The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

Pross · July 2023

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Seems fairly straightforward to me, I'm not entirely sure why there is so much puzzle around it.
Because they need to win an election, so it is not what their core supporters want that really matters, it's what the centre wants.

This seems to be something they completely miss with all their policies at the moment. Everything seems based on keeping their core rather than keeping the voters they gained last time or attracting others.

kingstongraham · July 2023

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Seems fairly straightforward to me, I'm not entirely sure why there is so much puzzle around it.
Because they need to win an election, so it is not what their core supporters want that really matters, it's what the centre wants.
I dunno. This to me seems like defence manoeuvres to avoid getting spanked in naturally Tory seats.

The main theme in the election is everyone hates the Tories, including Tory voters. So those Tory voters tend to stay at home.

So sunak’s just trying to give them something to go out and vote for.

I’d be curious to see the voting patterns of those who live in LTNs but I bet is massively not Tory, regardless of their traffic policies.

I bet a lot of natural Tories already live in LTNs without even considering it.

rick_chasey · July 2023

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Seems fairly straightforward to me, I'm not entirely sure why there is so much puzzle around it.
Because they need to win an election, so it is not what their core supporters want that really matters, it's what the centre wants.
I dunno. This to me seems like defence manoeuvres to avoid getting spanked in naturally Tory seats.

The main theme in the election is everyone hates the Tories, including Tory voters. So those Tory voters tend to stay at home.

So sunak’s just trying to give them something to go out and vote for.

I’d be curious to see the voting patterns of those who live in LTNs but I bet is massively not Tory, regardless of their traffic policies.
I bet a lot of natural Tories already live in LTNs without even considering it.

You think? I'd be surprised but I have absolutely not data to support it other than LTNs are likely to be in urban areas and they largely vote labour.

Pross · July 2023

As someone else said, we've had LTNs for decades they just haven't been called that. There are loads of areas where streets running parallel to main arteries were turned into culs-du-sac with a few kerbs and bollards in the middle or at the end (side streets off City Road in Cardiff spring to mind for me). However, if you do it now with some soft landscaping instead of hard engineering it is suddenly a major issue.

kingstongraham · July 2023

rick_chasey said:

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Seems fairly straightforward to me, I'm not entirely sure why there is so much puzzle around it.
Because they need to win an election, so it is not what their core supporters want that really matters, it's what the centre wants.
I dunno. This to me seems like defence manoeuvres to avoid getting spanked in naturally Tory seats.

The main theme in the election is everyone hates the Tories, including Tory voters. So those Tory voters tend to stay at home.

So sunak’s just trying to give them something to go out and vote for.

I’d be curious to see the voting patterns of those who live in LTNs but I bet is massively not Tory, regardless of their traffic policies.
I bet a lot of natural Tories already live in LTNs without even considering it.
You think? I'd be surprised but I have absolutely not data to support it other than LTNs are likely to be in urban areas and they largely vote labour.

I live in one and our councillors used to be all Conservative until 2014 and are now all Lib Dem.

All I meant was that most residential areas in suburbs and towns are built to discourage through traffic on most roads. It shouldn't be controversial.

rjsterry · July 2023

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:
Maybe one for the irony thread, but if Sadiq wants to sort out the places in London with the dirtiest air that millions are exposed to on a regular basis, maybe he should look a bit closer to home:
https://envirotech-online.com/news/air-monitoring/6/breaking-news/whats-worse-for-pollution-london-underground-or-overground/51368

Quote:
According to a study conducted by King’s College London, air quality in the Tube is approximately 15 times more dangerous than that above ground. For the millions of people who use the underground to get to work every day, that’s quite a concerning statistic

I wonder why he isn't even mentioning this, let alone doing something about it? It can't be because he's anti-car, of course...
Whatabout...?
Question of priories.

Or maybe another case of leftie hypocrisy?
Priories? Let's leave monasteries out of this.
That Cromwell was a bit of a Leftie though with his ideas of reform and a commonwealth.

Are you muddling Thomas and Oliver?

rjsterry · July 2023

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Seems fairly straightforward to me, I'm not entirely sure why there is so much puzzle around it.
Because they need to win an election, so it is not what their core supporters want that really matters, it's what the centre wants.
I dunno. This to me seems like defence manoeuvres to avoid getting spanked in naturally Tory seats.

The main theme in the election is everyone hates the Tories, including Tory voters. So those Tory voters tend to stay at home.

So sunak’s just trying to give them something to go out and vote for.

I’d be curious to see the voting patterns of those who live in LTNs but I bet is massively not Tory, regardless of their traffic policies.
I bet a lot of natural Tories already live in LTNs without even considering it.
You think? I'd be surprised but I have absolutely not data to support it other than LTNs are likely to be in urban areas and they largely vote labour.
I live in one and our councillors used to be all Conservative until 2014 and are now all Lib Dem.

All I meant was that most residential areas in suburbs and towns are built to discourage through traffic on most roads. It shouldn't be controversial.

Residential streets have been planned to generally discourage through traffic since at least the 1930s. It's just a new name for cul de sacs.

Stevo_666 · July 2023

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:
Maybe one for the irony thread, but if Sadiq wants to sort out the places in London with the dirtiest air that millions are exposed to on a regular basis, maybe he should look a bit closer to home:
https://envirotech-online.com/news/air-monitoring/6/breaking-news/whats-worse-for-pollution-london-underground-or-overground/51368

Quote:
According to a study conducted by King’s College London, air quality in the Tube is approximately 15 times more dangerous than that above ground. For the millions of people who use the underground to get to work every day, that’s quite a concerning statistic

I wonder why he isn't even mentioning this, let alone doing something about it? It can't be because he's anti-car, of course...
Whatabout...?
Question of priories.

Or maybe another case of leftie hypocrisy?
It's a totally separate issue, with particles of a different composition and different causes.

Where is there support for '15 times more dangerous', incidentally?

Have a look at the link I posted then show me any counter evidence you have.

mully79 · July 2023

Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.

Stevo_666 · July 2023

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.

Remind me not to visit Wales any time soon. Anyone who has to drive that slowly everywhere to be 'safe' should be made to take the bus - which should cheer Rick up no end.

rjsterry · July 2023

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:
Maybe one for the irony thread, but if Sadiq wants to sort out the places in London with the dirtiest air that millions are exposed to on a regular basis, maybe he should look a bit closer to home:
https://envirotech-online.com/news/air-monitoring/6/breaking-news/whats-worse-for-pollution-london-underground-or-overground/51368

Quote:
According to a study conducted by King’s College London, air quality in the Tube is approximately 15 times more dangerous than that above ground. For the millions of people who use the underground to get to work every day, that’s quite a concerning statistic

I wonder why he isn't even mentioning this, let alone doing something about it? It can't be because he's anti-car, of course...
Whatabout...?
Question of priories.

Or maybe another case of leftie hypocrisy?
It's a totally separate issue, with particles of a different composition and different causes.

Where is there support for '15 times more dangerous', incidentally?

Have a look at the link I posted then show me any counter evidence you have.

There isn't any evidence in the link. It states that the air in the London underground has higher levels of PM2.5 than other underground metro systems around the world. It also states that London's air quality above ground is worse than many other cities. But there are no actual figures published to be able to draw any conclusions.

First.Aspect · July 2023

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:
Maybe one for the irony thread, but if Sadiq wants to sort out the places in London with the dirtiest air that millions are exposed to on a regular basis, maybe he should look a bit closer to home:
https://envirotech-online.com/news/air-monitoring/6/breaking-news/whats-worse-for-pollution-london-underground-or-overground/51368

Quote:
According to a study conducted by King’s College London, air quality in the Tube is approximately 15 times more dangerous than that above ground. For the millions of people who use the underground to get to work every day, that’s quite a concerning statistic

I wonder why he isn't even mentioning this, let alone doing something about it? It can't be because he's anti-car, of course...
Whatabout...?
Question of priories.

Or maybe another case of leftie hypocrisy?
It's a totally separate issue, with particles of a different composition and different causes.

Where is there support for '15 times more dangerous', incidentally?

Have a look at the link I posted then show me any counter evidence you have.

It is an uniformed commentary on measurements of PM2.5 levels, and assumes that because the levels are high, the health risk will scale proportionately. Thats about as stupid as saying that a litre of ethanol and a litre of benzene will carry the same risks.

I can't find the original King's article, but a quick look at Google Scholar will tell you that metal particulate risks are not well understood.

2+2 =/= 5

pangolin · July 2023

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.

If it's anything like Bristol you won't actually meet many people going 20

kingstongraham · July 2023

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.

We've got 20mph pretty much everywhere in Kingston and Richmond. As long as the exceptions are done sensibly, it's not a problem.

Unfortunately, the exceptions will not be done sensibly. There are some roads round here that could do with being 30mph when there aren't schoolkids everywhere. Be interested to know if there's going to be any enforcement in Wales, or if it's just expected to reduce speed down from a bit over 30 to about 25.

rjsterry · July 2023

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:
Maybe one for the irony thread, but if Sadiq wants to sort out the places in London with the dirtiest air that millions are exposed to on a regular basis, maybe he should look a bit closer to home:
https://envirotech-online.com/news/air-monitoring/6/breaking-news/whats-worse-for-pollution-london-underground-or-overground/51368

Quote:
According to a study conducted by King’s College London, air quality in the Tube is approximately 15 times more dangerous than that above ground. For the millions of people who use the underground to get to work every day, that’s quite a concerning statistic

I wonder why he isn't even mentioning this, let alone doing something about it? It can't be because he's anti-car, of course...
Whatabout...?
Question of priories.

Or maybe another case of leftie hypocrisy?
It's a totally separate issue, with particles of a different composition and different causes.

Where is there support for '15 times more dangerous', incidentally?

Have a look at the link I posted then show me any counter evidence you have.
It is an uniformed commentary on measurements of PM2.5 levels, and assumes that because the levels are high, the health risk will scale proportionately. Thats about as stupid as saying that a litre of ethanol and a litre of benzene will carry the same risks.

I can't find the original King's article, but a quick look at Google Scholar will tell you that metal particulate risks are not well understood.

2+2 =/= 5

From the actual Kings College website.

However, the relative toxicity of PM2.5 in subway environments compared to above-ground remains poorly understood.

rjsterry · July 2023

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:
Maybe one for the irony thread, but if Sadiq wants to sort out the places in London with the dirtiest air that millions are exposed to on a regular basis, maybe he should look a bit closer to home:
https://envirotech-online.com/news/air-monitoring/6/breaking-news/whats-worse-for-pollution-london-underground-or-overground/51368

Quote:
According to a study conducted by King’s College London, air quality in the Tube is approximately 15 times more dangerous than that above ground. For the millions of people who use the underground to get to work every day, that’s quite a concerning statistic

I wonder why he isn't even mentioning this, let alone doing something about it? It can't be because he's anti-car, of course...
Whatabout...?
Question of priories.

Or maybe another case of leftie hypocrisy?
It's a totally separate issue, with particles of a different composition and different causes.

Where is there support for '15 times more dangerous', incidentally?

Have a look at the link I posted then show me any counter evidence you have.
It is an uniformed commentary on measurements of PM2.5 levels, and assumes that because the levels are high, the health risk will scale proportionately. Thats about as stupid as saying that a litre of ethanol and a litre of benzene will carry the same risks.

I can't find the original King's article, but a quick look at Google Scholar will tell you that metal particulate risks are not well understood.

2+2 =/= 5
From the actual Kings College website.

However, the relative toxicity of PM2.5 in subway environments compared to above-ground remains poorly understood.

Tube dust is mostly iron oxide from wheels and rails, and dead skin cells. If there are combustion products down there, they came from street level.

rjsterry · July 2023

kingstongraham said:

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.
We've got 20mph pretty much everywhere in Kingston and Richmond. As long as the exceptions are done sensibly, it's not a problem.

Unfortunately, the exceptions will not be done sensibly. There are some roads round here that could do with being 30mph when there aren't schoolkids everywhere. Be interested to know if there's going to be any enforcement in Wales, or if it's just expected to reduce speed down from a bit over 30 to about 25.

On the other hand there's a clarity to just having everything at 20.

mully79 · July 2023

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.
We've got 20mph pretty much everywhere in Kingston and Richmond. As long as the exceptions are done sensibly, it's not a problem.

Unfortunately, the exceptions will not be done sensibly. There are some roads round here that could do with being 30mph when there aren't schoolkids everywhere. Be interested to know if there's going to be any enforcement in Wales, or if it's just expected to reduce speed down from a bit over 30 to about 25.
On the other hand there's a clarity to just having everything at 20.

Judging by the signs that have been put up without unveiling I would say sensible isn't part of the plan. All 30mph roads will be 20mph regardless.

That will be an extra 10 minutes on the trip to my nearest supermarket.

briantrumpet · July 2023

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.
We've got 20mph pretty much everywhere in Kingston and Richmond. As long as the exceptions are done sensibly, it's not a problem.

Unfortunately, the exceptions will not be done sensibly. There are some roads round here that could do with being 30mph when there aren't schoolkids everywhere. Be interested to know if there's going to be any enforcement in Wales, or if it's just expected to reduce speed down from a bit over 30 to about 25.
On the other hand there's a clarity to just having everything at 20.

And if it nudges down speeds, even if few people actually stick to 20mph, it will reduce the number and severity of accidents. The 'antis' argument will be that because no-one actually sticks to exactly 20mph they aren't worth doing at all, which ignores the positive outcomes of nudging speeds down in residential areas.

kingstongraham · July 2023

briantrumpet said:

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.
We've got 20mph pretty much everywhere in Kingston and Richmond. As long as the exceptions are done sensibly, it's not a problem.

Unfortunately, the exceptions will not be done sensibly. There are some roads round here that could do with being 30mph when there aren't schoolkids everywhere. Be interested to know if there's going to be any enforcement in Wales, or if it's just expected to reduce speed down from a bit over 30 to about 25.
On the other hand there's a clarity to just having everything at 20.

And if it nudges down speeds, even if few people actually stick to 20mph, it will reduce the number and severity of accidents. The 'antis' argument will be that because no-one actually sticks to exactly 20mph they aren't worth doing at all, which ignores the positive outcomes of nudging speeds down in residential areas.

This I get, but I'd rather they make it 25 and enforce that. Or enforce it at 20mph.

focuszing723 · July 2023

You should still be able to drive thirty if you attach a metre block of foam to your front bumper.

kingstongraham · July 2023

focuszing723 said:
You should still be able to drive thirty if you attach a metre block of foam to your front bumper.

Or a massive spike on your steering wheel pointing at the driver, as suggested by someone I forget who.

First.Aspect · July 2023

mully79 said:

rjsterry said:

kingstongraham said:

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.
We've got 20mph pretty much everywhere in Kingston and Richmond. As long as the exceptions are done sensibly, it's not a problem.

Unfortunately, the exceptions will not be done sensibly. There are some roads round here that could do with being 30mph when there aren't schoolkids everywhere. Be interested to know if there's going to be any enforcement in Wales, or if it's just expected to reduce speed down from a bit over 30 to about 25.
On the other hand there's a clarity to just having everything at 20.
Judging by the signs that have been put up without unveiling I would say sensible isn't part of the plan. All 30mph roads will be 20mph regardless.

That will be an extra 10 minutes on the trip to my nearest supermarket.

How can people who cycle still buy into this sort of statement?

focuszing723 · July 2023

kingstongraham said:

focuszing723 said:
You should still be able to drive thirty if you attach a metre block of foam to your front bumper.
Or a massive spike on your steering wheel pointing at the driver, as suggested by someone I forget who.

But, but, but with my idea the pedestrian would have a nice foam experience, as opposed to the driver getting scewered and the pedestrian getting wangered too.

briantrumpet · July 2023

focuszing723 said:

kingstongraham said:

focuszing723 said:
You should still be able to drive thirty if you attach a metre block of foam to your front bumper.
Or a massive spike on your steering wheel pointing at the driver, as suggested by someone I forget who.
But, but, but with my idea the pedestrian would have a nice foam experience, as opposed to the driver getting scewered and the pedestrian getting wangered too.

Bouncy castle, and you might have a point. Any less than that, and I'm not playing.

Pross · July 2023

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:
Maybe one for the irony thread, but if Sadiq wants to sort out the places in London with the dirtiest air that millions are exposed to on a regular basis, maybe he should look a bit closer to home:
https://envirotech-online.com/news/air-monitoring/6/breaking-news/whats-worse-for-pollution-london-underground-or-overground/51368

Quote:
According to a study conducted by King’s College London, air quality in the Tube is approximately 15 times more dangerous than that above ground. For the millions of people who use the underground to get to work every day, that’s quite a concerning statistic

I wonder why he isn't even mentioning this, let alone doing something about it? It can't be because he's anti-car, of course...
Whatabout...?
Question of priories.

Or maybe another case of leftie hypocrisy?
Priories? Let's leave monasteries out of this.
That Cromwell was a bit of a Leftie though with his ideas of reform and a commonwealth.
Are you muddling Thomas and Oliver?

No, both refer to Thomas.

kingstongraham · July 2023

focuszing723 said:

kingstongraham said:

focuszing723 said:
You should still be able to drive thirty if you attach a metre block of foam to your front bumper.
Or a massive spike on your steering wheel pointing at the driver, as suggested by someone I forget who.
But, but, but with my idea the pedestrian would have a nice foam experience, as opposed to the driver getting scewered and the pedestrian getting wangered too.

I'm not sure the pedestrian wants to be knocked over by a piece of foam travelling at 30mph, so let's do both.

Pross · July 2023

kingstongraham said:

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.
We've got 20mph pretty much everywhere in Kingston and Richmond. As long as the exceptions are done sensibly, it's not a problem.

Unfortunately, the exceptions will not be done sensibly. There are some roads round here that could do with being 30mph when there aren't schoolkids everywhere. Be interested to know if there's going to be any enforcement in Wales, or if it's just expected to reduce speed down from a bit over 30 to about 25.

Quite a lot of exceptions, the ones near me all seem sensible. The biggest issue I have with the proposals is the lack of physical works to make the roads feel like they should be driven slowly. In some cases the roads still have signs, markings and lighting from before they even became 30mph limits and you end up with that type of road where 20mph feels like you're not moving. I'm not against it but it is being done on the cheap so probably won't work as well as it should.

webboo · July 2023

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

First.Aspect said:

Stevo_666 said:
Maybe one for the irony thread, but if Sadiq wants to sort out the places in London with the dirtiest air that millions are exposed to on a regular basis, maybe he should look a bit closer to home:
https://envirotech-online.com/news/air-monitoring/6/breaking-news/whats-worse-for-pollution-london-underground-or-overground/51368

Quote:
According to a study conducted by King’s College London, air quality in the Tube is approximately 15 times more dangerous than that above ground. For the millions of people who use the underground to get to work every day, that’s quite a concerning statistic

I wonder why he isn't even mentioning this, let alone doing something about it? It can't be because he's anti-car, of course...
Whatabout...?
Question of priories.

Or maybe another case of leftie hypocrisy?
Priories? Let's leave monasteries out of this.
That Cromwell was a bit of a Leftie though with his ideas of reform and a commonwealth.
Are you muddling Thomas and Oliver?
No, both refer to Thomas.

The commonwealth was Oliver. Thomas was Henry VIII’s hatchet man till he felt it himself.

kingstongraham · July 2023

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

mully79 said:
Statutory 20mph is nearly here in Wales which is going to make every ex 30mph road county wide feel like a LTN.

It's going to be carnage.

It will make it tempting to blast down residential rat runs to get ahead of the driver Infront doing 15mph on the main road.
We've got 20mph pretty much everywhere in Kingston and Richmond. As long as the exceptions are done sensibly, it's not a problem.

Unfortunately, the exceptions will not be done sensibly. There are some roads round here that could do with being 30mph when there aren't schoolkids everywhere. Be interested to know if there's going to be any enforcement in Wales, or if it's just expected to reduce speed down from a bit over 30 to about 25.
Quite a lot of exceptions, the ones near me all seem sensible. The biggest issue I have with the proposals is the lack of physical works to make the roads feel like they should be driven slowly. In some cases the roads still have signs, markings and lighting from before they even became 30mph limits and you end up with that type of road where 20mph feels like you're not moving. I'm not against it but it is being done on the cheap so probably won't work as well as it should.

Yes, this is one near me that absolutely should be 20mph (and is), but it feels wrong.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4339661,-0.3191952,3a,75y,335.23h,87.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sA-GaUi9259rODAD4XiFHzA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

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