So the guy who did the Tweet was comparing apples with oranges and leaving people to work it all out for themselves?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    You can see the same as me then, and it seems perfectly clear.

    China in 2020 had 1.57% as per the graphic, and now the story in the FT tweet is that China is going to become the largest exporter. That's a pretty big shift in only 3 years.
    I'm puzzled how China has overtaken Japan when Germany was the clear leader in 2020. What's happened to Germany?
    I think I've worked it out.

    The FT article is about numbers of vehicles, and has this graph:



    The other graphic is about value of cars, so Germany is higher due to the expensive wankpanzers it builds.

    Still a really big shift.
    Thanks. If they sorted out the y-axis, the FT graph would be ok.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435
    The article itself seems to be suggesting that one of the reasons for the upsurge is that China are producing too many cars for the domestic market. It also seems to include all cars made in China even if they are for a foreign owned company like Tesla (if I skim read it correctly) so could it also be reflective of more production being moved there?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,595

    Pross said:

    I still think the graphic is a poor way of displaying the information, what's wrong with a pie chart?

    My general rule is that if I'm trying to make a numerical point, I will not leave it as "an exercise for the reader" to piece everything together. In this case, I would have presented 2020 data, then 2023 data in the same format, with the summary of key points up front and at the end.

    If I'm trying to prove a theory to myself then I'll happily go digging for as a long as it takes.

    First point:
    FT publishes article noting that China is about to become leading exporter of cars.
    Second point:
    Bloke on Twitter digs out chart from 2020 to emphasise how quickly that change has happened.

    Point two doesn't require a second chart as that has already been established by the FT article to which bloke on Twitter is responding.

    RC then reposts on here and everyone claims they can't understand.

    🤷🏻‍♂️
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,595

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    You can see the same as me then, and it seems perfectly clear.

    China in 2020 had 1.57% as per the graphic, and now the story in the FT tweet is that China is going to become the largest exporter. That's a pretty big shift in only 3 years.
    I'm puzzled how China has overtaken Japan when Germany was the clear leader in 2020. What's happened to Germany?
    I think I've worked it out.

    The FT article is about numbers of vehicles, and has this graph:



    The other graphic is about value of cars, so Germany is higher due to the expensive wankpanzers it builds.

    Still a really big shift.
    Thanks. If they sorted out the y-axis, the FT graph would be ok.
    Not sure a bunch of empty space would add information.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435
    rjsterry said:

    Pross said:

    I still think the graphic is a poor way of displaying the information, what's wrong with a pie chart?

    My general rule is that if I'm trying to make a numerical point, I will not leave it as "an exercise for the reader" to piece everything together. In this case, I would have presented 2020 data, then 2023 data in the same format, with the summary of key points up front and at the end.

    If I'm trying to prove a theory to myself then I'll happily go digging for as a long as it takes.

    First point:
    FT publishes article noting that China is about to become leading exporter of cars.
    Second point:
    Bloke on Twitter digs out chart from 2020 to emphasise how quickly that change has happened.

    Point two doesn't require a second chart as that has already been established by the FT article to which bloke on Twitter is responding.

    RC then reposts on here and everyone claims they can't understand.

    🤷🏻‍♂️
    In this instance it didn't have anything to do with who posted it, I simply didn't understand the graphic (and as you have pointed out the Twitter guy has used a different measure to what the FT article. The FT article was fine, the Tweet was a bit pointless once you dig into it.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,552
    edited September 2023
    rjsterry said:

    Pross said:

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    Agreed, I'm reading that as Germany being the largest exporter in 2020 with Japan second and China nowhere to be seen yet the text says China is going to leapfrog Japan into top spot. I assume the other countries within each colour block shows where their export markets are but I'm probably wrong. It seems a really poor way to present the data.
    You can see the same as me then, and it seems perfectly clear.

    China in 2020 had 1.57% as per the graphic, and now the story in the FT tweet is that China is going to become the largest exporter. That's a pretty big shift in only 3 years.
    I'm puzzled how China has overtaken Japan when Germany was the clear leader in 2020. What's happened to Germany?
    I think I've worked it out.

    The FT article is about numbers of vehicles, and has this graph:



    The other graphic is about value of cars, so Germany is higher due to the expensive wankpanzers it builds.

    Still a really big shift.
    Thanks. If they sorted out the y-axis, the FT graph would be ok.
    Not sure a bunch of empty space would add information.
    It would show that China hasn't increased from zero. There is a reason it is considered poor form.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    Very on brand today, lads.
  • rjsterry said:

    Pross said:

    I still think the graphic is a poor way of displaying the information, what's wrong with a pie chart?

    My general rule is that if I'm trying to make a numerical point, I will not leave it as "an exercise for the reader" to piece everything together. In this case, I would have presented 2020 data, then 2023 data in the same format, with the summary of key points up front and at the end.

    If I'm trying to prove a theory to myself then I'll happily go digging for as a long as it takes.

    First point:
    FT publishes article noting that China is about to become leading exporter of cars.
    Second point:
    Bloke on Twitter digs out chart from 2020 to emphasise how quickly that change has happened.

    Point two doesn't require a second chart as that has already been established by the FT article to which bloke on Twitter is responding.

    RC then reposts on here and everyone claims they can't understand.

    🤷🏻‍♂️
    Don't recall saying I didn't understand. Just that I CBA to go digging in links to help someone make their point. I don't subscribe to the FT so can't read their articles. All I could see was the 2020 chart and a headline.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,060
    edited September 2023

    Very on brand today, lads.

    I'm sure we are, but what does this mean?
  • Very on brand today, lads.

    I'm sure we are, but what does this mean?
    Moaning about the graphics instead of talking about the data.
  • Am struggling to read the small text - what's wrong woth the y axis?
  • Am struggling to read the small text - what's wrong woth the y axis?

    Starts at 100k and goes up to 400k. Should start at zero. Presentation used makes changes over time look relatively more significant.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517

    Very on brand today, lads.

    I'm sure we are, but what does this mean?
    So the interesting topic is that China has come from being a tiny player to world leader in cars in 3 years, but the forum is more interested in the quality of the tweet and the chart.