The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

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Comments

  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,801
    pangolin said:

    Hahahaha. Quality.

    You'll have to try harder than that if you want to be my pet troll.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,391
    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    You got a car that gives out lower particulate emissions because of ULEZ.

    Great stuff 👍

    I'm sure Sadiq will be pleased to know it works.
    No problem for me, I could afford it :smile: Which is kind of my point above as many cannot.

    Not sure what my current car will do for global warming though.
    That's not anything to do with ULEZ. So London thanks you for your service.
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,474
    Interesting chat with an academic involved with automobile industry.

    Net Zero travel is never going to happen. Even going by bike generates CO2 as there is the energy in making it/tyres/food we eat to give us energy. Diesel cars are the cleanest they've ever been. Diesel cars are STILL better for the environment as they use less fuel overall. CO2 production in transport has risen globally since we have been chasing lower NOx emissions. More particulates are generated from tyres and brakes than engines. Huge amounts of CO2 are being produced by China to make the batteries, steel, components to go into our so called 'low carbon' EVs and they produce their energy from mostly coal. The list goes on and on...

    One way we can reduce our carbon emissions by 20% overnight is to reduce our car use by 20%. So much easier than chasing the mythical beast of Zero Carbon transport.


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,940
    I've cut my car mileage by 80% simply by wfh.
    Do I get a medal? 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,474
    pblakeney said:

    I've cut my car mileage by 80% simply by wfh.
    Do I get a medal? 😉

    Yup!

    via GIPHY

    https://media.giphy.com/media/BMt31oekjIG4V8jFhE/giphy.gif


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,940
    Excellent!
    Warms the cockles of my heart that does.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,350
    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    You got a car that gives out lower particulate emissions because of ULEZ.

    Great stuff 👍

    I'm sure Sadiq will be pleased to know it works.
    No problem for me, I could afford it :smile: Which is kind of my point above as many cannot.

    Not sure what my current car will do for global warming though.
    Not sure what ULEZ will do to prevent whaling either. Stupid scheme.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,926
    photonic69 said:

    Interesting chat with an academic involved with automobile industry.

    Net Zero travel is never going to happen. Even going by bike generates CO2 as there is the energy in making it/tyres/food we eat to give us energy. Diesel cars are the cleanest they've ever been. Diesel cars are STILL better for the environment as they use less fuel overall. CO2 production in transport has risen globally since we have been chasing lower NOx emissions. More particulates are generated from tyres and brakes than engines. Huge amounts of CO2 are being produced by China to make the batteries, steel, components to go into our so called 'low carbon' EVs and they produce their energy from mostly coal. The list goes on and on...

    One way we can reduce our carbon emissions by 20% overnight is to reduce our car use by 20%. So much easier than chasing the mythical beast of Zero Carbon transport.

    Aren't we producing carbon emissions in any other part of our lives than driving then?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,843
    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    You got a car that gives out lower particulate emissions because of ULEZ.

    Great stuff 👍

    I'm sure Sadiq will be pleased to know it works.
    No problem for me, I could afford it :smile: Which is kind of my point above as many cannot.

    Not sure what my current car will do for global warming though.
    In this case it's about particulates and NOX, not CO2, as has been already discussed. You can see the brown fog over London in the mornings.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,843
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    Good to hear. When we last changed our car we went for petrol as we could see the way the rules were heading and with two asthmatics in the family, a diesel was just a bad idea. Everyone was still trying to sell us a diesel - presumably as they were trying to clear stock that would soon be worth less than they paid for it. That was about 5 or 6 years ago, so not sure people have much to complain about. I'm sure there were some coal merchants that complained about the Clean Air Acts in the 1950s, too.
    This is the problem with cities you see. However it will be sorted once EVs are the only option. This looks like more of an opportunity for Sadiq to fill his coffers in the meantime. But not with my money.
    It's a problem that is being eliminated just as '50s smog was. And one more time: it was a mandatory part of the deal between TfL and central government to bail it out from Covid losses. It's as much Shapps's ULEZ as Khan's.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,474
    Pross said:

    photonic69 said:

    Interesting chat with an academic involved with automobile industry.

    Net Zero travel is never going to happen. Even going by bike generates CO2 as there is the energy in making it/tyres/food we eat to give us energy. Diesel cars are the cleanest they've ever been. Diesel cars are STILL better for the environment as they use less fuel overall. CO2 production in transport has risen globally since we have been chasing lower NOx emissions. More particulates are generated from tyres and brakes than engines. Huge amounts of CO2 are being produced by China to make the batteries, steel, components to go into our so called 'low carbon' EVs and they produce their energy from mostly coal. The list goes on and on...

    One way we can reduce our carbon emissions by 20% overnight is to reduce our car use by 20%. So much easier than chasing the mythical beast of Zero Carbon transport.

    Aren't we producing carbon emissions in any other part of our lives than driving then?
    Sorry, I should have specified "car carbon emissions at tailpipe", but actually it is wider than that. If less car journeys are taken then demand for cars drops, traffic drops, journeys become more efficient, less emissions from factories producing car components adn the steel and other metals for car production and the mining thereof etc...


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    You got a car that gives out lower particulate emissions because of ULEZ.

    Great stuff 👍

    I'm sure Sadiq will be pleased to know it works.
    No problem for me, I could afford it :smile: Which is kind of my point above as many cannot.

    Not sure what my current car will do for global warming though.
    In this case it's about particulates and NOX, not CO2, as has been already discussed. You can see the brown fog over London in the mornings.
    when I first moved to the Wharf I was amazed the way that used to build up on a still day.

    Why do you reckon it goes unreported?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,275
    back on topic…
    in over 20 years, I have never regularly commuted by car. It has happened on very few occasionas, maybe 5 or 6 times per year.
    Currently I cycle to work most says, unless it is icy or hopelessly wet, in which case I use the bus service, which is very convenient, at £4 for the return trip, most buses are electric.
    I don’t get the appeal of driving. Many of my colleagues do, spending up to 3 grand per year, between fuel and parking parmits. They seem to be the same people who come in at 9 AM and leave at 5 PM, hence making the least of their car, basically being stuck in traffic. Very odd indeed
    left the forum March 2023
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,926
    ugo.santalucia said:

    back on topic…
    in over 20 years, I have never regularly commuted by car. It has happened on very few occasionas, maybe 5 or 6 times per year.
    Currently I cycle to work most says, unless it is icy or hopelessly wet, in which case I use the bus service, which is very convenient, at £4 for the return trip, most buses are electric.
    I don’t get the appeal of driving. Many of my colleagues do, spending up to 3 grand per year, between fuel and parking parmits. They seem to be the same people who come in at 9 AM and leave at 5 PM, hence making the least of their car, basically being stuck in traffic. Very odd indeed

    Maybe they live somewhere that means cycling or the bus aren't as convenient as they are for you? Maybe they already lived there before they took the job or they can't afford to live closer or they don't like living within an urban environment or maybe they're just lazy feckers who prefer the convenience or comfort of their cars. None of those reasons are particularly odd although some could be considered selfish possibly.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,801
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    You got a car that gives out lower particulate emissions because of ULEZ.

    Great stuff 👍

    I'm sure Sadiq will be pleased to know it works.
    No problem for me, I could afford it :smile: Which is kind of my point above as many cannot.

    Not sure what my current car will do for global warming though.
    In this case it's about particulates and NOX, not CO2, as has been already discussed. You can see the brown fog over London in the mornings.
    I know. Hence my statement about the other impacts, which was probably not what they had intended to happen.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,801
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    Good to hear. When we last changed our car we went for petrol as we could see the way the rules were heading and with two asthmatics in the family, a diesel was just a bad idea. Everyone was still trying to sell us a diesel - presumably as they were trying to clear stock that would soon be worth less than they paid for it. That was about 5 or 6 years ago, so not sure people have much to complain about. I'm sure there were some coal merchants that complained about the Clean Air Acts in the 1950s, too.
    This is the problem with cities you see. However it will be sorted once EVs are the only option. This looks like more of an opportunity for Sadiq to fill his coffers in the meantime. But not with my money.
    It's a problem that is being eliminated just as '50s smog was. And one more time: it was a mandatory part of the deal between TfL and central government to bail it out from Covid losses. It's as much Shapps's ULEZ as Khan's.
    Whatever the deal was I'm not that fussed. However as several councils have pointed out, it disproportionately hits the those least able to afford it.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,926
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    Good to hear. When we last changed our car we went for petrol as we could see the way the rules were heading and with two asthmatics in the family, a diesel was just a bad idea. Everyone was still trying to sell us a diesel - presumably as they were trying to clear stock that would soon be worth less than they paid for it. That was about 5 or 6 years ago, so not sure people have much to complain about. I'm sure there were some coal merchants that complained about the Clean Air Acts in the 1950s, too.
    This is the problem with cities you see. However it will be sorted once EVs are the only option. This looks like more of an opportunity for Sadiq to fill his coffers in the meantime. But not with my money.
    It's a problem that is being eliminated just as '50s smog was. And one more time: it was a mandatory part of the deal between TfL and central government to bail it out from Covid losses. It's as much Shapps's ULEZ as Khan's.
    Whatever the deal was I'm not that fussed. However as several councils have pointed out, it disproportionately hits the those least able to afford it.
    Typical bleeding heart liberal!
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,801
    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    Good to hear. When we last changed our car we went for petrol as we could see the way the rules were heading and with two asthmatics in the family, a diesel was just a bad idea. Everyone was still trying to sell us a diesel - presumably as they were trying to clear stock that would soon be worth less than they paid for it. That was about 5 or 6 years ago, so not sure people have much to complain about. I'm sure there were some coal merchants that complained about the Clean Air Acts in the 1950s, too.
    This is the problem with cities you see. However it will be sorted once EVs are the only option. This looks like more of an opportunity for Sadiq to fill his coffers in the meantime. But not with my money.
    It's a problem that is being eliminated just as '50s smog was. And one more time: it was a mandatory part of the deal between TfL and central government to bail it out from Covid losses. It's as much Shapps's ULEZ as Khan's.
    Whatever the deal was I'm not that fussed. However as several councils have pointed out, it disproportionately hits the those least able to afford it.
    Typical bleeding heart liberal!
    Terrible isn't it. But interesting that those who usually claim to be compassionate about those less fortunate seem to be silent on this one because its a 'green' cause or their hobby horse.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    Good to hear. When we last changed our car we went for petrol as we could see the way the rules were heading and with two asthmatics in the family, a diesel was just a bad idea. Everyone was still trying to sell us a diesel - presumably as they were trying to clear stock that would soon be worth less than they paid for it. That was about 5 or 6 years ago, so not sure people have much to complain about. I'm sure there were some coal merchants that complained about the Clean Air Acts in the 1950s, too.
    This is the problem with cities you see. However it will be sorted once EVs are the only option. This looks like more of an opportunity for Sadiq to fill his coffers in the meantime. But not with my money.
    It's a problem that is being eliminated just as '50s smog was. And one more time: it was a mandatory part of the deal between TfL and central government to bail it out from Covid losses. It's as much Shapps's ULEZ as Khan's.
    Whatever the deal was I'm not that fussed. However as several councils have pointed out, it disproportionately hits the those least able to afford it.
    Typical bleeding heart liberal!
    Terrible isn't it. But interesting that those who usually claim to be compassionate about those less fortunate seem to be silent on this one because its a 'green' cause or their hobby horse.
    It is strange that this does not get discussed more.
    Ken's original congestion charge priced poor people out of London and emptied he roads for the toof in his chauffeur driven Rolls.
    Blair/Brown loved the fuel duty escalator which again was pricing poor people off the road
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,739
    surrey_commuter said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    Good to hear. When we last changed our car we went for petrol as we could see the way the rules were heading and with two asthmatics in the family, a diesel was just a bad idea. Everyone was still trying to sell us a diesel - presumably as they were trying to clear stock that would soon be worth less than they paid for it. That was about 5 or 6 years ago, so not sure people have much to complain about. I'm sure there were some coal merchants that complained about the Clean Air Acts in the 1950s, too.
    This is the problem with cities you see. However it will be sorted once EVs are the only option. This looks like more of an opportunity for Sadiq to fill his coffers in the meantime. But not with my money.
    It's a problem that is being eliminated just as '50s smog was. And one more time: it was a mandatory part of the deal between TfL and central government to bail it out from Covid losses. It's as much Shapps's ULEZ as Khan's.
    Whatever the deal was I'm not that fussed. However as several councils have pointed out, it disproportionately hits the those least able to afford it.
    Typical bleeding heart liberal!
    Terrible isn't it. But interesting that those who usually claim to be compassionate about those less fortunate seem to be silent on this one because its a 'green' cause or their hobby horse.
    It is strange that this does not get discussed more.
    Ken's original congestion charge priced poor people out of London and emptied he roads for the toof in his chauffeur driven Rolls.
    Blair/Brown loved the fuel duty escalator which again was pricing poor people off the road
    The original congestion charge improved bus journeys which helped the poor. Parking costs had already made driving tricky for most.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,739
    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    Good to hear. When we last changed our car we went for petrol as we could see the way the rules were heading and with two asthmatics in the family, a diesel was just a bad idea. Everyone was still trying to sell us a diesel - presumably as they were trying to clear stock that would soon be worth less than they paid for it. That was about 5 or 6 years ago, so not sure people have much to complain about. I'm sure there were some coal merchants that complained about the Clean Air Acts in the 1950s, too.
    This is the problem with cities you see. However it will be sorted once EVs are the only option. This looks like more of an opportunity for Sadiq to fill his coffers in the meantime. But not with my money.
    It's a problem that is being eliminated just as '50s smog was. And one more time: it was a mandatory part of the deal between TfL and central government to bail it out from Covid losses. It's as much Shapps's ULEZ as Khan's.
    Whatever the deal was I'm not that fussed. However as several councils have pointed out, it disproportionately hits the those least able to afford it.
    Typical bleeding heart liberal!
    Terrible isn't it. But interesting that those who usually claim to be compassionate about those less fortunate seem to be silent on this one because its a 'green' cause or their hobby horse.
    The obvious solution is for a new tax on expensive cars which will pay for poorer people to transition to ULEZ compliant cars.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,739
    Could do with an Uver tax too to help subsidise buses.
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,350
    If the poor have been priced off the roads then the middle class is much larger than I thought.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,739
    pangolin said:

    If the poor have been priced off the roads then the middle class is much larger than I thought.

    They've been priced out of central London during the daytime not priced off the roads.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,843
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    You got a car that gives out lower particulate emissions because of ULEZ.

    Great stuff 👍

    I'm sure Sadiq will be pleased to know it works.
    No problem for me, I could afford it :smile: Which is kind of my point above as many cannot.

    Not sure what my current car will do for global warming though.
    In this case it's about particulates and NOX, not CO2, as has been already discussed. You can see the brown fog over London in the mornings.
    when I first moved to the Wharf I was amazed the way that used to build up on a still day.

    Why do you reckon it goes unreported?
    Denial.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,926
    Why would the poor need to use roads? Surely there’s a bookies and Wetherspoons within walking distance when they decide to have a break from watching Netflix and ordering from Uber Eats*


    * I’ve learned a lot about the poor from reading the Mail and the comments from their knowledgeable readers.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 18,135
    Pross said:

    Why would the poor need to use roads? Surely there’s a bookies and Wetherspoons within walking distance when they decide to have a break from watching Netflix and ordering from Uber Eats*


    * I’ve learned a lot about the poor from reading the Mail and the comments from their knowledgeable readers.


    Glad you've not succumbed to PC-talk as prescribed by the AP syle guide, and will continue to refer to unfortunately afflicted people as "the poor", "the French" etc.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • mully79
    mully79 Posts: 904
    Lot of messing about with cameras and bs to end up with everywhere a chargeable zone. Just tax cars based on mileage/emissions in the first place.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,801
    TheBigBean said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Pross said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    And Hidalgo isn't exactly popular with the French. I wonder why?
    https://statista.com/statistics/1086154/anne-hidalgo-populairty-france/
    Although being a socialist she'll probably just plough on with her agenda anyway.

    Sometimes that is exactly what is needed. One of the biggest problems in the UK is we elect people but then expect to have a say in all decision making. It’s why it takes decades for any meaningful project to get anyway and when it comes to things like climate and pollution that’s too long.
    May depend what they said in their manifesto etc. People like Hidalgo and sadiq will soon be reminded that motorists have votes and there are a lot of them.
    Still can't understand why you are so bothered about this when it has no effect on you.
    Just because it doesn't really affect me doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. You don't drive but you have an opinion on cars.
    I didn't say you couldn't have an opinion; just wondering why you are so against a restriction on certain, mostly pretty old, vehicles. I have an opinion because the pollution directly affects me and my family - I think that's a fairly obvious reason to support it. We do have a car, but one that meets the emissions requirements (which aren't even that onerous) and isn't a diesel.

    As regards manifestos, the extension of the ULEZ was in Khan's last manifesto:

    A GREEN NEW DEAL
    A Green New Deal for the city, with cleaner air, improved open
    spaces, green jobs and tackling climate change at its heart, including
    extending the ULEZ in October 2021.


    Not sure what's unclear about that. There's even been an extra 18 months for people to take advantage of the scrappage scheme.
    The ULEZ extension in 2021 was from the original boundaries in central London to the current North and South Circular boundaries. This latest extension to cover the whole of Greater London is new and pretty major, which may explain the resistance it is encountering.

    Ironically I had a diesel runabout which I sold in advance of that last expansion as it was not ULEZ compliant and quite a few of my journeys at the time would have taken me into the zone. I bought a petrol car to replace it which does at best half the mpg and is three times more powerful. But its ULEZ compliant so I clearly did the right thing :smile:
    Good to hear. When we last changed our car we went for petrol as we could see the way the rules were heading and with two asthmatics in the family, a diesel was just a bad idea. Everyone was still trying to sell us a diesel - presumably as they were trying to clear stock that would soon be worth less than they paid for it. That was about 5 or 6 years ago, so not sure people have much to complain about. I'm sure there were some coal merchants that complained about the Clean Air Acts in the 1950s, too.
    This is the problem with cities you see. However it will be sorted once EVs are the only option. This looks like more of an opportunity for Sadiq to fill his coffers in the meantime. But not with my money.
    It's a problem that is being eliminated just as '50s smog was. And one more time: it was a mandatory part of the deal between TfL and central government to bail it out from Covid losses. It's as much Shapps's ULEZ as Khan's.
    Whatever the deal was I'm not that fussed. However as several councils have pointed out, it disproportionately hits the those least able to afford it.
    Typical bleeding heart liberal!
    Terrible isn't it. But interesting that those who usually claim to be compassionate about those less fortunate seem to be silent on this one because its a 'green' cause or their hobby horse.
    The obvious solution is for a new tax on expensive cars which will pay for poorer people to transition to ULEZ compliant cars.
    They already have it - road tax premium for all cars with over £40k list price when new.
    https://gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables

    No need for another one.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,801
    TheBigBean said:

    Could do with an Uver tax too to help subsidise buses.

    Is that like a hoover? Thought they were powered by electricity.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]

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