'Ouses, Greenbelt and stuff

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

Tashman said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

I miss my Exeter-Paris flights... 20 mins cycle to the airport, 5 mins max for security. Kind of surprised no-one's yet replaced Flybe, as Bristol is a PITA in comparison for the SW peninsula.

It didn't make enough money, end of. I've spent a lot of time at Exeter Airport and it's never seemed busy, just holiday routes in the summer and particular routes within the UK. The Edinburgh flight always still seems busy. So busy in fact that Loganair routinely have to delay it a couple of hours to squeeze everyone on.

And tbh it really ought to be easier to get to Paris by train.

From the SW you'd have to train it to Waterloo / Paddington, then across town to Kings Cross, then Eurostar it to Paris.
That's a tonne more hassle than flying from Exe, BRS, BOH or SOU

Rail works if your are in or around London.
Travelling cross country without going via London is a mare by rail and will probably involve mutiple changes of train.
I guess that's the same issue the northern cities have, they are not connected well by rail.

Well yes, that's why I said ought.

The SW will never get better connections to London. Well, certainly not before the north and its much bigger population, and I can't see that happening in my lifetime, such is the chaos of HS2. No-one's going to announce a big infrastructure programme for decades after that. They can't even get round to completing the dual-carriagewaying of the A303, and that's been 'on the cards' for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66201424

That's a start. Next, the Blackdown Hills...

Can someone explain to me the controversy over this? I would have thought that a tunnel would remove the relentless backdrop of traffic (often tailbacks) near Stonehenge, and thereby improve the site.

Why don't locals want that?

Damage to a World Heritage Site I believe. I think the main argument is the tunnel needs to extend further to avoid impact on the full extent of the WHS but even at its current length is a waste of money so should be scrapped.

This. There are Neolithic and Bronze Age structures everywhere you turn in that part of Wiltshire. Stonehenge is just the best known bit of the landscape. Essentially the same design has already been blocked by the High Court. The DfT has just tweaked their plans to justify another go. There's also no funding available.

What's the alternative? (not a rhetorical question).

At some point the South-West needs decent access to the rest of the UK.

That's the M5. The problem in the SW is getting to the M5, because it ends at Exeter and leaves quite a bit of the UK without a motorway. The A38 is dual until Plymouth but is badly engineered and this reduces capacity, and the A30 is excellent for parking on in the summer.

Objectively I'd you did want to funnel more traffic into these bottlenecks, you'd extend west from the M27 through the New Forest.

So take your pick. World Heritage site, or National Park?

rick_chasey

Right, there we go. Much better.

In general all this objections to infrastructure; if I was a lawmaker, I'd try to arrange objections as such that if they want to object they have to offer a better alternative, and if they can't do that, then they have to give a good enough evidenced case to suggest why the whole thing should be scrapped.

Only then, can their objection be upheld.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

Right, there we go. Much better.

In general all this objections to infrastructure; if I was a lawmaker, I'd try to arrange objections as such that if they want to object they have to offer a better alternative, and if they can't do that, then they have to give a good enough evidenced case to suggest why the whole thing should be scrapped.

Only then, can their objection be upheld.

If it were me I'd focus on M5 capacity and links to and from it, rather than creating an alternative e-w route.

Tashman

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

Tashman said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

I miss my Exeter-Paris flights... 20 mins cycle to the airport, 5 mins max for security. Kind of surprised no-one's yet replaced Flybe, as Bristol is a PITA in comparison for the SW peninsula.

It didn't make enough money, end of. I've spent a lot of time at Exeter Airport and it's never seemed busy, just holiday routes in the summer and particular routes within the UK. The Edinburgh flight always still seems busy. So busy in fact that Loganair routinely have to delay it a couple of hours to squeeze everyone on.

And tbh it really ought to be easier to get to Paris by train.

From the SW you'd have to train it to Waterloo / Paddington, then across town to Kings Cross, then Eurostar it to Paris.
That's a tonne more hassle than flying from Exe, BRS, BOH or SOU

Rail works if your are in or around London.
Travelling cross country without going via London is a mare by rail and will probably involve mutiple changes of train.
I guess that's the same issue the northern cities have, they are not connected well by rail.

Well yes, that's why I said ought.

The SW will never get better connections to London. Well, certainly not before the north and its much bigger population, and I can't see that happening in my lifetime, such is the chaos of HS2. No-one's going to announce a big infrastructure programme for decades after that. They can't even get round to completing the dual-carriagewaying of the A303, and that's been 'on the cards' for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66201424

That's a start. Next, the Blackdown Hills...

Can someone explain to me the controversy over this? I would have thought that a tunnel would remove the relentless backdrop of traffic (often tailbacks) near Stonehenge, and thereby improve the site.

Why don't locals want that?

Damage to a World Heritage Site I believe. I think the main argument is the tunnel needs to extend further to avoid impact on the full extent of the WHS but even at its current length is a waste of money so should be scrapped.

This. There are Neolithic and Bronze Age structures everywhere you turn in that part of Wiltshire. Stonehenge is just the best known bit of the landscape. Essentially the same design has already been blocked by the High Court. The DfT has just tweaked their plans to justify another go. There's also no funding available.

What's the alternative? (not a rhetorical question).

At some point the South-West needs decent access to the rest of the UK.

That's the M5. The problem in the SW is getting to the M5, because it ends at Exeter and leaves quite a bit of the UK without a motorway. The A38 is dual until Plymouth but is badly engineered and this reduces capacity, and the A30 is excellent for parking on in the summer.

Objectively I'd you did want to funnel more traffic into these bottlenecks, you'd extend west from the M27 through the New Forest.

So take your pick. World Heritage site, or National Park?

Would also be nice if they uprated the A27 along the south coast towns too into at least dual carriageway, but has same issues with the South Downs Nastional park

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

Tashman said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

I miss my Exeter-Paris flights... 20 mins cycle to the airport, 5 mins max for security. Kind of surprised no-one's yet replaced Flybe, as Bristol is a PITA in comparison for the SW peninsula.

It didn't make enough money, end of. I've spent a lot of time at Exeter Airport and it's never seemed busy, just holiday routes in the summer and particular routes within the UK. The Edinburgh flight always still seems busy. So busy in fact that Loganair routinely have to delay it a couple of hours to squeeze everyone on.

And tbh it really ought to be easier to get to Paris by train.

From the SW you'd have to train it to Waterloo / Paddington, then across town to Kings Cross, then Eurostar it to Paris.
That's a tonne more hassle than flying from Exe, BRS, BOH or SOU

Rail works if your are in or around London.
Travelling cross country without going via London is a mare by rail and will probably involve mutiple changes of train.
I guess that's the same issue the northern cities have, they are not connected well by rail.

Well yes, that's why I said ought.

The SW will never get better connections to London. Well, certainly not before the north and its much bigger population, and I can't see that happening in my lifetime, such is the chaos of HS2. No-one's going to announce a big infrastructure programme for decades after that. They can't even get round to completing the dual-carriagewaying of the A303, and that's been 'on the cards' for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66201424

That's a start. Next, the Blackdown Hills...

Can someone explain to me the controversy over this? I would have thought that a tunnel would remove the relentless backdrop of traffic (often tailbacks) near Stonehenge, and thereby improve the site.

Why don't locals want that?

Damage to a World Heritage Site I believe. I think the main argument is the tunnel needs to extend further to avoid impact on the full extent of the WHS but even at its current length is a waste of money so should be scrapped.

This. There are Neolithic and Bronze Age structures everywhere you turn in that part of Wiltshire. Stonehenge is just the best known bit of the landscape. Essentially the same design has already been blocked by the High Court. The DfT has just tweaked their plans to justify another go. There's also no funding available.

What's the alternative? (not a rhetorical question).

At some point the South-West needs decent access to the rest of the UK.

M5M4 + 2 railway lines into two different London termini. Connections to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter.

Not aware that the small section of non-dual carriageway between Amesbury and Wincanton is what is really holding the SW back.

First.Aspect

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

Tashman said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

I miss my Exeter-Paris flights... 20 mins cycle to the airport, 5 mins max for security. Kind of surprised no-one's yet replaced Flybe, as Bristol is a PITA in comparison for the SW peninsula.

It didn't make enough money, end of. I've spent a lot of time at Exeter Airport and it's never seemed busy, just holiday routes in the summer and particular routes within the UK. The Edinburgh flight always still seems busy. So busy in fact that Loganair routinely have to delay it a couple of hours to squeeze everyone on.

And tbh it really ought to be easier to get to Paris by train.

From the SW you'd have to train it to Waterloo / Paddington, then across town to Kings Cross, then Eurostar it to Paris.
That's a tonne more hassle than flying from Exe, BRS, BOH or SOU

Rail works if your are in or around London.
Travelling cross country without going via London is a mare by rail and will probably involve mutiple changes of train.
I guess that's the same issue the northern cities have, they are not connected well by rail.

Well yes, that's why I said ought.

The SW will never get better connections to London. Well, certainly not before the north and its much bigger population, and I can't see that happening in my lifetime, such is the chaos of HS2. No-one's going to announce a big infrastructure programme for decades after that. They can't even get round to completing the dual-carriagewaying of the A303, and that's been 'on the cards' for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66201424

That's a start. Next, the Blackdown Hills...

Can someone explain to me the controversy over this? I would have thought that a tunnel would remove the relentless backdrop of traffic (often tailbacks) near Stonehenge, and thereby improve the site.

Why don't locals want that?

Damage to a World Heritage Site I believe. I think the main argument is the tunnel needs to extend further to avoid impact on the full extent of the WHS but even at its current length is a waste of money so should be scrapped.

This. There are Neolithic and Bronze Age structures everywhere you turn in that part of Wiltshire. Stonehenge is just the best known bit of the landscape. Essentially the same design has already been blocked by the High Court. The DfT has just tweaked their plans to justify another go. There's also no funding available.

What's the alternative? (not a rhetorical question).

At some point the South-West needs decent access to the rest of the UK.

M5M4 + 2 railway lines into two different London termini. Connections to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter.

Not aware that the small section of non-dual carriageway between Amesbury and Wincanton is what is really holding the SW back.

Indeed, it's the local accent mainly.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

Tashman said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

I miss my Exeter-Paris flights... 20 mins cycle to the airport, 5 mins max for security. Kind of surprised no-one's yet replaced Flybe, as Bristol is a PITA in comparison for the SW peninsula.

It didn't make enough money, end of. I've spent a lot of time at Exeter Airport and it's never seemed busy, just holiday routes in the summer and particular routes within the UK. The Edinburgh flight always still seems busy. So busy in fact that Loganair routinely have to delay it a couple of hours to squeeze everyone on.

And tbh it really ought to be easier to get to Paris by train.

From the SW you'd have to train it to Waterloo / Paddington, then across town to Kings Cross, then Eurostar it to Paris.
That's a tonne more hassle than flying from Exe, BRS, BOH or SOU

Rail works if your are in or around London.
Travelling cross country without going via London is a mare by rail and will probably involve mutiple changes of train.
I guess that's the same issue the northern cities have, they are not connected well by rail.

Well yes, that's why I said ought.

The SW will never get better connections to London. Well, certainly not before the north and its much bigger population, and I can't see that happening in my lifetime, such is the chaos of HS2. No-one's going to announce a big infrastructure programme for decades after that. They can't even get round to completing the dual-carriagewaying of the A303, and that's been 'on the cards' for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66201424

That's a start. Next, the Blackdown Hills...

Can someone explain to me the controversy over this? I would have thought that a tunnel would remove the relentless backdrop of traffic (often tailbacks) near Stonehenge, and thereby improve the site.

Why don't locals want that?

Damage to a World Heritage Site I believe. I think the main argument is the tunnel needs to extend further to avoid impact on the full extent of the WHS but even at its current length is a waste of money so should be scrapped.

This. There are Neolithic and Bronze Age structures everywhere you turn in that part of Wiltshire. Stonehenge is just the best known bit of the landscape. Essentially the same design has already been blocked by the High Court. The DfT has just tweaked their plans to justify another go. There's also no funding available.

What's the alternative? (not a rhetorical question).

At some point the South-West needs decent access to the rest of the UK.

Getting people out of cars and onto public transport

pangolin

Also never really understood why the M5 is so terrible past Bristol. People seem to hit a hill and slow from 70 to 40.

First.Aspect

pangolin said:

Also never really understood why the M5 is so terrible past Bristol. People seem to hit a hill and slow from 70 to 40.

Caravans.

pangolin

First.Aspect said:

pangolin said:

Also never really understood why the M5 is so terrible past Bristol. People seem to hit a hill and slow from 70 to 40.

Caravans.

I get there are some vehicles that can't maintain 60-70 up a hill, but I'm surprised there are enough of them that it grinds to a halt so consistently.

First.Aspect

pangolin said:

First.Aspect said:

pangolin said:

Also never really understood why the M5 is so terrible past Bristol. People seem to hit a hill and slow from 70 to 40.

Caravans.

I get there are some vehicles that can't maintain 60-70 up a hill, but I'm surprised there are enough of them that it grinds to a halt so consistently.

I'm surprised as well, but there are millions of people called Derek or Nigel in the UK, you know.

briantrumpet

And at least 50% of motorway drivers who don't know how to use three lanes correctly, whether the motorway is relatively empty (sit in middle lane) or really busy (queue up in outside two lanes, leaving the inside lane virtually empty).

rjsterry

pangolin said:

First.Aspect said:

pangolin said:

Also never really understood why the M5 is so terrible past Bristol. People seem to hit a hill and slow from 70 to 40.

Caravans.

I get there are some vehicles that can't maintain 60-70 up a hill, but I'm surprised there are enough of them that it grinds to a halt so consistently.

There are just a LOT of people going on holiday.

rick_chasey

briantrumpet said:

And at least 50% of motorway drivers who don't know how to use three lanes correctly, whether the motorway is relatively empty (sit in middle lane) or really busy (queue up in outside two lanes, leaving the inside lane virtually empty).

Have given up being a good citizen and I just keep a steady 70 and just undertake the middle laners rather than going across all the lanes. Just vigilant when I pass.

Dorset_Boy

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

Tashman said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

I miss my Exeter-Paris flights... 20 mins cycle to the airport, 5 mins max for security. Kind of surprised no-one's yet replaced Flybe, as Bristol is a PITA in comparison for the SW peninsula.

It didn't make enough money, end of. I've spent a lot of time at Exeter Airport and it's never seemed busy, just holiday routes in the summer and particular routes within the UK. The Edinburgh flight always still seems busy. So busy in fact that Loganair routinely have to delay it a couple of hours to squeeze everyone on.

And tbh it really ought to be easier to get to Paris by train.

From the SW you'd have to train it to Waterloo / Paddington, then across town to Kings Cross, then Eurostar it to Paris.
That's a tonne more hassle than flying from Exe, BRS, BOH or SOU

Rail works if your are in or around London.
Travelling cross country without going via London is a mare by rail and will probably involve mutiple changes of train.
I guess that's the same issue the northern cities have, they are not connected well by rail.

Well yes, that's why I said ought.

The SW will never get better connections to London. Well, certainly not before the north and its much bigger population, and I can't see that happening in my lifetime, such is the chaos of HS2. No-one's going to announce a big infrastructure programme for decades after that. They can't even get round to completing the dual-carriagewaying of the A303, and that's been 'on the cards' for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66201424

That's a start. Next, the Blackdown Hills...

Can someone explain to me the controversy over this? I would have thought that a tunnel would remove the relentless backdrop of traffic (often tailbacks) near Stonehenge, and thereby improve the site.

Why don't locals want that?

Damage to a World Heritage Site I believe. I think the main argument is the tunnel needs to extend further to avoid impact on the full extent of the WHS but even at its current length is a waste of money so should be scrapped.

This. There are Neolithic and Bronze Age structures everywhere you turn in that part of Wiltshire. Stonehenge is just the best known bit of the landscape. Essentially the same design has already been blocked by the High Court. The DfT has just tweaked their plans to justify another go. There's also no funding available.

What's the alternative? (not a rhetorical question).

At some point the South-West needs decent access to the rest of the UK.

M5M4 + 2 railway lines into two different London termini. Connections to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter.

Not aware that the small section of non-dual carriageway between Amesbury and Wincanton is what is really holding the SW back.

The 'connections' to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter, or even Bristol are shite.
M4/M5 has the issue of Bristol congestion so is not a favoured route to get to Exeter and beyond. The M5 around Avonmouth is a car park a lot of the time.

The tunnel solution at Stonehenge is the only sensible option, and will be cheap in tunnelling terms as it is a cut and cover job. It will impact the World Heritage site positively, in the same way the redevelopment of the rec in Bath will.
The A360 / A303 junction needs to be sorted properly as part of it all. The newish roundabout hasn't worked well at all.

Upgrading the A303 will benefit the likes of Salisbury, Yeovil, Honiton etc, and other towns just off the route.

I also agree the A27 along the coast needs a serious upgrade.

rjsterry

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

Tashman said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

I miss my Exeter-Paris flights... 20 mins cycle to the airport, 5 mins max for security. Kind of surprised no-one's yet replaced Flybe, as Bristol is a PITA in comparison for the SW peninsula.

It didn't make enough money, end of. I've spent a lot of time at Exeter Airport and it's never seemed busy, just holiday routes in the summer and particular routes within the UK. The Edinburgh flight always still seems busy. So busy in fact that Loganair routinely have to delay it a couple of hours to squeeze everyone on.

And tbh it really ought to be easier to get to Paris by train.

From the SW you'd have to train it to Waterloo / Paddington, then across town to Kings Cross, then Eurostar it to Paris.
That's a tonne more hassle than flying from Exe, BRS, BOH or SOU

Rail works if your are in or around London.
Travelling cross country without going via London is a mare by rail and will probably involve mutiple changes of train.
I guess that's the same issue the northern cities have, they are not connected well by rail.

Well yes, that's why I said ought.

The SW will never get better connections to London. Well, certainly not before the north and its much bigger population, and I can't see that happening in my lifetime, such is the chaos of HS2. No-one's going to announce a big infrastructure programme for decades after that. They can't even get round to completing the dual-carriagewaying of the A303, and that's been 'on the cards' for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66201424

That's a start. Next, the Blackdown Hills...

Can someone explain to me the controversy over this? I would have thought that a tunnel would remove the relentless backdrop of traffic (often tailbacks) near Stonehenge, and thereby improve the site.

Why don't locals want that?

Damage to a World Heritage Site I believe. I think the main argument is the tunnel needs to extend further to avoid impact on the full extent of the WHS but even at its current length is a waste of money so should be scrapped.

This. There are Neolithic and Bronze Age structures everywhere you turn in that part of Wiltshire. Stonehenge is just the best known bit of the landscape. Essentially the same design has already been blocked by the High Court. The DfT has just tweaked their plans to justify another go. There's also no funding available.

What's the alternative? (not a rhetorical question).

At some point the South-West needs decent access to the rest of the UK.

M5M4 + 2 railway lines into two different London termini. Connections to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter.

Not aware that the small section of non-dual carriageway between Amesbury and Wincanton is what is really holding the SW back.

The 'connections' to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter, or even Bristol are shite.
M4/M5 has the issue of Bristol congestion so is not a favoured route to get to Exeter and beyond. The M5 around Avonmouth is a car park a lot of the time.

The tunnel solution at Stonehenge is the only sensible option, and will be cheap in tunnelling terms as it is a cut and cover job. It will impact the World Heritage site positively, in the same way the redevelopment of the rec in Bath will.
The A360 / A303 junction needs to be sorted properly as part of it all. The newish roundabout hasn't worked well at all.

Upgrading the A303 will benefit the likes of Salisbury, Yeovil, Honiton etc, and other towns just off the route.

I also agree the A27 along the coast needs a serious upgrade.

Honiton? Seriously?

Not sure what you are expecting TBH. I was describing connections from Devon. Obviously if you are closer to Southampton then it's more difficult. Part of that isolation is what attracted you to the place. If you want somewhere really well connected, you can live in Almondsbury or Slough. I'd guess there's a reason why you don't want to live there.

If the tunnel were cut and cover it essentially destroys the thing it is trying to avoid so you'd be better off just widening the road.

As demonstrated by the M5, if you build bigger roads they just fill up with more cars.

First.Aspect

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

Tashman said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

I miss my Exeter-Paris flights... 20 mins cycle to the airport, 5 mins max for security. Kind of surprised no-one's yet replaced Flybe, as Bristol is a PITA in comparison for the SW peninsula.

It didn't make enough money, end of. I've spent a lot of time at Exeter Airport and it's never seemed busy, just holiday routes in the summer and particular routes within the UK. The Edinburgh flight always still seems busy. So busy in fact that Loganair routinely have to delay it a couple of hours to squeeze everyone on.

And tbh it really ought to be easier to get to Paris by train.

From the SW you'd have to train it to Waterloo / Paddington, then across town to Kings Cross, then Eurostar it to Paris.
That's a tonne more hassle than flying from Exe, BRS, BOH or SOU

Rail works if your are in or around London.
Travelling cross country without going via London is a mare by rail and will probably involve mutiple changes of train.
I guess that's the same issue the northern cities have, they are not connected well by rail.

Well yes, that's why I said ought.

The SW will never get better connections to London. Well, certainly not before the north and its much bigger population, and I can't see that happening in my lifetime, such is the chaos of HS2. No-one's going to announce a big infrastructure programme for decades after that. They can't even get round to completing the dual-carriagewaying of the A303, and that's been 'on the cards' for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66201424

That's a start. Next, the Blackdown Hills...

Can someone explain to me the controversy over this? I would have thought that a tunnel would remove the relentless backdrop of traffic (often tailbacks) near Stonehenge, and thereby improve the site.

Why don't locals want that?

Damage to a World Heritage Site I believe. I think the main argument is the tunnel needs to extend further to avoid impact on the full extent of the WHS but even at its current length is a waste of money so should be scrapped.

This. There are Neolithic and Bronze Age structures everywhere you turn in that part of Wiltshire. Stonehenge is just the best known bit of the landscape. Essentially the same design has already been blocked by the High Court. The DfT has just tweaked their plans to justify another go. There's also no funding available.

What's the alternative? (not a rhetorical question).

At some point the South-West needs decent access to the rest of the UK.

M5M4 + 2 railway lines into two different London termini. Connections to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter.

Not aware that the small section of non-dual carriageway between Amesbury and Wincanton is what is really holding the SW back.

The 'connections' to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter, or even Bristol are shite.
M4/M5 has the issue of Bristol congestion so is not a favoured route to get to Exeter and beyond. The M5 around Avonmouth is a car park a lot of the time.

The tunnel solution at Stonehenge is the only sensible option, and will be cheap in tunnelling terms as it is a cut and cover job. It will impact the World Heritage site positively, in the same way the redevelopment of the rec in Bath will.
The A360 / A303 junction needs to be sorted properly as part of it all. The newish roundabout hasn't worked well at all.

Upgrading the A303 will benefit the likes of Salisbury, Yeovil, Honiton etc, and other towns just off the route.

I also agree the A27 along the coast needs a serious upgrade.

You do realise that if you do make upgrades like these, they will attract traffic and immediately get you back to square 1? Also, it will expand the london commuter belt and push up prices even further.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

Tashman said:

briantrumpet said:

First.Aspect said:

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

briantrumpet said:

I miss my Exeter-Paris flights... 20 mins cycle to the airport, 5 mins max for security. Kind of surprised no-one's yet replaced Flybe, as Bristol is a PITA in comparison for the SW peninsula.

It didn't make enough money, end of. I've spent a lot of time at Exeter Airport and it's never seemed busy, just holiday routes in the summer and particular routes within the UK. The Edinburgh flight always still seems busy. So busy in fact that Loganair routinely have to delay it a couple of hours to squeeze everyone on.

And tbh it really ought to be easier to get to Paris by train.

From the SW you'd have to train it to Waterloo / Paddington, then across town to Kings Cross, then Eurostar it to Paris.
That's a tonne more hassle than flying from Exe, BRS, BOH or SOU

Rail works if your are in or around London.
Travelling cross country without going via London is a mare by rail and will probably involve mutiple changes of train.
I guess that's the same issue the northern cities have, they are not connected well by rail.

Well yes, that's why I said ought.

The SW will never get better connections to London. Well, certainly not before the north and its much bigger population, and I can't see that happening in my lifetime, such is the chaos of HS2. No-one's going to announce a big infrastructure programme for decades after that. They can't even get round to completing the dual-carriagewaying of the A303, and that's been 'on the cards' for decades.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66201424

That's a start. Next, the Blackdown Hills...

Can someone explain to me the controversy over this? I would have thought that a tunnel would remove the relentless backdrop of traffic (often tailbacks) near Stonehenge, and thereby improve the site.

Why don't locals want that?

Damage to a World Heritage Site I believe. I think the main argument is the tunnel needs to extend further to avoid impact on the full extent of the WHS but even at its current length is a waste of money so should be scrapped.

This. There are Neolithic and Bronze Age structures everywhere you turn in that part of Wiltshire. Stonehenge is just the best known bit of the landscape. Essentially the same design has already been blocked by the High Court. The DfT has just tweaked their plans to justify another go. There's also no funding available.

What's the alternative? (not a rhetorical question).

At some point the South-West needs decent access to the rest of the UK.

M5M4 + 2 railway lines into two different London termini. Connections to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter.

Not aware that the small section of non-dual carriageway between Amesbury and Wincanton is what is really holding the SW back.

The 'connections' to Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and Edinburgh from Exeter, or even Bristol are shite.
M4/M5 has the issue of Bristol congestion so is not a favoured route to get to Exeter and beyond. The M5 around Avonmouth is a car park a lot of the time.

The tunnel solution at Stonehenge is the only sensible option, and will be cheap in tunnelling terms as it is a cut and cover job. It will impact the World Heritage site positively, in the same way the redevelopment of the rec in Bath will.
The A360 / A303 junction needs to be sorted properly as part of it all. The newish roundabout hasn't worked well at all.

Upgrading the A303 will benefit the likes of Salisbury, Yeovil, Honiton etc, and other towns just off the route.

I also agree the A27 along the coast needs a serious upgrade.

You do realise that if you do make upgrades like these, they will attract traffic and immediately get you back to square 1? Also, it will expand the london commuter belt and push up prices even further.

I do appreciate the "widening the road doesn't improve congestion" argument, but there is also a valid argument that improving the road infrastructure in general can alleviate a lot of the problems (there is a reasons motorways work better than single track A roads), especially if it is also accompanied with appropriate expansion of other forms of transport (i.e. public transport)

Dorset_Boy

@rjsterry @First.Aspect Well let's just not both to upgrade any infrastructure then.

What are your suggestions for improving transport links to the southwest then?
Building some new railway lines or improving the capacity of those existing lines isn't going to happen.

Amazing connections aren't required, just some basic ones without severe bottlenecks.

Sure you could just dual the road past Stonehenge (which would be better than the current situation), but part of the issue is the road can be seen, and removing it from sight will enhance the environment around Stonehenge.

People already commute to London from Bournemouth, Poole, Salisbury, Gillingham, and further afield.
DfLers have already distorted house prices anyway.

The other road that needs a serious upgrade is the A34, being the only major route north from Portsmouth, Southampton and Poole docks.

First.Aspect

I'm going to venture that the a303 upgrade doesn't include any concession to active travel whatsoever? Or any other form of transport?

The road there doesn't have any inherent bottlenecks as far as I remember, just a lot of traffic trying to get to Stonehenge.

Dorset_Boy

First.Aspect said:

I'm going to venture that the a303 upgrade doesn't include any concession to active travel whatsoever? Or any other form of transport?

The road there doesn't have any inherent bottlenecks as far as I remember, just a lot of traffic trying to get to Stonehenge.

It goes from dual to single just after the Amesbury roundabout. That is a huge bottleneck. Perhaps you have only been through there at nightime?!!! Try it on a Friday evening and report back!

There's then another section of dual, then single than dual then single carriageway a few miles further on which doesn't help traffic flow, and some of the junctions (eg A350) are on one side of the road only, so need half the traffic to cross the oncoming traffic.

First.Aspect

Dorset_Boy said:

First.Aspect said:

I'm going to venture that the a303 upgrade doesn't include any concession to active travel whatsoever? Or any other form of transport?

The road there doesn't have any inherent bottlenecks as far as I remember, just a lot of traffic trying to get to Stonehenge.

It goes from dual to single just after the Amesbury roundabout. That is a huge bottleneck. Perhaps you have only been through there at nightime?!!! Try it on a Friday evening and report back!

There's then another section of dual, then single than dual then single carriageway a few miles further on which doesn't help traffic flow, and some of the junctions (eg A350) are on one side of the road only, so need half the traffic to cross the oncoming traffic.

So what's your solution, dual the whole thing, or just move the bottlenecks?

Its a vert very long time since I used that route, tbf, bur was usually on a Friday afternoon. Its not a motorway so I tended to use the m4/m5 instead.

Pross

Dorset_Boy said:

@rjsterry @First.Aspect Well let's just not both to upgrade any infrastructure then.

What are your suggestions for improving transport links to the southwest then?
Building some new railway lines or improving the capacity of those existing lines isn't going to happen.

Amazing connections aren't required, just some basic ones without severe bottlenecks.

Sure you could just dual the road past Stonehenge (which would be better than the current situation), but part of the issue is the road can be seen, and removing it from sight will enhance the environment around Stonehenge.

People already commute to London from Bournemouth, Poole, Salisbury, Gillingham, and further afield.
DfLers have already distorted house prices anyway.

The other road that needs a serious upgrade is the A34, being the only major route north from Portsmouth, Southampton and Poole docks.

The A34 is pretty good these days. It can get frustrating with trucks overtaking at 0.5mph faster than the truck in lane 1 but in general the traffic moves pretty well other than maybe n the approaches to the M3 junction at peak hours. I had a job in Bournemouth a few years ago and had to go down for regular site meetings. I made the mistake on one occasion of looking on Google Maps and deciding that as the A36 / A350 option was showing as the same time as the A34 / M27 / A31 and was 40 miles shorter I would go that way. I ended up so late to the meeting it was almost over and the client refused to pay for the time / travel costs.

Getting anywhere in East Somerset / South Wiltshire and most of Dorset is a PITA though and I agree that the M4 / M5 option isn't a very good one but I'm not sure the A303 upgrade helps massively either as it is the connections to the major routes that are the biggest issue. The A35 / A31 being so rubbish doesn't help either.

rjsterry

Dorset_Boy said:

@rjsterry @First.Aspect Well let's just not both to upgrade any infrastructure then.

What are your suggestions for improving transport links to the southwest then?
Building some new railway lines or improving the capacity of those existing lines isn't going to happen.

Amazing connections aren't required, just some basic ones without severe bottlenecks.

Sure you could just dual the road past Stonehenge (which would be better than the current situation), but part of the issue is the road can be seen, and removing it from sight will enhance the environment around Stonehenge.

People already commute to London from Bournemouth, Poole, Salisbury, Gillingham, and further afield.
DfLers have already distorted house prices anyway.

The other road that needs a serious upgrade is the A34, being the only major route north from Portsmouth, Southampton and Poole docks.

I visit East Devon fairly regularly via the A303 and have done for the last 15 years + I grew up near Bristol, so I'm not unfamiliar. There are frequently hold-ups on the already dual carriageway sections well to the west of Amesbury. Yes it's a bottleneck by SH, but we are kidding ourselves if we think removing this alone will radically transform journey times.

The argument is that sticking the road in a tunnel does not enhance the environment as it destroys the very thing you are trying to protect. It's not about it looking pretty.

Dorset_Boy

Dual it all the way from Basingstoke to the M5.
It's pretty good as far as Amesbury, but too many single sections from there on.

Dorset_Boy

Pross said:

Dorset_Boy said:

@rjsterry @First.Aspect Well let's just not both to upgrade any infrastructure then.

What are your suggestions for improving transport links to the southwest then?
Building some new railway lines or improving the capacity of those existing lines isn't going to happen.

Amazing connections aren't required, just some basic ones without severe bottlenecks.

Sure you could just dual the road past Stonehenge (which would be better than the current situation), but part of the issue is the road can be seen, and removing it from sight will enhance the environment around Stonehenge.

People already commute to London from Bournemouth, Poole, Salisbury, Gillingham, and further afield.
DfLers have already distorted house prices anyway.

The other road that needs a serious upgrade is the A34, being the only major route north from Portsmouth, Southampton and Poole docks.

The A34 is pretty good these days. It can get frustrating with trucks overtaking at 0.5mph faster than the truck in lane 1 but in general the traffic moves pretty well other than maybe n the approaches to the M3 junction at peak hours. I had a job in Bournemouth a few years ago and had to go down for regular site meetings. I made the mistake on one occasion of looking on Google Maps and deciding that as the A36 / A350 option was showing as the same time as the A34 / M27 / A31 and was 40 miles shorter I would go that way. I ended up so late to the meeting it was almost over and the client refused to pay for the time / travel costs.

Getting anywhere in East Somerset / South Wiltshire and most of Dorset is a PITA though and I agree that the M4 / M5 option isn't a very good one but I'm not sure the A303 upgrade helps massively either as it is the connections to the major routes that are the biggest issue. The A35 / A31 being so rubbish doesn't help either.

A350 upgrades are scuppered by the Peoples Republic of Melbury Abbas!

Pross

Back on topic, I was reading about an appeal decision yesterday where the developer successfully appeal a planning refusal for 130 odd houses. The site had been allocated in a neighbourhood plan, the process brought in through localism allowing communities to decide where they want development located in their area, so effectively the local residents chose it themselves as a site for housing and was allocated for up to 150 houses. An application was made which included more than the necessary number of affordable houses but some residents objected, Councillors jumped on the bandwagon as they do and the local MP got involved. The application was rejected on numerous spurious grounds that the developer addressed but it went to appeal where the appellant won (they'll probably get costs as well which those loacls will be paying through their Council Tax). Unfortunately, in the meantime the appellant has gone bust with these sorts of delays no doubt playing a big part in cashflow problems.

Some were previously saying that the system favours the rich developers but this is just one of many examples of the opposite. Locals were consulted throughout and literally chose the proposed site themselves through a consultation process, populist politicians then backed a few objectors and spineless officers failed to explain that there were no reasonable grounds to refuse the application. Hundreds of people have lost their jobs at the developer that went bust (not just due to this particular case but it is a contributory factor) and whilst the houses will eventually get built it will have delayed them becoming available and potentially providing accommodation to dozens of families waiting for social housing with the local council tax payers footing the bill. Everyone loses.

Pross

They’re going to build a million new homes now. The inconsistency of stated targets and actions is staggering.

rjsterry

Pross said:

They’re going to build a million new homes now. The inconsistency of stated targets and actions is staggering.

Laughed out loud when I heard that. Apparently their going to reform the planning system as well (no, really they mean it this time).

Pross

Posted in the wrong thread earlier but they're going to do this in cities so they protect the Greenbelt. They're going to achieve it by allowing empty shops to be more easily converted and, somewhat bizarrely, making it easier to get planning for extensions and loft conversions. If they want to build a million more houses in the cities they'd be better CPOing large properties and flattening them to create greater density (or building on public open spaces within the city) which I'm sure will prove highly popular.