What's your opinion about electric car?

24

Comments

  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,383
    edited September 2023

    Are EVs second hand better value than petrol then? How come?

    They depreciate more slowly, presumably because ICE are being regulated out
    https://thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-12160659/Used-electric-cars-nosedived-value-2023.html

    Also the appeal of many ICE cars, combined with the lack of supply after new ICE car sales are banned mean that ICE prices will remain strong and some may even appreciate.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pep.fermi said:

    I own a cheap old and crappy Peugeot 207sw, petrol, market value today perhaps 2500-3000.
    And I drive only ca 3000 km/yr. So switching to EV makes no sense for me, neither for environment nor for the costs. Still, I'm intrigued by EVs.

    What's your opinion on EVs?

    Don't forget as well EV's are getting kicked in the b0ll0cks at the moment on the used market so there are some good deals to be had. A couple of years old, 10,000miles...
    I would love this to be the case but I looked at buying my daughter an EV, something like a Renault Zoe or a Leaf, so I could nick it when I need to go in the ULEZ (basically so I can take my bike to Hog Hill).

    And sadly my conclusion was they are not being kicked in the b***** anywhere near enough, anything half acceptable was close to 10k (which is way too much for a first car for anyone).

    If anyone can tell me I'm wrong and they can be much cheaper I am all ears...

    Hang on though, how much does one cost new, at what's the price a couple of years old with around 10,000 miles on it? And 10k is nothing. Look up the longevity of EV battery packs, they've been around long enough. It's much better than you'd expect in terms of degredation.
    Curious to know the wear on the other parts, given the additional weight (I think?)
    Well, less wear on brakes regen breaking and with the brushless motor as long as it's manufactured well, it's just a case of bearing. Now compare that to the complications of a dinosaur squeezings vehicle?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435
    oxoman said:

    Re the Hydrogen debate, several mainstream heavy plant equipment manufacturers are actively pushing Hydrogen as a replacement for diesel as battery power isn't an option. Hydrogen buses are currently being run and several delivery vans have been retrofitted to prove it can and does work.

    I don't think any disputes it works, isn't the issue more the energy it takes to produce it and that basically being worse than burning fossil fuel in the vehicle?
  • Some of the smaller EV's aren't too bad in terms of weight because they're more efficient the battery packs don't have to be as big. That's why in my advanced superior opinion at the current states of thing it suits shortish trips with a driveway with a wall charger.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,196
    edited September 2023
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XflP9D53slY Don't get me wrong I'd still love a V10 though.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 2,894

    Jezyboy said:

    lesfirth said:

    oxoman said:

    . I personally think hydrogen may be the best option. Time will tell.

    There is little prospect of useable quantities of green hydrogen being available for decades and dont believe the blue hydrogen con being pushed by petrochemical companies.

    I work in the Gas Turbine industry. Every current conference seems to have the theme that burning hydrogen is basically an easily solved problem. Getting the hydrogen to the Gas Turbine...not so much.

    I can see hydrogen being used in some specialized applications. But EVs seem to actually work quite well.
    If by specialised you mean shipping or renewable energy storage, then yes.

    Is not energy dense enough for aviation.
    Non standard as in off highway, or heavy goods vehicles.

    These aren't aviation gas turbines.
  • Some of the smaller EV's aren't too bad in terms of weight because they're more efficient the battery packs don't have to be as big. That's why in my advanced superior opinion at the current states of thing it suits shortish trips with a driveway with a wall charger.

    Regrettably they are still too expensive. I'm thinking that little Honda or the current electric mini. Range about 100-150 I think.

    The market is relatively small though, limited to people who drive around town. Which is what the other thread is all about avoiding.

    Besides, who would be comfortable setting off for a 90 min trip not entirely sure if they will get there without having to atop for 20 mins?
  • oxoman said:

    Try asking the owner of the Tesla that went flat and blocked major A road down south for about 8 hrs or so. Apparently they couldn't push or drag it as the brakes / motor wouldn't release.

    ICE cars never break down.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,383

    oxoman said:

    Try asking the owner of the Tesla that went flat and blocked major A road down south for about 8 hrs or so. Apparently they couldn't push or drag it as the brakes / motor wouldn't release.

    ICE cars never break down.
    But they can usually be pushed out of the way so that they're not blocking the road.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,383
    oxoman said:

    oxoman said:

    Try asking the owner of the Tesla that went flat and blocked major A road down south for about 8 hrs or so. Apparently they couldn't push or drag it as the brakes / motor wouldn't release.

    ICE cars never break down.
    At least you can push them out the way. 🤭
    Beat me to it Oxo...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,663
    I know a guy, worked for a big chemicals (now majoring their stance on sustainability) research company, he was 30+ years on hydrogen fuel cell R&D projects UK, Europe, N America. He's retired now. Are the hydrogen fuels any nearer mainstream commerciality?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    orraloon said:

    I know a guy, worked for a big chemicals (now majoring their stance on sustainability) research company, he was 30+ years on hydrogen fuel cell R&D projects UK, Europe, N America. He's retired now. Are the hydrogen fuels any nearer mainstream commerciality?

    The Japanese car industry hopes so. They’ve bet the house on it.

    (Remember when the Toyota was *the* “green car”??)
  • orraloon said:

    I know a guy, worked for a big chemicals (now majoring their stance on sustainability) research company, he was 30+ years on hydrogen fuel cell R&D projects UK, Europe, N America. He's retired now. Are the hydrogen fuels any nearer mainstream commerciality?

    The Japanese car industry hopes so. They’ve bet the house on it.

    (Remember when the Toyota was *the* “green car”??)
    Toyota is backing a few horses. Including not missing out on the last few decades of ICUs that will be sold in most of the world.

    Some of that fuel cell technology will find its way to non-automotive applications, and some is transferable to batteries.

    It is either very shrewd, or they will be too late to the EV party.
  • super_davo
    super_davo Posts: 1,126

    pep.fermi said:

    I own a cheap old and crappy Peugeot 207sw, petrol, market value today perhaps 2500-3000.
    And I drive only ca 3000 km/yr. So switching to EV makes no sense for me, neither for environment nor for the costs. Still, I'm intrigued by EVs.

    What's your opinion on EVs?

    Don't forget as well EV's are getting kicked in the b0ll0cks at the moment on the used market so there are some good deals to be had. A couple of years old, 10,000miles...
    I would love this to be the case but I looked at buying my daughter an EV, something like a Renault Zoe or a Leaf, so I could nick it when I need to go in the ULEZ (basically so I can take my bike to Hog Hill).

    And sadly my conclusion was they are not being kicked in the b***** anywhere near enough, anything half acceptable was close to 10k (which is way too much for a first car for anyone).

    If anyone can tell me I'm wrong and they can be much cheaper I am all ears...

    Hang on though, how much does one cost new, at what's the price a couple of years old with around 10,000 miles on it? And 10k is nothing. Look up the longevity of EV battery packs, they've been around long enough. It's much better than you'd expect in terms of degredation.
    Curious to know the wear on the other parts, given the additional weight (I think?)
    Well, less wear on brakes regen breaking and with the brushless motor as long as it's manufactured well, it's just a case of bearing. Now compare that to the complications of a dinosaur squeezings vehicle?
    I am with you on this. Electric cars are much simpler mechanically than ICE. No complex transmission, no clutch, even though heavier less load on brakes due to regen. Service process way simpler. And horror stories on battery degradation has been way overplayed - I've seen the similar stats to the ones you've quoted.

    I can't see myself buying another ICE car. If I buy a car to keep for 5-10 years, by the end of that time driving ICE will feel like riding a steel frame with downtube shifters in a world of carbon aero bikes with Di2. I'll keep my current car until it dies, but I just can't see any electric cars in a viable price range for my daughter ATM.
  • I'm with SuperDavo. Just very glad you didn't say disc brakes in your bike analogy!
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,196
    edited September 2023
    Yep, I'm with Focuszing on this. He makes the mostist sense out of all the cake eaters who frequent the stop for cake. Yeah, like by a big margin n'all.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,306

    Pross said:

    I’m surprised there hasn’t been a previous thread discussing this sort of thing.


    I think @pinno suggested a new thread would be a good move. Though I might be misremembering...
    There's no diverting it now.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,289

    pep.fermi said:

    I own a cheap old and crappy Peugeot 207sw, petrol, market value today perhaps 2500-3000.
    And I drive only ca 3000 km/yr. So switching to EV makes no sense for me, neither for environment nor for the costs. Still, I'm intrigued by EVs.

    What's your opinion on EVs?

    Don't forget as well EV's are getting kicked in the b0ll0cks at the moment on the used market so there are some good deals to be had. A couple of years old, 10,000miles...
    I would love this to be the case but I looked at buying my daughter an EV, something like a Renault Zoe or a Leaf, so I could nick it when I need to go in the ULEZ (basically so I can take my bike to Hog Hill).

    And sadly my conclusion was they are not being kicked in the b***** anywhere near enough, anything half acceptable was close to 10k (which is way too much for a first car for anyone).

    If anyone can tell me I'm wrong and they can be much cheaper I am all ears...

    Hang on though, how much does one cost new, at what's the price a couple of years old with around 10,000 miles on it? And 10k is nothing. Look up the longevity of EV battery packs, they've been around long enough. It's much better than you'd expect in terms of degredation.
    Curious to know the wear on the other parts, given the additional weight (I think?)
    Well, less wear on brakes regen breaking and with the brushless motor as long as it's manufactured well, it's just a case of bearing. Now compare that to the complications of a dinosaur squeezings vehicle?
    I am with you on this. Electric cars are much simpler mechanically than ICE. No complex transmission, no clutch, even though heavier less load on brakes due to regen. Service process way simpler. And horror stories on battery degradation has been way overplayed - I've seen the similar stats to the ones you've quoted.
    Hybrids are the worst of both worlds, poor range on electric only, ICE that needs servicing and overcomplicated systems trying to cope with both powertrains. I'm sure they're fine when new and under warranty, don't think I'd want an old one.
  • oxoman said:

    orraloon said:

    I know a guy, worked for a big chemicals (now majoring their stance on sustainability) research company, he was 30+ years on hydrogen fuel cell R&D projects UK, Europe, N America. He's retired now. Are the hydrogen fuels any nearer mainstream commerciality?

    The Japanese car industry hopes so. They’ve bet the house on it.

    (Remember when the Toyota was *the* “green car”??)
    JCB and several other big plant manufacturers hope so to. I've used battery powered plant and its only good for 8 hrs work then needs 10 plus to charge up and they're only small pieces of plant.
    Yep, hydrogen is the future for Construction. JCB have gone all in.

    The charger for an electric excavator was the size of a 20’ container. Crazy.

    I have an electric car for BIK reasons. I love it but fully accept it is not for everyone. The network simply isn’t good enough. If everyone moved to EV the grid would collapse.

    I installed solar panels at work so is a no brainer really but not for everyone.

    Hybrids are the future for the next 10 years as the technology evolves
  • ...even though heavier less load on brakes due to regen.

    I'm not disputing this, and have a vague idea how this may be the case based on my 1986 A-Level Physics (to be kept secret in case it's embarrassingly incorrect!) but can you explain how this works in practice, please? Thanks!

  • ...even though heavier less load on brakes due to regen.

    I'm not disputing this, and have a vague idea how this may be the case based on my 1986 A-Level Physics (to be kept secret in case it's embarrassingly incorrect!) but can you explain how this works in practice, please? Thanks!

    Car becomes a dynamo.

  • ...even though heavier less load on brakes due to regen.

    I'm not disputing this, and have a vague idea how this may be the case based on my 1986 A-Level Physics (to be kept secret in case it's embarrassingly incorrect!) but can you explain how this works in practice, please? Thanks!

    Car becomes a dynamo.

    Thanks, but could you elaborate a little, please? 1986 was a looooooong time ago!

    Presumably there are forces working to decelerate the car that are not coming from a traditional braking system.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,517
    oxoman said:

    The one thing that is frightening is and will be the reliance on China for the raw components for EV's whether that's for the electronics or the batteries. Personally I'd be looking for more self reliance without being held to ransom by China, I mean look what covid caused.

    This was one of my arguments for the limited shelf life of EVs over on the other thread..

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,594

    ...even though heavier less load on brakes due to regen.

    I'm not disputing this, and have a vague idea how this may be the case based on my 1986 A-Level Physics (to be kept secret in case it's embarrassingly incorrect!) but can you explain how this works in practice, please? Thanks!

    Car becomes a dynamo.

    Thanks, but could you elaborate a little, please? 1986 was a looooooong time ago!

    Presumably there are forces working to decelerate the car that are not coming from a traditional braking system.
    https://www.honda.co.uk/engineroom/cars/what-is-regenerative-braking-and-how-does-it-work/#:~:text=Regenerative braking is a simple,then returned to the battery.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
  • ...even though heavier less load on brakes due to regen.

    I'm not disputing this, and have a vague idea how this may be the case based on my 1986 A-Level Physics (to be kept secret in case it's embarrassingly incorrect!) but can you explain how this works in practice, please? Thanks!

    Car becomes a dynamo.

    Thanks, but could you elaborate a little, please? 1986 was a looooooong time ago!

    Presumably there are forces working to decelerate the car that are not coming from a traditional braking system.
    Basically, yes. My idiotic physics memory is thus:

    Rotate a magnet inside a coil of wires, and it generates electricity (regen)

    That electricity created then tries to rotate the magnet in the opposite direction, creating a braking force.

    So long as the force which pushes the magnet > electricity trying to push it the other way, then the net effect is regeneration.

    I think in very basic theory that is correct, whereas the reality is probably much more complicated to make it work day-to-day.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 7,196
    edited September 2023

    oxoman said:

    The one thing that is frightening is and will be the reliance on China for the raw components for EV's whether that's for the electronics or the batteries. Personally I'd be looking for more self reliance without being held to ransom by China, I mean look what covid caused.

    This was one of my arguments for the limited shelf life of EVs over on the other thread..

    Why limited shelf life, In terms of materials to make them or how long the cars will remain useable (battery degredation)?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,594
    edited September 2023

    I once read that you should only use a graphic if it helps explain your point.
    The graphic shows where China was 3 years ago (bottom centre of the grid). This illustrates the point is that they're now about to leapfrog to first place.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • ...even though heavier less load on brakes due to regen.

    I'm not disputing this, and have a vague idea how this may be the case based on my 1986 A-Level Physics (to be kept secret in case it's embarrassingly incorrect!) but can you explain how this works in practice, please? Thanks!

    Car becomes a dynamo.

    Thanks, but could you elaborate a little, please? 1986 was a looooooong time ago!

    Presumably there are forces working to decelerate the car that are not coming from a traditional braking system.
    Basically, yes. My idiotic physics memory is thus:

    Rotate a magnet inside a coil of wires, and it generates electricity (regen)

    That electricity created then tries to rotate the magnet in the opposite direction, creating a braking force.

    So long as the force which pushes the magnet > electricity trying to push it the other way, then the net effect is regeneration.

    I think in very basic theory that is correct, whereas the reality is probably much more complicated to make it work day-to-day.
    Thanks. That's a more useful version of conservation / transformation of energy via braking systems than warming your hands on your wheel rims after a long descent on a cold day. Obvs not quite so useful when using disk brakes unless you need branding / cauterising!