TDF 2023: Stage 17:- Saint Gervais to Courchevel, 166km ***Spoilers***
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Where should Pogacar have been more prudent? The only really wreckless move was Vingegaard where he kept towing Pogacar, was countered and lost time.
Pogs attacks have been because he needed to make up time after a bad day - unless he was supposed to ride for second his tactics haven't been bad he's just not lasted the three weeks.
The facts don't fit the narrative that Pog needs to rethink how he races.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1 -
Blythe mentioned it quite a lot. I think it was 35 degrees in the valley and, as mentioned above, 31 degrees at altitudeddraver said:
Not sure it was that hot was it? It was raining at points...Pross said:Wasn’t the popular wisdom that Pog struggles in the heat and with altitude? Today was supposedly very hot and climbed to well over 2000m so maybe there is something in that. I still think he’s looked tired for days now though.
To be honest I think it was too big a pop for that (and I still think a lot of it was mental. If he didn't have enough to attack, what was the point...)0 -
I was stood right by Matt on that bottom one. Can’t remember if it was that year or the one before that they were handing out Welsh cakes, Luke was with them the one year early in his career with Sky.RichN95. said:
The best punch in cycling - Chris Froome. Look at the pain on this T-Rex's faceLanterne_Rogue said:btw, the Bilbao thing - pretty sure Carlton was just about to say "we don't like to see that kind of thing", and Carlton could not be more wrong about that.
Although Contador seems to have landed one here.
On Caerphilly Mountain we organise proper fights. (Apparently the fan was Luke Rowe's brother/Dani Rowe's husband, Matt)
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Gutted for Pog. He's lit up cycling since he burst onto the scene and is a great down to earth lad.
When I saw his jersey open I knew he was in trouble, and not long after that he started falling back.
The only positive for me on a personal level is that I fly out to Zante today and was worried beforehand about not being able to find somewhere which would have the cycling on to catch the last three days of the tour.
No need to bother now. It's over!
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Really hope that one day in the future Pog uses that jersey-unzip as part of a bluff1
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Taking his glasses off is the first clue.bonk_king said:Gutted for Pog. He's lit up cycling since he burst onto the scene and is a great down to earth lad.
When I saw his jersey open I knew he was in trouble, and not long after that he started falling back.
The only positive for me on a personal level is that I fly out to Zante today and was worried beforehand about not being able to find somewhere which would have the cycling on to catch the last three days of the tour.
No need to bother now. It's over!The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
RichN95. said:
Pello Bilbao: Inapproriate behaviour (to a spectator)
He should have got bonus seconds
That was a pretty defensive action tbh ...could of got knocked off by the sudden spectator movement or at least reacted as though in the moment ... wasn't riding up the hill going "I'm going to hit that guy""If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Pogs best chance was joux plane ..he attacked way to early .DeVlaeminck said:Where should Pogacar have been more prudent? The only really wreckless move was Vingegaard where he kept towing Pogacar, was countered and lost time.
Pogs attacks have been because he needed to make up time after a bad day - unless he was supposed to ride for second his tactics haven't been bad he's just not lasted the three weeks.
The facts don't fit the narrative that Pog needs to rethink how he races."If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
That seems entirely appropriate behaviour.RichN95. said:Lanterne_Rogue said:
Pello Bilbao: Inapproriate behaviour (to a spectator)
He should have got bonus seconds0 -
Apart from Stage 6 Pog's attacks have been high energy cost for low reward. That is what you can argue he needs to change, save his energy for fewer attacks that each gain him more timeDeVlaeminck said:Where should Pogacar have been more prudent? The only really wreckless move was Vingegaard where he kept towing Pogacar, was countered and lost time.
Pogs attacks have been because he needed to make up time after a bad day - unless he was supposed to ride for second his tactics haven't been bad he's just not lasted the three weeks.
The facts don't fit the narrative that Pog needs to rethink how he races.
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That was a pretty defensive action tbh ...could of got knocked off by the sudden spectator movement or at least reacted as though in the moment ... wasn't riding up the hill going "I'm going to hit that guy"mididoctors said:RichN95. said:
Pello Bilbao: Inapproriate behaviour (to a spectator)
He should have got bonus seconds
Given what happened the last time a spectator got in the way of a rider and Jumbo's subsequent threat to take legal action, the UCI are bit rich even to give Bilbao a warning.
Time instead to issue a warning to these nob head spectators: the UCI bare no responsibility to any roadside cretin taking a selfie, running alongside riders, sticking flags up riders noses etc, who gets the Bernard Hinault treatment as a result."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.1 -
100% - if you choose to act like an a-hole and run alongside/take a selfie/wave a stupid fucking sign inches from these riders when they're at the limit then it's on you if they decide to tell you where to get off.
FAR too many 'fans' are trying to make these stages into social media exercises.Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.3 -
Just a reminder that Bilbao - in honour of the memory of Mäder who did something similar - is donating €1 for every rider he finishes ahead of, per stage, to a reforestation charity.
https://basos.eus/en/crowdfunding/Warning No formatter is installed for the format2 -
Yes, it was unusually hot at altitude yesterday and very hot and humid in the valleys - so much so I left my bike at home and drove into work yesterday. It is rare that it is too hot for me to cycle, at least in the morning.Lanterne_Rogue said:
Adam Blythe reported 31 degrees (proper European degrees, not those weedy American things) at about 2,000m. I think it's fair to say it was pretty warm.ddraver said:
Not sure it was that hot was it? It was raining at points...Pross said:Wasn’t the popular wisdom that Pog struggles in the heat and with altitude? Today was supposedly very hot and climbed to well over 2000m so maybe there is something in that. I still think he’s looked tired for days now though.
To be honest I think it was too big a pop for that (and I still think a lot of it was mental. If he didn't have enough to attack, what was the point...)BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
I dont know how widely this is known as Ive largely just watched the racing as opposed to listening to pundits this year, but Gino named his dog Pello. Having read that I delighted all over again that Bilbao won a stage.No_Ta_Doctor said:Just a reminder that Bilbao - in honour of the memory of Mäder who did something similar - is donating €1 for every rider he finishes ahead of, per stage, to a reforestation charity.
https://basos.eus/en/crowdfunding/2 -
In an interview beforehand he alluded to something drastic potentially happening if it was raining, which was highly unlikely given the weather, even at altitude.
Maybe that was a sign that he wasn't confident from the get go if it was to be another blisteringly hot day, which it was.
And yes, using the open jersey tactic as a sign he is weakening in future rides would be an awesome sight to behold. Glasses off, jersey open, looking like s**t, and then opening up a blistering attack leaving all in his wake. That is something that a swashbuckling rider such as Pogacar would do.0 -
With hindsight yes but that's a pretty minor thing - it's not like he was attacking two mountains out. Realistically he might be ten seconds or less better off.mididoctors said:
Pogs best chance was joux plane ..he attacked way to early .DeVlaeminck said:Where should Pogacar have been more prudent? The only really wreckless move was Vingegaard where he kept towing Pogacar, was countered and lost time.
Pogs attacks have been because he needed to make up time after a bad day - unless he was supposed to ride for second his tactics haven't been bad he's just not lasted the three weeks.
The facts don't fit the narrative that Pog needs to rethink how he races.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Regarding the big crack, I think it's unlikely that any single factor is a sole reason. Heat, altitude, the hardness of the stage, the crash, the cumulative fatigue that JV had been laying into him, getting spanked the day before, whatever wasn't working with his fueling, everyone expecting some sort of do-or-die fireworks, his team boss saying they had to ride for Yates' podium as the win was unrealistic - all of it plays in. I thought he did well to hold it at around 30" for so long before finally exploding completely.
I also think Jumbo-Visma have played him really well. Whether or not Vingegaard really had such a major advantage over him for a stage like yesterday's, the way they've been going on about it must have played into his head. The complete conviction that they'd do him in the third week, and all their strategy pointing to a mechanism for how they'd do it, even if he went into the race confident he must have been given some doubt. After the TT he was broken and the crack was almost inevitable.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Yeah perhaps but we didn't know that ....DeVlaeminck said:
With hindsight yes but that's a pretty minor thing - it's not like he was attacking two mountains out. Realistically he might be ten seconds or less better off.mididoctors said:
Pogs best chance was joux plane ..he attacked way to early .DeVlaeminck said:Where should Pogacar have been more prudent? The only really wreckless move was Vingegaard where he kept towing Pogacar, was countered and lost time.
Pogs attacks have been because he needed to make up time after a bad day - unless he was supposed to ride for second his tactics haven't been bad he's just not lasted the three weeks.
The facts don't fit the narrative that Pog needs to rethink how he races.
If he had got away with the bonus and a stage win plus enough time to be in yellow ....I would argue not impossible. The TT would have been closer stating behind . Not by much but a bit . Now a pog with a decent pre tour preparation and no broken wrist may have hung on"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I agree with a lot of this ...but whether it's all a big plan or not we can see big gaps can occur ... Yates 2018 giro..the guy was in yellow before last mountain 🏔️.No_Ta_Doctor said:Regarding the big crack, I think it's unlikely that any single factor is a sole reason. Heat, altitude, the hardness of the stage, the crash, the cumulative fatigue that JV had been laying into him, getting spanked the day before, whatever wasn't working with his fueling, everyone expecting some sort of do-or-die fireworks, his team boss saying they had to ride for Yates' podium as the win was unrealistic - all of it plays in. I thought he did well to hold it at around 30" for so long before finally exploding completely.
I also think Jumbo-Visma have played him really well. Whether or not Vingegaard really had such a major advantage over him for a stage like yesterday's, the way they've been going on about it must have played into his head. The complete conviction that they'd do him in the third week, and all their strategy pointing to a mechanism for how they'd do it, even if he went into the race confident he must have been given some doubt. After the TT he was broken and the crack was almost inevitable.
Similar dynamic big intense glycogen dumps cost you dearly later on.
My own view is jumbo tried for the early knock out and changed up when it didn't work . ...give them credit for that
The crisis stage for both riders was the joux plane ...both teams went super deep both leaders had a plan...Jonas saw off the challenge and had some luck .
The tour was won there"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I think those early stages - one worked well, one didn't - were a little opportunistic. They put some tactics together to possibly take some time early on, but these fit with the overall strategy of making the race hard from as early as possible with the third week in mind. They were very relaxed about the time they dropped. They were then a little more cautious in the 2nd week, having seen that Pog could still potentially hurt Vingegaard if things went pear-shapedmididoctors said:
I agree with a lot of this ...but whether it's all a big plan or not we can see big gaps can occur ... Yates 2018 giro..the guy was in yellow before last mountain 🏔️.No_Ta_Doctor said:Regarding the big crack, I think it's unlikely that any single factor is a sole reason. Heat, altitude, the hardness of the stage, the crash, the cumulative fatigue that JV had been laying into him, getting spanked the day before, whatever wasn't working with his fueling, everyone expecting some sort of do-or-die fireworks, his team boss saying they had to ride for Yates' podium as the win was unrealistic - all of it plays in. I thought he did well to hold it at around 30" for so long before finally exploding completely.
I also think Jumbo-Visma have played him really well. Whether or not Vingegaard really had such a major advantage over him for a stage like yesterday's, the way they've been going on about it must have played into his head. The complete conviction that they'd do him in the third week, and all their strategy pointing to a mechanism for how they'd do it, even if he went into the race confident he must have been given some doubt. After the TT he was broken and the crack was almost inevitable.
Similar dynamic big intense glycogen dumps cost you dearly later on.
My own view is jumbo tried for the early knock out and changed up when it didn't work . ...give them credit for that
The crisis stage for both riders was the joux plane ...both teams went super deep both leaders had a plan...Jonas saw off the challenge and had some luck .
The tour was won thereWarning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
All said and done, Vingegaard is probably too strong in a 3 week race. His entire preparation was towards the Tour. If Pogacar does the same, he may have a good chance, but I'm not convinced anymore that Pogacar can beat Vingegaard and JV at the Tour (summer heat, altitude etc.).
Vingegaard being so much better at descending removes some tactical opportunities for Pogacar for long range attacks on him. WVA as a satellite rider adds to that disadvantage.
Pogacar has to nibble bonus seconds, has to be aggressive for the entire 3 weeks, but always faces the risk of losing it in just a single day. It's an uphill struggle that Vingegaard and JV are much better suited for.
He remains the best rider in the world for me, but no longer the best 3 week GC rider.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20232 -
Ed Laverack's roadside view of the chaos on Col de la Loze
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBBwRtKC1Jw Warning No formatter is installed for the format0
