End of Tour team grades

Pross

andyp said:

Pross said:

dannbodge said:

I completely forgot Movistar were even in the tour this year.

Jorgensen had a couple of good stages and was really unlucky on Puy de Dome, blowing up in the final km and getting passed by the big 2 then Mohoric in the final metres.

Mike Woods and Pierre Latour?

Doh, getting my stages mixed up! Point remains though that Jorgensen was definitely visible although maybe there are others like me that struggle to think of him as a Movistar rider.

andyp

Pross said:

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Yeah, definitely harsh. He was quite often the last non-UAE or Jumbo rider left in the group and the best of the rest on a couple of mountain stages.

Agreed, for a Tour debutant, a stage win and fifth on GC is a great return.

I don't see how you can conclude Pidcock is never going to be a GC rider either, he had one very bad day but he improved on his GC position from last year and was active in the final week which suggests he has the endurance. He'd need to fully commit to it, but the potential is there.

Pross

andyp said:

Pross said:

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Yeah, definitely harsh. He was quite often the last non-UAE or Jumbo rider left in the group and the best of the rest on a couple of mountain stages.

Agreed, for a Tour debutant, a stage win and fifth on GC is a great return.

I don't see how you can conclude Pidcock is never going to be a GC rider either, he had one very bad day but he improved on his GC position from last year and was active in the final week which suggests he has the endurance. He'd need to fully commit to it, but the potential is there.

Pidcock looked a lot more comfortable in the medium mountains at the end. I think he still needs to prove himself in the high mountains (which sounds odd when he's won at Alpe d'Huez). I wonder if he had a touch of illness in the middle of the race though. I agree he needs to commit to it if he does have ambitions of being a GT contender. He's in danger of being Andy Murray in the era of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic though.

kingstongraham

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

If you're judging Cofidis in comparison how they've done in the past, you should do the same for Ineos.

Groupama very lucky to get C having left behind an in form sprinter for a charity pick and building the rest of the team around a 9th place finish.

An in form sprinter? You don't mean Arnaud Demare, surely? He's ridden 24 WT race days this season and his best result is a single second place.

He beat Jordi Meeus in sprints in that second place and his win a week earlier - in the two races just before the TDF which sounds like decent form. Last GT he raced he won the points jersey and three stages. He's the best rider they have.

According to the UCI rankings, he's the fifth best rider they have.

And that tells you what you need to know about uci ranking points.

That's a separate discussion. The point is that he's not justified a place in the Tour team this year based on his results. He can complain all he likes, but for a sprinter to go to the Tour, they have to be getting results.

He was more likely to win a stage than Pinot.

Pinot has three Tour stage wins to his name, Demare has two.

None of them were in 2023 though were they?

DeVlaeminck

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Did he ? Ok I must have forgotten. I'm still giving them a C as I don't think Ineos came into the sport for 5th and a couple of stages.

ddraver

wallace_and_gromit said:

davidof said:

Pidock is probably dissapointed following his breakout win in the mountains last year.

Maybe a discussion in its own right but Pidcock / INEOS need to decide whether or not to go "all in" as a Grand Tour GC contender. He rallied well in the final week after struggling on the Loze, which suggests he might have the requisite recovery powers. But he'll have to ditch the MTB stuff to train properly for GTs (his MTB and 'cross training are obviously pretty good!) one would think, which might not suit him.

No discussion. Finished.

Back to doing what you're good at Tom!

blazing_saddles

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Only because Vingegaard and Pogacar didn't see him.

kingstongraham

blazing_saddles said:

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Only because Vingegaard and Pogacar didn't see him.

Pogacar saw him in the TT.

RichN95.

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

If you're judging Cofidis in comparison how they've done in the past, you should do the same for Ineos.

Groupama very lucky to get C having left behind an in form sprinter for a charity pick and building the rest of the team around a 9th place finish.

An in form sprinter? You don't mean Arnaud Demare, surely? He's ridden 24 WT race days this season and his best result is a single second place.

He beat Jordi Meeus in sprints in that second place and his win a week earlier - in the two races just before the TDF which sounds like decent form. Last GT he raced he won the points jersey and three stages. He's the best rider they have.

According to the UCI rankings, he's the fifth best rider they have.

And that tells you what you need to know about uci ranking points.

That's a separate discussion. The point is that he's not justified a place in the Tour team this year based on his results. He can complain all he likes, but for a sprinter to go to the Tour, they have to be getting results.

He was more likely to win a stage than Pinot.

Pinot has three Tour stage wins to his name, Demare has two.

It's hard to win races if you're not selected. Demare has won 8 Giro stages and two points jerseys in the last five seasons.

blazing_saddles

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

andyp said:

kingstongraham said:

If you're judging Cofidis in comparison how they've done in the past, you should do the same for Ineos.

Groupama very lucky to get C having left behind an in form sprinter for a charity pick and building the rest of the team around a 9th place finish.

An in form sprinter? You don't mean Arnaud Demare, surely? He's ridden 24 WT race days this season and his best result is a single second place.

He beat Jordi Meeus in sprints in that second place and his win a week earlier - in the two races just before the TDF which sounds like decent form. Last GT he raced he won the points jersey and three stages. He's the best rider they have.

According to the UCI rankings, he's the fifth best rider they have.

And that tells you what you need to know about uci ranking points.

That's a separate discussion. The point is that he's not justified a place in the Tour team this year based on his results. He can complain all he likes, but for a sprinter to go to the Tour, they have to be getting results.

He was more likely to win a stage than Pinot.

Pinot has three Tour stage wins to his name, Demare has two.

This numbers game might mean something, but for the fact that Pinot has ridden 10 tours, while Demare has only ridden 5.

blazing_saddles

No_Ta_Doctor said:

mididoctors said:

Arkea way less visible than uno.x who I would give a D or even C repeatedly.got in the stage winning breaks even on big days johannessen was right in the action

Wanty are better than arkea too... D

Agree with this, Uno-X very harshly treated there - got a couple of top 3 stage places, animated breaks, were generally active and visible (no kit jokes please) all race. For a wildcard team in their first Tour they'll be pleased with their performance.

I am another one in the Uno-X hard done by, camp.
They hardly missed a break and had a couple of stage podiums.
Not bad for tour virgins.

DeVlaeminck

andyp said:

Pross said:

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Yeah, definitely harsh. He was quite often the last non-UAE or Jumbo rider left in the group and the best of the rest on a couple of mountain stages.

Agreed, for a Tour debutant, a stage win and fifth on GC is a great return.

I don't see how you can conclude Pidcock is never going to be a GC rider either, he had one very bad day but he improved on his GC position from last year and was active in the final week which suggests he has the endurance. He'd need to fully commit to it, but the potential is there.

I think if this was a test run to see how he could do on GC it's not been a success.

I'm not writing him off so maybe I was harsh but it's shown just how far he has to go. Yes he has to specialise if he has any chance but maybe people should be a bit harsher - seems to me he's being talked up behind what he's achieved where grand tours are concerned. If he was French we'd be laughing at the French talking up their next Tour hope.

No_Ta_Doctor

DeVlaeminck said:

andyp said:

Pross said:

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Yeah, definitely harsh. He was quite often the last non-UAE or Jumbo rider left in the group and the best of the rest on a couple of mountain stages.

Agreed, for a Tour debutant, a stage win and fifth on GC is a great return.

I don't see how you can conclude Pidcock is never going to be a GC rider either, he had one very bad day but he improved on his GC position from last year and was active in the final week which suggests he has the endurance. He'd need to fully commit to it, but the potential is there.

I think if this was a test run to see how he could do on GC it's not been a success.

I'm not writing him off so maybe I was harsh but it's shown just how far he has to go. Yes he has to specialise if he has any chance but maybe people should be a bit harsher - seems to me he's being talked up behind what he's achieved where grand tours are concerned. If he was French we'd be laughing at the French talking up their next Tour hope.

Pidcock himself says that what he took from this tour - learning - is more valuable than a stage win. So it doesn't seem he's convinced he should chuck the GC in for stage hunting, classics, MTB and cross etc. He seems to think he knows what he got wrong, which is at least a step in the right direction to getting it right.

No_Ta_Doctor

Part of me thinks FDJ are scored very, very geberously here, but in all likelihood their actual Tour goal was Pinot's Big Day Out, where he got to do his solo home-roads panachtastic doomed ride through hordes of his fans. In which case, mission accomplished. They should probably get an A+ on the Netflixified scale

Pross

DeVlaeminck said:

andyp said:

Pross said:

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Yeah, definitely harsh. He was quite often the last non-UAE or Jumbo rider left in the group and the best of the rest on a couple of mountain stages.

Agreed, for a Tour debutant, a stage win and fifth on GC is a great return.

I don't see how you can conclude Pidcock is never going to be a GC rider either, he had one very bad day but he improved on his GC position from last year and was active in the final week which suggests he has the endurance. He'd need to fully commit to it, but the potential is there.

I think if this was a test run to see how he could do on GC it's not been a success.

I'm not writing him off so maybe I was harsh but it's shown just how far he has to go. Yes he has to specialise if he has any chance but maybe people should be a bit harsher - seems to me he's being talked up behind what he's achieved where grand tours are concerned. If he was French we'd be laughing at the French talking up their next Tour hope.

I don't think he has really been talked up so much as there has been speculation of whether or not he can be a contender. I'm not sure he was even being put forward as an option by Ineos this year and his race programme in the build-up didn't look like a rider looking to make a serious challenge. From the time their squad was announced it looked more like a bunch of potential stage hunters with Rodriguez to see how high he could finish. Fraile and Martinez were pretty poor whereas Kwiato and Castroviejo did better than expected. Bernal obviously still has a long way to go to be back in contention unfortunately and I suspect he won't get back there.

pblakeney

DeVlaeminck said:

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Did he ? Ok I must have forgotten. I'm still giving them a C as I don't think Ineos came into the sport for 5th and a couple of stages.

Only the totally optimistic would think they had GC ambitions for this years race.

DeVlaeminck

They chose to send their A team to the Giro.

Re Pidcock no his prep doesn't look like a GC prep - but Ineos sent him to ride GC. Yes maybe his prep was poor - that's a bit of a dog ate my homework excuse - they've had 12 months since he won on the Alpe so if he's seen as a possible GC prospect get the prep right - or don't send him to ride GC.

kingstongraham

Bahrain definitely deserve their A, maybe A+ after that interview by Mohoric. One of my top moments of the race.

pblakeney

DeVlaeminck said:

They chose to send their A team to the Giro.
...

Exactly.
I think they are still assessing Pidcock's strengths and weaknesses in GTs.
This was a transition tour. Any results were a bonus.

mididoctors

Movistar were unimaginative tactics wise ..get a guy in the break . Teams that won or shaped the race used multiple riders .... Just getting in the break of the day doesn't cut it anymore . ... especially as the break of the day is becoming a more fluid concept [big topic] Jorgensen was there only performer and he rode himself into the ground on a number of occasions

davidof

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Part of me thinks FDJ are scored very, very geberously here, but in all likelihood their actual Tour goal was Pinot's Big Day Out, where he got to do his solo home-roads panachtastic doomed ride through hordes of his fans. In which case, mission accomplished. They should probably get an A+ on the Netflixified scale

Peanut said this tour confirmed that his decision to retire was correct.

Eurosport's French version wrote an eulogy "Almost anonymous, What will anyone remember of Pinots 2023 in a few years? Or even a few days? Still his Palmares speak for themselves, GT stages and a monument are already something, at least on the scale of the lamentable state of French cycling today but it is clear, he wasn't a winning machine. A romantic, a packet of emotions, a Poulidor who the crowds could cry for"

mididoctors

Pross said:

r0bh said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Ineos - C - big budget team with a largely invisible rider in 5th. Pidcock has pretty much confirmed himself as never going to be a GC rider. C is a pass - couple of stages is a pass but they won't be satisfied.

I would dispute that Rodriguez was "largely invisible" - he won a mountain stage!

Yeah, definitely harsh. He was quite often the last non-UAE or Jumbo rider left in the group and the best of the rest on a couple of mountain stages.

Wout poul wins the zubeldia stage win prize

kingstongraham

Movistar were all in for their nearly man who could in theory have come third. Tricky to know what to do when he doesn't finish stage 1.

andyp

DeVlaeminck said:

They chose to send their A team to the Giro.

Re Pidcock no his prep doesn't look like a GC prep - but Ineos sent him to ride GC. Yes maybe his prep was poor - that's a bit of a dog ate my homework excuse - they've had 12 months since he won on the Alpe so if he's seen as a possible GC prospect get the prep right - or don't send him to ride GC.

They sent him to ride GC to see how he did, i.e. as an experiment, and not with any expectations that he would guarantee them a podium place. Rod Ellingworth was clear about this on a number of occasions, it was very definitely a learning exercise for him (and Rodriguez).

I'm no defender of Ineos, or Pidcock, but I think they are very aware that this is a time of transition for them and they came to the Tour with lower expectations than before. I'd say two stage wins and 5th on GC is pretty good considering.

kingstongraham

No idea why they sent Bernal.

edward.s

Feels like Pinots main qualification over the years has been to be French, on a French team.

DeVlaeminck

andyp said:

DeVlaeminck said:

They chose to send their A team to the Giro.

Re Pidcock no his prep doesn't look like a GC prep - but Ineos sent him to ride GC. Yes maybe his prep was poor - that's a bit of a dog ate my homework excuse - they've had 12 months since he won on the Alpe so if he's seen as a possible GC prospect get the prep right - or don't send him to ride GC.

They sent him to ride GC to see how he did, i.e. as an experiment, and not with any expectations that he would guarantee them a podium place. Rod Ellingworth was clear about this on a number of occasions, it was very definitely a learning exercise for him (and Rodriguez).

I'm no defender of Ineos, or Pidcock, but I think they are very aware that this is a time of transition for them and they came to the Tour with lower expectations than before. I'd say two stage wins and 5th on GC is pretty good considering.

Sure but they are a big budget team with an unparalleled record in grand tours in the post Armstrong era.

They may have expected an average Tour but that is what they got - so a C is what they deserve.

joeyhalloran

DeVlaeminck said:

They chose to send their A team to the Giro.

Re Pidcock no his prep doesn't look like a GC prep - but Ineos sent him to ride GC. Yes maybe his prep was poor - that's a bit of a dog ate my homework excuse - they've had 12 months since he won on the Alpe so if he's seen as a possible GC prospect get the prep right - or don't send him to ride GC.

I don't think they did send Pidcock "to ride GC", they just sent him to learn. This is the first time he has tried to be consistent across 3 weeks. Both Ineos and TP are finding out where his limits are, which is fine.

Also, this is the quote from Him:
“This year I learned. I've come away with nothing but I've come away with everything. I have a much better understanding of what it takes to win and succeed in this race in the GC. I think that is more valuable than winning a stage.”

“I think the stage to Morzine, when it went wrong, I dug deep to the finish. It shocked my body a bit, I've been almost three kilos heavier than race weight since then and it’s hard to keep being positive when it’s an uphill battle.”

No_Ta_Doctor

Wait, what? Were does 3kg suddenly appear from in the middle of a GT? I remember him saying something about mucking his hydration up, has he somehow drunk 3 litres he hasn't peed or sweated out?

r0bh

On Watts Occurring G said that he can gain 2.5kg from fluid retention if a rest day is taken too easy (IIRC) so maybe something like that? Basically the body going into shock mode and hanging on to all the resources it can get