End of Tour team grades

13

Comments

  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,787
    r0bh said:

    On Watts Occurring G said that he can gain 2.5kg from fluid retention if a rest day is taken too easy (IIRC) so maybe something like that? Basically the body going into shock mode and hanging on to all the resources it can get

    Maybe that's where those big beers come in to play. Diuretic innit.
  • andytee87
    andytee87 Posts: 414
    r0bh said:

    On Watts Occurring G said that he can gain 2.5kg from fluid retention if a rest day is taken too easy (IIRC) so maybe something like that? Basically the body going into shock mode and hanging on to all the resources it can get

    Yep, guess that's what Sean K refers to as having "big legs".
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 27,760
    Reminds me of that guy on here who used to carry half a stone of water on all his rides.
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,390
    DeVlaeminck said:

    andyp said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    They chose to send their A team to the Giro.

    Re Pidcock no his prep doesn't look like a GC prep - but Ineos sent him to ride GC. Yes maybe his prep was poor - that's a bit of a dog ate my homework excuse - they've had 12 months since he won on the Alpe so if he's seen as a possible GC prospect get the prep right - or don't send him to ride GC.

    They sent him to ride GC to see how he did, i.e. as an experiment, and not with any expectations that he would guarantee them a podium place. Rod Ellingworth was clear about this on a number of occasions, it was very definitely a learning exercise for him (and Rodriguez).

    I'm no defender of Ineos, or Pidcock, but I think they are very aware that this is a time of transition for them and they came to the Tour with lower expectations than before. I'd say two stage wins and 5th on GC is pretty good considering.
    Sure but they are a big budget team with an unparalleled record in grand tours in the post Armstrong era.

    They may have expected an average Tour but that is what they got - so a C is what they deserve.
    There’s two discussions re Pidcock here.

    Firstly, did Ineos sent a serious contender to the Tout? Answer is clearly “No” for which the management deserve whatever stick they get from owners.

    Secondly, is there enough to suggest Pidcock could contend seriously in the Tour? Likely answer is “No” based on his likely physiology deduced from his racing to date, and also simply on the law of averages. (There are far more potential tour winners than ever get remotely close.) But folk laughed at Wiggins as a potential Tour winner and Thomas wasn’t the most likely candidate either.

    Given what Pidcock has achieved to date - Olympic champ, world champ and Alpe D’Huez winner - he can potentially afford to speculate a bit to see what could be achieved in the Tour. He doesn’t need to prove himself to anyone given his trophy cabinet.

  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    Whhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,031
    joeyhalloran said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    They chose to send their A team to the Giro.

    Re Pidcock no his prep doesn't look like a GC prep - but Ineos sent him to ride GC. Yes maybe his prep was poor - that's a bit of a dog ate my homework excuse - they've had 12 months since he won on the Alpe so if he's seen as a possible GC prospect get the prep right - or don't send him to ride GC.

    I don't think they did send Pidcock "to ride GC", they just sent him to learn. This is the first time he has tried to be consistent across 3 weeks. Both Ineos and TP are finding out where his limits are, which is fine.

    Also, this is the quote from Him:
    “This year I learned. I've come away with nothing but I've come away with everything. I have a much better understanding of what it takes to win and succeed in this race in the GC. I think that is more valuable than winning a stage.”

    “I think the stage to Morzine, when it went wrong, I dug deep to the finish. It shocked my body a bit, I've been almost three kilos heavier than race weight since then and it’s hard to keep being positive when it’s an uphill battle.”
    When I say they sent him to ride GC it's because he stated the plan was for him to ride for GC - to stay as high up on GC as possible. Yes I don't think they had expectations of top 3.

    He's 24 next week and it was his third grand tour - it doesn't seem unreasonable to start judging his prospects. Ineos may be doing the right thing holding him back - they know more about preparing grand tour riders than me so if the long game works I'll happily acknowledge their genius.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,646
    DSM are really dire aren’t they? I remember a story from Felix Gall basically saying he was so miserable on the team he wanted to give up cycling. Next season wins a Tour stage and is top 10 overall.
    _
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,448
    rick_chasey said:

    DSM are really dire aren’t they? I remember a story from Felix Gall basically saying he was so miserable on the team he wanted to give up cycling. Next season wins a Tour stage and is top 10 overall.

    They are very patchy, so when they do win, they tend to do so in bursts. Just seven wins this season though, so a pretty poor one for them so far. I'm not sure it's about the results too much for them, it seems to be more about the process of identifying talent and turning them into solid pros.

    I don't think it's any secret that they monitor athletes more than other teams, but it does seem to work for some riders, i.e. Degenkolb and Bardet seem happy there. But, as you say, Gall wasn't one and there's a growing list of riders who left the team because it wasn't the right environment for them.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,646
    I'm convinced they burned Dumoulin out too.

    I dunno, I think in cycling especially there is a real balance to be had between the individual and the team. It may be a team sport, but it's individuals who are counted.

    Degenkolb is such a sad story, I so felt for him in Roubaix this year. Really feel for the guy.
    _
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,031
    What's the deal with DSM monitoring athletes ? In the sense that they micro manage their lives or ... ?
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,448
    DeVlaeminck said:

    What's the deal with DSM monitoring athletes ? In the sense that they micro manage their lives or ... ?

    I think a lot of teams monitor their athletes, i.e. all training is logged in training peaks, food intake is entered into an app, etc. I don't know if DSM do much more than that, but for their development teams they want the riders to move to live in Sittard, near Maastricht in team owned accommodation, presumably to keep a closer eye on them.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,646
    DeVlaeminck said:

    What's the deal with DSM monitoring athletes ? In the sense that they micro manage their lives or ... ?

    Yeah, very strict reporting on what they're doing, eating, training etc
    _
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    rick_chasey said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    What's the deal with DSM monitoring athletes ? In the sense that they micro manage their lives or ... ?

    Yeah, very strict reporting on what they're doing, eating, training etc
    Yeah if it stresses people out your not deriving performance gains from it .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,535
    So where is the Team of the Tour section, @RichN95. ? Why has this traditional addendum to the grades been skipped? Must do better..... D
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,646
    mididoctors said:

    rick_chasey said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    What's the deal with DSM monitoring athletes ? In the sense that they micro manage their lives or ... ?

    Yeah, very strict reporting on what they're doing, eating, training etc
    Yeah if it stresses people out your not deriving performance gains from it .
    Yeah, would do my head in.

    Genuinely. I think for a lot of people trust is really enabling, and having to report every bowel movement doesn't scream "we trust you to arrive to the race in form".
    _
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,154
    rick_chasey said:

    mididoctors said:

    rick_chasey said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    What's the deal with DSM monitoring athletes ? In the sense that they micro manage their lives or ... ?

    Yeah, very strict reporting on what they're doing, eating, training etc
    Yeah if it stresses people out your not deriving performance gains from it .
    Yeah, would do my head in.

    Genuinely. I think for a lot of people trust is really enabling, and having to report every bowel movement doesn't scream "we trust you to arrive to the race in form".
    It's a fine balance. Sure, you can trust them to do what they need to do and simply sack them if the aren't performing to expectations but it is also good to be monitoring them closely as they may well be doing what they are being asked to do but some issue means it isn't working or there is some underlying issue stopping them performing at their best that could be sorted out by the team having data e.g. would Froome's talent have been spotted early in that environment?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    edited July 2023
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    So where is the Team of the Tour section, @RichN95. ? Why has this traditional addendum to the grades been skipped? Must do better..... D

    Off the top of my head:

    Vingegaard
    A.Yates
    Ciccone
    Philipsen
    Bilbao
    Castroviejo
    Kelderman
    Woods

    (You have to finish Wout fanboys. And tough on Kuss). Yates took his spot.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,154
    I would swap Kuss for Yates. Trying to work out how to get Campanaerts in there.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,455
    edited July 2023
    I'd swap Kuss for Yates and Gall for Castroviejo & Pedersen for Woods.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    m.r.m. said:

    I'd swap Kuss for Yates and Gall for Castroviejo & Pedersen for Woods.

    I think I'll swap Gall for Bilbao. Castroviejo is a different type. He excelled himself. Often the last domestiques outside the leading two teams. That he was 14th on GC speaks volumes.
    Woods had the best stage win for me.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,455
    I can see that.

    Pedersen was also really strong for the team and Ciccone outside of his stage win.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    Gall for woods
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,646
    RichN95. said:

    m.r.m. said:

    I'd swap Kuss for Yates and Gall for Castroviejo & Pedersen for Woods.

    I think I'll swap Gall for Bilbao. Castroviejo is a different type. He excelled himself. Often the last domestiques outside the leading two teams. That he was 14th on GC speaks volumes.
    Woods had the best stage win for me.
    No direspect to Woods, no-one can really do what he does but he is a one-trick pony.

    _
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    Kuss for ciccone .
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    It's actually quite hard .....
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    Soler or mijka for old castle
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    I had so little emotional investment in philipsen ..but he won 4 stages
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    mididoctors said:

    I had so little emotional investment in philipsen ..but he won 4 stages

    Unquestionably one of the most dominant tour sprint performances for a long while. He has every right to be compared to a young Cav or Kittel
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,790
    What do we think.of EF.?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,646
    edited July 2023
    mididoctors said:

    What do we think.of EF.?

    I never used to like them but they have really grown on me.

    I think they punch above their weight and I was disappointed they didn't get a win.

    I think they went about the polka dot the wrong way and it seems like they didn't have enough of a strategy going into the race and were reacting to things. So with Polka they went for the early doors exposure (fair enough) but then seemed to have decided after that to try to hang onto it. That's not the way to win it.

    Perhaps it was just a case of not having the legs to do that, but I feel that concentrating their efforts on a few key objectives would have worked better.

    (I should also add, I see EF Education, the company, *everywhere* here in Cambridge. They often are in the pink of the team, which does give me a smile).
    _

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