2023 Tour de France Femmes, 23rd-30th July ***Spoilers***

Dorset_Boy

Reusser looks good on a TT bike
Shame Kasia couldn't hang on to second.

jimmyjams

No_Ta_Doctor said:

I guess the danger of finishing a race on a tt is if the race is already decided then nobody wants to watch...

At the finish, the crowds didn't look that small, and along the rural roads of a TT route there is often no one (I watched Wiggins go by in the TT of 2012 with hardly another soul around, although he was an incline so not a full speed).

I watched today's TT on France 2 TV channel, and don't have the impression I was the only one tuned in. The commentators were much better/racing-informative today (perhaps as there were fewer chateaux/sights to talk about!) Obviously they were gunning for Labous but I thought them very objective/realistic in their overall assessments.

Ja-Ja is on the French TV team and although his input is fine, I think his laid-back and confident manner is his most appealing quality as commentator.
I have a slight connection to Ja-Ja - I have as souvenir, a feed bag he once tossed away, after having put its contents in his back pockets!

(For those who might be interested, on France 2, Voeckler often does the reports from the motorbike alongside the race, and pretty talkative he is too).

mididoctors

jimmyjams said:

mididoctors said:

Have the tt mid race ..acts as a sort of rest day for the weaker squads

Next year the opening stage is supposed to be TT, perhaps like a double-length prologue, so 14-15 km, like the men's TdF has occasionally used. Don't know if a second TT is planned (but I hope not).

I can't see 2 tts

mididoctors

Dorset_Boy said:

Reusser looks good on a TT bike
Shame Kasia couldn't hang on to second.

She deserved the step up from last year with that ride . ...

davidof

jimmyjams said:

Ja-Ja is on the French TV team and although his input is fine, I think his laid-back and confident manner is his most appealing quality as commentator.
I have a slight connection to Ja-Ja - I have as souvenir, a feed bag he once tossed away, after having put its contents in his back pockets!

Did it have any empty syringes in it?

The France 2 team is far too big - we have Marion (Hérault-Garnier) interviewing the girls then 5 pundits standing at a desk including Nelson ***ing Montfort. It seems to be an exercise in transfering tax payer's money into has been commentators pockets. Jalabert and the ginger headed woman would be enough, surely?

jimmyjams

davidof said:

jimmyjams said:

Ja-Ja is on the French TV team and although his input is fine, I think his laid-back and confident manner is his most appealing quality as commentator.
I have a slight connection to Ja-Ja - I have as souvenir, a feed bag he once tossed away, after having put its contents in his back pockets!

Did it have any empty syringes in it?

The France 2 team is far too big - we have Marion (Hérault-Garnier) interviewing the girls then 5 pundits standing at a desk including Nelson ***ing Montfort. It seems to be an exercise in transfering tax payer's money into has been commentators pockets. Jalabert and the ginger headed woman would be enough, surely?

You are right about the France 2 commentatory team being too big.
I find one well-informed presenter/commentator plus 2 ex-riders as co-commentators/studio-pundits works well – enough people to give differing opinions and insights. It is the format on german Eurosport.
SRF 2 (Swiss TV) also works well, with one ex-rider as co-commentator, but then another ex-rider joining in when it is pundit-time.
Both channels have another person to occcasionally speak just about the chateaux, lakes, etc.

davidof

jimmyjams said:

You are right about the France 2 commentatory team being too big.
I find one well-informed presenter/commentator plus 2 ex-riders as co-commentators/studio-pundits works well

I think Jalabert was good on the ladies race, partly because I feel he's not a great fan so is quite objective about the racing without being negative.

What did people think of the Parcours? Having the mountain stage near the end at least means someone doesnt' seal the deal in the first day and it seems clear that DemiVollering is the correct winner - a longer race wouldn't have let AvV come back as she was "pogged"

Lanterne_Rogue

The parcours is a tricky one. Arguably a tougher opening couple of stages would have increased the opportunity for more aggressive racing than we saw in the first few days, because there would have been more margin to give the break (and more incentive to try and drive one, if it were more likely to succeed). On the other hand we saw two breaks just make it, so...

Ultimately having a really interesting tour comes down to having the right riders riding in the right way on the right parcours, and that's largely a matter of luck. If AVV or a couple of others had been in better form, or if SD Worx weren't so insanely over-powered compared to every other team, it might have been more interesting over the last couple of days? That's beyond the organisers' ability to control.

jimmyjams

mididoctors said:

You need two mountain stages to get kopecky way off the podium

I don't think they will be including two stiff mountain stages again soon, after how the stages 7 and 8 destroyed the field in 2022.

I also don't know how they will include even one mountain stage next year, unless there is a long transfer, but which I suspect logistically and financially most teams wouldn't want.

The 2024 Tour Femmes starts in Rotterdam, and is to be one day less than the last two events (although same number of stages; day-1 is to include two stages, like often done decades ago in the men's TdF). Day 2 is also in the Netherlands, leaving only 5 other days/stages.
And if they keep to the same idea as in these first two Tours Femmes, the distance from overall start to overall finish (as the crow flies) will only be about 400 km.
From Rotterdam, 400 km, even 500 km, doesn't get you to many mountains, the (easier) north end of the Vosges at best (but will they go thereabouts already again?)

However, no high-mountain stages may make the GC race more open (or mean a greater SDW domination)

Pross

davidof said:

jimmyjams said:

You are right about the France 2 commentatory team being too big.
I find one well-informed presenter/commentator plus 2 ex-riders as co-commentators/studio-pundits works well

I think Jalabert was good on the ladies race, partly because I feel he's not a great fan so is quite objective about the racing without being negative.

What did people think of the Parcours? Having the mountain stage near the end at least means someone doesnt' seal the deal in the first day and it seems clear that DemiVollering is the correct winner - a longer race wouldn't have let AvV come back as she was "pogged"

I would have had the TT a day or two earlier and the MTF to finish but probably wouldn’t have made much difference. The strength in depth is the biggest issue although you could argue the same for the men.

jimmyjams

davidof said:

What did people think of the Parcours? Having the mountain stage near the end at least means someone doesnt' seal the deal in the first day and it seems clear that DemiVollering is the correct winner - a longer race wouldn't have let AvV come back as she was "pogged"

I think the parcours was good except for the Tourmalet stage (i mean for the race - I did enjoy watching that stage).
The first 6 stages were even better than last year as bumpier, and bumpy stages often make for more interesting racing.
Of the first 6 stages, three were judged hilly and even the three supposedly flat stages were actually slightly hilly (as was even the TT). Compared to last year, the first 6 stages this year had 50% more climbing, about 10,750 m as against 7,200 m in 2022, which I consider a great improvement for the resultant racing.

However I think the Tourmalet stage had too much in it. After last year, when the climbs of the last two stages decimated the GC field, the organisers sensibly reduced the big climbing stages from two to one, however the Tourmalet stage with its two big climbs towards the end still proved very hard for many in the field (of the about 2600 m climbing, over 2200 m was in the last 40 km).

To have either just done the Tourmalet (going there via Bagnere de Bigorre, not over the Aspin), or to have finished at the top of the Aspin climbing it from Ste Marie de Campan, having first gone over the Col de Beyrède from the west (a pass of similar height and length as the Aspin) may have been better for all, and more competitive.
That would be like 2x Aspin, probably far more manageable for most riders than Aspin + Tourmalet.

(I like my second idea best, but parts of Beyrède would need re-surfacing unless this has been done in the last few years).

I think I'd consider putting the main mountain-stage slightly earlier in the race, not at the very end (or almost end). I don't think it would necessarily mean ' the deal is sealed'. because (although SDW could prove me wrong), I don't think the women's teams are so strong to comfortably defend a yellow jersey taken on a stage-5 (not too hard) MTF, if there are still 2-3 hilly stages to follow. Which could then mean exciting racing until the very end.

mididoctors

davidof said:

jimmyjams said:

You are right about the France 2 commentatory team being too big.
I find one well-informed presenter/commentator plus 2 ex-riders as co-commentators/studio-pundits works well

I think Jalabert was good on the ladies race, partly because I feel he's not a great fan so is quite objective about the racing without being negative.

What did people think of the Parcours? Having the mountain stage near the end at least means someone doesnt' seal the deal in the first day and it seems clear that DemiVollering is the correct winner - a longer race wouldn't have let AvV come back as she was "pogged"

Maybe if there was 10 or 11 stages ...

I thought the route was GOOD and the racing interesting as it broke the mold of women's racing a bit ...nothing for any of the sprinters really

m.r.m.

I think the parcours could have used one more shorter climb like Pra Loup.

Lanterne_Rogue

With regards to sprinters, iirc stage 3 was a sprint, stage 5 was expected to be one but everyone was knackered, and stage 6 they muffed up the chase and the tramline catastrophe might have made a mess of it anyway.

Might have a couple of the stage numbers wrong tho'.

phreak

jimmyjams said:

However I think the Tourmalet stage had too much in it. After last year, when the climbs of the last two stages decimated the GC field, the organisers sensibly reduced the big climbing stages from two to one, however the Tourmalet stage with its two big climbs towards the end still proved very hard for many in the field (of the about 2600 m climbing, over 2200 m was in the last 40 km).

To have either just done the Tourmalet (going there via Bagnere de Bigorre, not over the Aspin), or to have finished at the top of the Aspin climbing it from Ste Marie de Campan, having first gone over the Col de Beyrède from the west (a pass of similar height and length as the Aspin) may have been better for all, and more competitive.
That would be like 2x Aspin, probably far more manageable for most riders than Aspin + Tourmalet.

Given a fair few women completed the Marmotte Pyrenees, which was twice as long with over double the elevation than in the Tour, I reckon the best women racers in the world could perfectly manage the Aspin and Tourmalet, especially given that the whole stage took less than 3 hours for the leaders to complete. Vollering rode the whole Tourmalet at over 5wkg. They're hardly club riders.

ddraver

🫣🫣🫣🫣🫣

https://racing.trekbikes.com/stories/lidl-trek-women/a-pause-for-elisa-longo-borghini

orraloon

Wire brush and Dettol, sah! 😉

Shame that she's out of action.

jimmyjams

phreak said:

jimmyjams said:

However I think the Tourmalet stage had too much in it. After last year, when the climbs of the last two stages decimated the GC field, the organisers sensibly reduced the big climbing stages from two to one, however the Tourmalet stage with its two big climbs towards the end still proved very hard for many in the field (of the about 2600 m climbing, over 2200 m was in the last 40 km).

To have either just done the Tourmalet (going there via Bagnere de Bigorre, not over the Aspin), or to have finished at the top of the Aspin climbing it from Ste Marie de Campan, having first gone over the Col de Beyrède from the west (a pass of similar height and length as the Aspin) may have been better for all, and more competitive.
That would be like 2x Aspin, probably far more manageable for most riders than Aspin + Tourmalet.

Given a fair few women completed the Marmotte Pyrenees, which was twice as long with over double the elevation than in the Tour, I reckon the best women racers in the world could perfectly manage the Aspin and Tourmalet, especially given that the whole stage took less than 3 hours for the leaders to complete. Vollering rode the whole Tourmalet at over 5wkg. They're hardly club riders.

It's not that I think the women can't manage the climbs, I'm sure they can, it's that when there is markedly wide range in climbing ability/climbing speed, making things hard reduces the competition aspect of the race to a sort-of survival of the fittest.

phreak

jimmyjams said:

phreak said:

jimmyjams said:

However I think the Tourmalet stage had too much in it. After last year, when the climbs of the last two stages decimated the GC field, the organisers sensibly reduced the big climbing stages from two to one, however the Tourmalet stage with its two big climbs towards the end still proved very hard for many in the field (of the about 2600 m climbing, over 2200 m was in the last 40 km).

To have either just done the Tourmalet (going there via Bagnere de Bigorre, not over the Aspin), or to have finished at the top of the Aspin climbing it from Ste Marie de Campan, having first gone over the Col de Beyrède from the west (a pass of similar height and length as the Aspin) may have been better for all, and more competitive.
That would be like 2x Aspin, probably far more manageable for most riders than Aspin + Tourmalet.

Given a fair few women completed the Marmotte Pyrenees, which was twice as long with over double the elevation than in the Tour, I reckon the best women racers in the world could perfectly manage the Aspin and Tourmalet, especially given that the whole stage took less than 3 hours for the leaders to complete. Vollering rode the whole Tourmalet at over 5wkg. They're hardly club riders.

It's not that I think the women can't manage the climbs, I'm sure they can, it's that when there is markedly wide range in climbing ability/climbing speed, making things hard reduces the competition aspect of the race to a sort-of survival of the fittest.

Isn't that what the Tour has historically always been about?

Lanterne_Rogue

jimmyjams said:

However I think the Tourmalet stage had too much in it. After last year, when the climbs of the last two stages decimated the GC field, the organisers sensibly reduced the big climbing stages from two to one, however the Tourmalet stage with its two big climbs towards the end still proved very hard for many in the field (of the about 2600 m climbing, over 2200 m was in the last 40 km).

I completely agree that a time gap of over 36 minutes to the last rider on a stage that includes the Tourmalet is too much, and a sign that ability in the peloton is too wide. It's just too hard for many in the field...



(not picking a fight here, JJ - though I think one stage producing a two minute split between the leaders isn't super ridiculous unless it's a single shortish time trial, and oh look we're back onto the men... At some point somebody actually has to win the race, and the nature of cycling is that it's usually on a big hill somewhere)

poweredbyidris

First of all they need to bin the requirement for the commentators to have to say 'avec Zwift' every time they mention the race name.

Just sounds like they're mindlessly parroting slogans (which I guess they are)

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Sounds like the TT should have maybe been somewhere in the middle, to break up the tour a bit.

takethehighroad

poweredbyidris said:

First of all they need to bin the requirement for the commentators to have to say 'avec Zwift' every time they mention the race name.

Just sounds like they're mindlessly parroting slogans (which I guess they are)

I noticed sponsors being mentioned inordinately frequently.

I thought her full name was Lotte Kopecky of SD Works by the end

davidof

This is what France TV said about the viewing figures they had

"After the first edition of the Tour de France Femmes in 2022, the popular success of this saga of women's sport is confirmed once again this year.

Thanks to an exceptional and reinforced coverage with almost 25 hours of live coverage on France 2 and France 3, 19.7 million French people*, or 35% of the population, watched this edition of the Tour de France Femmes.

Individual viewing time: the average French person watched 49 minutes of the Tour on our channels.

In the afternoons: An average of 2 million viewers and 24.8% audience share.

Best stage: Saturday 29 July, with an average of 2.8 million viewers and a peak of 4.3 million for the Tourmalet finish."

but how does that compare to 2022?

"The finish of the reborn Tour de France Femmes, 33 years after the last real women's Grand Loop, was watched by an average of 3.29 million viewers on France 3 on Sunday between 3pm and 6pm (30.9% audience share).

According to France Télévisions, four of the eight stages of the race, finally won by Dutchwoman Annemiek van Vleuten, reached or exceeded 2 million viewers.

The start, on 24 July on France 2, attracted 3.1 million viewers. On average, the next seven stages broadcast on France 3 attracted 2.1 million viewers. And 19.8 million people watched at least one minute of the race."

So a slight drop compared to last year.

But the men's race barely saw more viewers, according to France TV:

"Between 1 pm and 3 pm on France 3, the event attracted an average of 2.45 million viewers between Saturday 1 and Saturday 22 July 2023, representing 24.1% of the public aged four and over."

rick_chasey

Yeah no sh!t, you put cycling on the main telly channel, the people who watch cycling are gonna watch it.

I doubt many people give a sh!t which gender they are. Cycling's cycling.

Really struggle with the sceptics on this. What were they expecting? That everyone's a misogynist? Most people don't care, they just want entertaining sport.

rick_chasey

My main complaint here in the UK is that I didn't have a GCN subbie and it wasn't on terrestrial on UK Dutch or Belgian TV so I couldn't easily watch it.

stage_hunter

poweredbyidris said:

First of all they need to bin the requirement for the commentators to have to say 'avec Zwift' every time they mention the race name.

Just sounds like they're mindlessly parroting slogans (which I guess they are)

Without that requirement, there is no race, at the moment. I think people need to wake up to the fact that stuff needs to be paid for. Sadly, at times, that means having the absolute ballache of listening to two extra words at times, or making sure you dont skip the ads on a podcast.

If you skip the ads, that podcast might not be there in a month's time.

DeVlaeminck

Have been avoiding the thread as only just finished watching the race.

I don't mind the hard mountain stages - as above at some point someone has to win the race and the TdF has traditionally been won in the mountains.

Comparing the women's peloton to the men is necessarily that helpful - there isn't the same strength in depth but then in previous decades there wasn't in the men's peloton either.