Weight, health & body image

focuszing723

You could argue there has been a drop in will power. More people are working from home now with a house full of grub, whilst in the office you're/were more restricted with food and self conscious about being a pig.

secretsqirrel

People give up smoking and compensate by eating more. Will power cancelled out

rjsterry

wallace_and_gromit said:

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

Wife went to a talk by the UK's main food advisor (that awful guy from Leon), and he was making the point that being overweight is not because people are feckless or lazy or lack willpower; else the sudden rise in people's waistlines over the past few decades would have correlated with a mass collapse in willpower, which clearly isn't the case.

The only way it's not a willpower issue is if they are force fed.

🙄

I mean, the idea that there has been some fundamental shift in the average 'will power' of the populations of various countries around the world is certainly novel.

It is possible that people are simply less motivated to keep their weight under control. There isn't the same social stigma to being a "porker" (I can say this, as it was my nickname for years, first cruelly and then ironically) as there was in my school days.

Seriously? You actually think that some imagined reduction in social stigma is responsible for the spike in obesity and diabetes. And that doesn't strike you as a bit tenuous?

And I'm pretty sure there is still social stigma to being overweight.

wallace_and_gromit

focuszing723 said:

You could argue there has been a drop in will power. More people are working from home now with a house full of grub, whilst in the office you're/were more restricted with food and self conscious about being a pig.

Isn't that WHF => greater opportunity and changed level of motivation?

Our longest standing friends are both seriously overweight and clearly have no motivation to do anything about it. Yet their garden would shame Percy Thrower and they "do gardening" in conditions in which I would certainly not contemplate riding my bike. Conversely, Mrs TFS and I are both committed to well beyond the point of obsessiveness about training and staying in shape, whilst bar a cursory run round with mower every couple of week, our garden is an un-tamed wilderness despite a few less than cryptic hints from neighbours that there are plenty of local youngsters happy to do gardening work at reasonable rates. We are simply motivated by different things and have virtually limitless willpower to do what we're motivated to do.

Sadly most people aren't motivated to stay in shape. Hopefully they are motivated to do something else that is in some way satisfying / useful / healthy.

DeVlaeminck

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

The number of people smoking in the UK has dropped significantly from 45% in 1974 to 14.1% in 2019. Willpower has increased. QED.

Right. Exactly.

Doesn't nicotine suppress appetite ?

I think we may have hit upon a solution to the obesity crisis.

rjsterry

wallace_and_gromit said:

focuszing723 said:

You could argue there has been a drop in will power. More people are working from home now with a house full of grub, whilst in the office you're/were more restricted with food and self conscious about being a pig.

Isn't that WHF => greater opportunity and changed level of motivation?

Our longest standing friends are both seriously overweight and clearly have no motivation to do anything about it. Yet their garden would shame Percy Thrower and they "do gardening" in conditions in which I would certainly not contemplate riding my bike. Conversely, Mrs TFS and I are both committed to well beyond the point of obsessiveness about training and staying in shape, whilst bar a cursory run round with mower every couple of week, our garden is an un-tamed wilderness despite a few less than cryptic hints from neighbours that there are plenty of local youngsters happy to do gardening work at reasonable rates. We are simply motivated by different things and have virtually limitless willpower to do what we're motivated to do.

Sadly most people aren't motivated to stay in shape. Hopefully they are motivated to do something else that is in some way satisfying / useful / healthy.

Could it be that there's no longer as much social stigma attached to having a poorly maintained garden?

Or could it just be that people do stuff they enjoy? If you found that cycling had some nasty long term side effect on your health, would you stop? Or just say, "sod that! I enjoy cycling."

DeVlaeminck

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

Wife went to a talk by the UK's main food advisor (that awful guy from Leon), and he was making the point that being overweight is not because people are feckless or lazy or lack willpower; else the sudden rise in people's waistlines over the past few decades would have correlated with a mass collapse in willpower, which clearly isn't the case.

The only way it's not a willpower issue is if they are force fed.

🙄

I mean, the idea that there has been some fundamental shift in the average 'will power' of the populations of various countries around the world is certainly novel.

It depends how you define willpower. It's certainly possible that social attitudes change and there may be an element of that that affects our ability to deny ourselves the "pleasure" of stuffing our faces. For example maybe our perception of a reasonable portion size has changed over time or our acceptance of people being fat - if fat is ok then there's less incentive to restrict food intake.

wallace_and_gromit

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

Wife went to a talk by the UK's main food advisor (that awful guy from Leon), and he was making the point that being overweight is not because people are feckless or lazy or lack willpower; else the sudden rise in people's waistlines over the past few decades would have correlated with a mass collapse in willpower, which clearly isn't the case.

The only way it's not a willpower issue is if they are force fed.

🙄

I mean, the idea that there has been some fundamental shift in the average 'will power' of the populations of various countries around the world is certainly novel.

It is possible that people are simply less motivated to keep their weight under control. There isn't the same social stigma to being a "porker" (I can say this, as it was my nickname for years, first cruelly and then ironically) as there was in my school days.

Seriously? You actually think that some imagined reduction in social stigma is responsible for the spike in obesity and diabetes. And that doesn't strike you as a bit tenuous?

I did use word "possible" for a good reason!

I can only speak for myself. I was overweight at high school. I was hopeless at football and talking to girls, which were the only things that counted with the "popular people" at my school. I knew nothing about calories in and calories out, and basically ate too much whilst watching cricket and snooker on telly. I assumed - a view reinforced by comments from family etc - that I was simply destined to be "larger than the average bear" forever.

When C4 started its Tour de France coverage in the mid 80s (1984 rings a bell) I was most taken with accounts of how many calories the riders consumed in a day, started doing some research (being naturally nerdy) and formed this crazy theory that I could control my balance of calories in vs calories out and lose some weight. I relatively quickly got to a sensible weight, got some positive comments about this change of shape and found that my life was much better, even if for the basest of reasons: girls started talking to me rather than laughing at me. I vowed that I would never allow myself to get overweight again as I didn't like being overweight, due to the social stigma associated with it. (All guys know that whatever the reason, being laughed at by the ladies is an experience to be avoided!) And in the near 40 years since this vow, I never have, because staying in shape is second only to the wellbeing of close family in my list of priorities.

Maybe I'm just weird!

pblakeney

Perspective.


.
and
.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/why_we_are_proud_of_our_fat_bodies

wakemalcolm

So the price of smoking has skyrocketed, marketing them is pretty much illegal and the sales process is akin to buying 'something for the weekend' whereas the marginal price of additional calories has reduced and the marketing and availability of them has become a free for all.

Any wonder obesity is now costing the NHS nearly twice what smoking does?

It's the economy stupid, and something will have to be done to address it (probably get rid of the NHS if this lot stay in power). Sadly it'll take more than 5 years to turn this tanker around, so I have my concerns for whether this will happen. Who thinks: stealing candy from babies is electable?

DeVlaeminck

wallace_and_gromit said:

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

Wife went to a talk by the UK's main food advisor (that awful guy from Leon), and he was making the point that being overweight is not because people are feckless or lazy or lack willpower; else the sudden rise in people's waistlines over the past few decades would have correlated with a mass collapse in willpower, which clearly isn't the case.

The only way it's not a willpower issue is if they are force fed.

🙄

I mean, the idea that there has been some fundamental shift in the average 'will power' of the populations of various countries around the world is certainly novel.

It is possible that people are simply less motivated to keep their weight under control. There isn't the same social stigma to being a "porker" (I can say this, as it was my nickname for years, first cruelly and then ironically) as there was in my school days.

Seriously? You actually think that some imagined reduction in social stigma is responsible for the spike in obesity and diabetes. And that doesn't strike you as a bit tenuous?

I did use word "possible" for a good reason!

I can only speak for myself. I was overweight at high school. I was hopeless at football and talking to girls, which were the only things that counted with the "popular people" at my school. I knew nothing about calories in and calories out, and basically ate too much whilst watching cricket and snooker on telly. I assumed - a view reinforced by comments from family etc - that I was simply destined to be "larger than the average bear" forever.

When C4 started its Tour de France coverage in the mid 80s (1984 rings a bell) I was most taken with accounts of how many calories the riders consumed in a day, started doing some research (being naturally nerdy) and formed this crazy theory that I could control my balance of calories in vs calories out and lose some weight. I relatively quickly got to a sensible weight, got some positive comments about this change of shape and found that my life was much better, even if for the basest of reasons: girls started talking to me rather than laughing at me. I vowed that I would never allow myself to get overweight again as I didn't like being overweight, due to the social stigma associated with it. (All guys know that whatever the reason, being laughed at by the ladies is an experience to be avoided!) And in the near 40 years since this vow, I never have, because staying in shape is second only to the wellbeing of close family in my list of priorities.

Maybe I'm just weird!

There could also be a feedback loop going on - as people get fatter for a combination of reasons what is considered a normal healthy weight nudges upwards and so people have a higher target weight or don't feel the need to take action until they are bigger than would have been the case. You see it with some people wanting to gain weight - ok they often mean muscle but I think in part it's because there are so many lardy types around anyone lean can feel they are actually too skinny and feel pressure to gain a bit.

briantrumpet

DeVlaeminck said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

Wife went to a talk by the UK's main food advisor (that awful guy from Leon), and he was making the point that being overweight is not because people are feckless or lazy or lack willpower; else the sudden rise in people's waistlines over the past few decades would have correlated with a mass collapse in willpower, which clearly isn't the case.

The only way it's not a willpower issue is if they are force fed.

🙄

I mean, the idea that there has been some fundamental shift in the average 'will power' of the populations of various countries around the world is certainly novel.

It is possible that people are simply less motivated to keep their weight under control. There isn't the same social stigma to being a "porker" (I can say this, as it was my nickname for years, first cruelly and then ironically) as there was in my school days.

Seriously? You actually think that some imagined reduction in social stigma is responsible for the spike in obesity and diabetes. And that doesn't strike you as a bit tenuous?

I did use word "possible" for a good reason!

I can only speak for myself. I was overweight at high school. I was hopeless at football and talking to girls, which were the only things that counted with the "popular people" at my school. I knew nothing about calories in and calories out, and basically ate too much whilst watching cricket and snooker on telly. I assumed - a view reinforced by comments from family etc - that I was simply destined to be "larger than the average bear" forever.

When C4 started its Tour de France coverage in the mid 80s (1984 rings a bell) I was most taken with accounts of how many calories the riders consumed in a day, started doing some research (being naturally nerdy) and formed this crazy theory that I could control my balance of calories in vs calories out and lose some weight. I relatively quickly got to a sensible weight, got some positive comments about this change of shape and found that my life was much better, even if for the basest of reasons: girls started talking to me rather than laughing at me. I vowed that I would never allow myself to get overweight again as I didn't like being overweight, due to the social stigma associated with it. (All guys know that whatever the reason, being laughed at by the ladies is an experience to be avoided!) And in the near 40 years since this vow, I never have, because staying in shape is second only to the wellbeing of close family in my list of priorities.

Maybe I'm just weird!

There could also be a feedback loop going on - as people get fatter for a combination of reasons what is considered a normal healthy weight nudges upwards and so people have a higher target weight or don't feel the need to take action until they are bigger than would have been the case. You see it with some people wanting to gain weight - ok they often mean muscle but I think in part it's because there are so many lardy types around anyone lean can feel they are actually too skinny and feel pressure to gain a bit.

'Skinny' has also been a pejorative term, and certainly was when I was, er, skinny. It rather put me off doing anything with cycling beyond normal getting around riding, as I assumed that skinny=bad for anything physical (well, I was truly rubbish as rugby because of it).

If someone had taken me aside and told me that skinny cyclists could be very good, I might have done more with it. Oh well.

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rjsterry said:

wallace_and_gromit said:

rick_chasey said:

Wife went to a talk by the UK's main food advisor (that awful guy from Leon), and he was making the point that being overweight is not because people are feckless or lazy or lack willpower; else the sudden rise in people's waistlines over the past few decades would have correlated with a mass collapse in willpower, which clearly isn't the case.

The only way it's not a willpower issue is if they are force fed.

🙄

I mean, the idea that there has been some fundamental shift in the average 'will power' of the populations of various countries around the world is certainly novel.

It is possible that people are simply less motivated to keep their weight under control. There isn't the same social stigma to being a "porker" (I can say this, as it was my nickname for years, first cruelly and then ironically) as there was in my school days.

Seriously? You actually think that some imagined reduction in social stigma is responsible for the spike in obesity and diabetes. And that doesn't strike you as a bit tenuous?

I did use word "possible" for a good reason!

I can only speak for myself. I was overweight at high school. I was hopeless at football and talking to girls, which were the only things that counted with the "popular people" at my school. I knew nothing about calories in and calories out, and basically ate too much whilst watching cricket and snooker on telly. I assumed - a view reinforced by comments from family etc - that I was simply destined to be "larger than the average bear" forever.

When C4 started its Tour de France coverage in the mid 80s (1984 rings a bell) I was most taken with accounts of how many calories the riders consumed in a day, started doing some research (being naturally nerdy) and formed this crazy theory that I could control my balance of calories in vs calories out and lose some weight. I relatively quickly got to a sensible weight, got some positive comments about this change of shape and found that my life was much better, even if for the basest of reasons: girls started talking to me rather than laughing at me. I vowed that I would never allow myself to get overweight again as I didn't like being overweight, due to the social stigma associated with it. (All guys know that whatever the reason, being laughed at by the ladies is an experience to be avoided!) And in the near 40 years since this vow, I never have, because staying in shape is second only to the wellbeing of close family in my list of priorities.

Maybe I'm just weird!

There could also be a feedback loop going on - as people get fatter for a combination of reasons what is considered a normal healthy weight nudges upwards and so people have a higher target weight or don't feel the need to take action until they are bigger than would have been the case. You see it with some people wanting to gain weight - ok they often mean muscle but I think in part it's because there are so many lardy types around anyone lean can feel they are actually too skinny and feel pressure to gain a bit.

I do think we need to knock this idea on the head: that if only people realised they would jump into their trainers and empty the fridge of ready meals. You are seriously underestimating the ability of the human brain to lie to itself and take short term pleasure/coping over long term benefit. As a student I worked in the local hospital as a cleaner. IIRC at least 50% of the nurses working on the heart and lung ward - full of people literally gasping for air - would pop out for a cigarette on their break. I remember one nurse smoked rollups to try to help cut down. There was a whole section of the staff cafeteria *in a hospital* set aside for smokers for crying out loud!

DeVlaeminck

I would suggest a significant number of people do moderate how much they eat if they consider they are getting fat - I do and I'm not currently a competitive cyclist - if the meaning of "fat" changes then that response doesn't kick in as soon.

rjsterry

For some of course. But I think that depends why they are over-eating in the first place.

Pross

pblakeney said:

Perspective.


.
and
.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/why_we_are_proud_of_our_fat_bodies

This sort of thing is problematic in my opinion. Not bullying, accepting people as they are and offering support to those who are obese is good but actively celebrating it isn’t. The message still needs to be on the impacts on health.

I can’t imagine a similar article along the lines of smokers who have tried giving up but felt less happy so are celebrating a 50 a day habit or them featuring in ‘positivity’ adverts for fashion / cosmetic brands with some equivalent non-negative adjective to ‘plus size’ being given to them.

rjsterry

In my limited experience, feeling sh*t about yourself is a common reason for over-eating or other destructive behaviour. Possibly reinforcing that perception - 'you're a bad person for being overweight' - isn't the most helpful thing and is unlikely to encourage people to change that behaviour.

pblakeney

Sure, but normalising it won't help either.
As usual there is no simple solution or it wouldn't be a problem.

Pross

rjsterry said:

In my limited experience, feeling sh*t about yourself is a common reason for over-eating or other destructive behaviour. Possibly reinforcing that perception - 'you're a bad person for being overweight' - isn't the most helpful thing and is unlikely to encourage people to change that behaviour.

But the sort of thing in the article above is going beyond that, it is people actively celebrating being obese which like it or not is a major cause of health issues that add to the strain on the NHS. It has reached a stage where the likes of Dove advertise using 'plus size' models with the slogan 'love the skin you're in' and various clothing companies doing similar. Surely there's something between openly criticising people for being obese and telling them it is acceptable or even a good thing?

morstar

TheBigBean said:

The number of people smoking in the UK has dropped significantly from 45% in 1974 to 14.1% in 2019. Willpower has increased. QED.

Which although a silly remark to counter RC, actually raises an interesting point.

Smoking dulls taste buds and suppresses appetite.

If far fewer people smoke, it will be a contributor to more prevalent obesity.

morstar

DeVlaeminck said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

The number of people smoking in the UK has dropped significantly from 45% in 1974 to 14.1% in 2019. Willpower has increased. QED.

Right. Exactly.

Doesn't nicotine suppress appetite ?

I think we may have hit upon a solution to the obesity crisis.

Apologies, made my comment prior to reading this.

pblakeney

morstar said:

TheBigBean said:

The number of people smoking in the UK has dropped significantly from 45% in 1974 to 14.1% in 2019. Willpower has increased. QED.

Which although a silly remark to counter RC, actually raises an interesting point.

Smoking dulls taste buds and suppresses appetite.

If far fewer people smoke, it will be a contributor to more prevalent obesity.

In my mind the timescale between people stopping smoking and obesity overlap.
Probably not the only reason but must be a link in a percentage of the population.

rick_chasey

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

In my limited experience, feeling sh*t about yourself is a common reason for over-eating or other destructive behaviour. Possibly reinforcing that perception - 'you're a bad person for being overweight' - isn't the most helpful thing and is unlikely to encourage people to change that behaviour.

But the sort of thing in the article above is going beyond that, it is people actively celebrating being obese which like it or not is a major cause of health issues that add to the strain on the NHS. It has reached a stage where the likes of Dove advertise using 'plus size' models with the slogan 'love the skin you're in' and various clothing companies doing similar. Surely there's something between openly criticising people for being obese and telling them it is acceptable or even a good thing?

Is that not what the OP said?

rjsterry

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

In my limited experience, feeling sh*t about yourself is a common reason for over-eating or other destructive behaviour. Possibly reinforcing that perception - 'you're a bad person for being overweight' - isn't the most helpful thing and is unlikely to encourage people to change that behaviour.

But the sort of thing in the article above is going beyond that, it is people actively celebrating being obese which like it or not is a major cause of health issues that add to the strain on the NHS. It has reached a stage where the likes of Dove advertise using 'plus size' models with the slogan 'love the skin you're in' and various clothing companies doing similar. Surely there's something between openly criticising people for being obese and telling them it is acceptable or even a good thing?

I think those two are really the same thing. And acceptable to whom? What happened to personal freedom. There's already plenty of NHS information/advertising for people looking for help to lose weight, not to mention an entire industry feeding off the issue and constantly reminding people that they should take out gym membership, etc. I'm not sure one photo off the internet is really a change.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

My guess would be that it is probably a bit more complex than people 'celebrating' obesity or promoting body positivity (or whichever way we frame it).

I think there are many people who, for a variety of reasons, cannot maintain a healthy weight and have chosen to accept this and are trying to forge a mindset that accepts and embraces this. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing, if it is a straight up choice between disliking your body/yourself and suffering poor mental health, or being more positive about it and getting on with life, I completely understand the latter. I guess you just have to accept that in this case, it does come with a potential cost to physical health and wellbeing.

Pross

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

In my limited experience, feeling sh*t about yourself is a common reason for over-eating or other destructive behaviour. Possibly reinforcing that perception - 'you're a bad person for being overweight' - isn't the most helpful thing and is unlikely to encourage people to change that behaviour.

But the sort of thing in the article above is going beyond that, it is people actively celebrating being obese which like it or not is a major cause of health issues that add to the strain on the NHS. It has reached a stage where the likes of Dove advertise using 'plus size' models with the slogan 'love the skin you're in' and various clothing companies doing similar. Surely there's something between openly criticising people for being obese and telling them it is acceptable or even a good thing?

I think those two are really the same thing. And acceptable to whom? What happened to personal freedom. There's already plenty of NHS information/advertising for people looking for help to lose weight, not to mention an entire industry feeding off the issue and constantly reminding people that they should take out gym membership, etc. I'm not sure one photo off the internet is really a change.

Did you not read the BBC article in the link above? I agree with you that we need to look at the more complex issues that lead to people to over-eat but portraying being morbidly obese as a 'positive' is ridiculous. Would we do the same with someone saying 'I tried to give up being alcohol dependent but it made me unhappy so I've gone back to drinking a bottle of vodka a day'? Adverts glamourising smoking and drinking have gradually been banned or restricted but at the same time adverts saying it is OK to be obese are on the rise.

rjsterry

No, sorry, I didn't read it.

Adverts for alcohol - a pretty big contributor to obesity - are everywhere. They have not been almost banned. I think you are overplaying the comparative impact of the odd Dove advert that dares to suggest that maybe it's nobody else's business what shape a person is.

Dorset_Boy

rjsterry said:

No, sorry, I didn't read it.

Adverts for alcohol - a pretty big contributor to obesity - are everywhere. They have not been almost banned. I think you are overplaying the comparative impact of the odd Dove advert that dares to suggest that maybe it's nobody else's business what shape a person is.

Except it is when it becomes a strain on the NHS and care system.

TheBigBean

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

No, sorry, I didn't read it.

Adverts for alcohol - a pretty big contributor to obesity - are everywhere. They have not been almost banned. I think you are overplaying the comparative impact of the odd Dove advert that dares to suggest that maybe it's nobody else's business what shape a person is.

Except it is when it becomes a strain on the NHS and care system.

So is DIY, rugby, horse riding etc.

DeVlaeminck

I don't think there's anything wrong with the body positive stuff - if it helps people feel happier.

Plus size models why not, maybe we can have a movement for ugly blokes to get modelling jobs too to make us...I mean them... feel better about themselves.