The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

Pretty sure I read a study somewhere that trams are the most cost-effective way to improve transport around a city.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

Pretty sure I read a study somewhere that trams are the most cost-effective way to improve transport around a city.

Have you any knowledge whatsoever on this?

MattFalle

rjsterry said:

MattFalle said:

just out of interest, where are all these trained and vetted bus and train drivers going to come from?

Largely a problem of running a system that relies on lots of overtime for decades.

MattFalle said:

pblakeney said:

MattFalle said:

How are we going to finance the thousand of miles of new trackway needed?

gonna need shitliads of it.

and gravel. where is all that going to come from?

more to the point, where are the new rail nd tramways going to go?

Revert the Beecham closures and put them back.
Shame the cycle paths will have to go. Oh.

different gauges and construction/safety standards so couldn't do anyway, no?

MattFalle said:

pblakeney said:

MattFalle said:

How are we going to finance the thousand of miles of new trackway needed?

gonna need shitliads of it.

and gravel. where is all that going to come from?

more to the point, where are the new rail nd tramways going to go?

Revert the Beecham closures and put them back.
Shame the cycle paths will have to go. Oh.

different gauges and construction/safety standards so couldn't do anyway, no?

It's been 4' 8 1/2" for at least the last 100 years so I don't think that's a problem. We are building HS2, so I think we could manage a few branch lines if we chose to.

according to this there still isn't standadisation across the board, so which one are they going to choose and why?

HS2 is also going well.......

MattFalle

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

Pretty sure I read a study somewhere that trams are the most cost-effective way to improve transport around a city.

Have you any knowledge whatsoever on this?

plus ca change

MattFalle

First.Aspect said:

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/301707/cyclists-and-tram-tracks-a-recipe-for-disaster

tbh though, I'm loving the docks n sandals combo in the main picture

TheBigBean

I think I need to buy a car, so I can have a bigger Christmas tree and stock up on toilet paper. This thread has helped me see the light.

MattFalle

nah - get yoursef a pick up ute thing. thats what you need for that

First.Aspect

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/301707/cyclists-and-tram-tracks-a-recipe-for-disaster

tbh though, I'm loving the docks n sandals combo in the main picture

Trams are a red herring. They are heavier and more expensive than busses.

There is absolutely no reason a bus, or a trolley bus, system couldn't be given the same priorities through a city as a tram, with much less infrastructure required. It is a case of willingness of city planners to allow motorists to be incandescent when they see a bus making progress.

photonic69

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

We don't need trams. We need electric trolley buses. Far easier to implement. No expensive rails that will be dug up by water companies every two weeks. No danger to cyclists. Clean. Quiet. Efficient.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51034523

kingstongraham

Why are trams in any way better than electric buses if you give buses dedicated space? Buses are like trams but if one breaks down the others can go around it.

First.Aspect

photonic69 said:

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

We don't need trams. We need electric trolley buses. Far easier to implement. No expensive rails that will be dug up by water companies every two weeks. No danger to cyclists. Clean. Quiet. Efficient.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51034523

Correct, go straight to go and collect £200.

kingstongraham

First.Aspect said:

photonic69 said:

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

We don't need trams. We need electric trolley buses. Far easier to implement. No expensive rails that will be dug up by water companies every two weeks. No danger to cyclists. Clean. Quiet. Efficient.




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51034523

Correct, go straight to go and collect £200.

Or this.

https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/1587460729195692035?t=gejjYG-gzj7LrMEq8Lk4CQ&s=19

pangolin

Monorail?

MattFalle

First.Aspect said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/301707/cyclists-and-tram-tracks-a-recipe-for-disaster

tbh though, I'm loving the docks n sandals combo in the main picture

Trams are a red herring. They are heavier and more expensive than busses.

There is absolutely no reason a bus, or a trolley bus, system couldn't be given the same priorities through a city as a tram, with much less infrastructure required. It is a case of willingness of city planners to allow motorists to be incandescent when they see a bus making progress.

legit q: why did they decide on trams in Manchester and other places over electric buses given downsides you point out?

First.Aspect

How can they only take 10 minutes to charge? Presumably based on a short route.

I think it is six and two 3s when it comes to electrification. Trolley busses are very simple things, and lighter. They need power but not charging infrastructure or charging delays. They have route limitations baked in, of course.

If you ask me, hydrogen is the perfect solution for HGVs and similarly large vehicles....

TheBigBean

First.Aspect said:

How can they only take 10 minutes to charge? Presumably based on a short route.

I think it is six and two 3s when it comes to electrification. Trolley busses are very simple things, and lighter. They need power but not charging infrastructure or charging delays. They have route limitations baked in, of course.

If you ask me, hydrogen is the perfect solution for HGVs and similarly large vehicles....

I agree. Anything that is in constant use (Amazon forklift trucks, taxis) or requires more power (trucks, trains) would be better using hydrogen. That said, I met someone (with expertise) who disagreed with this and thought electric buses were the way forward.

kingstongraham

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/301707/cyclists-and-tram-tracks-a-recipe-for-disaster

tbh though, I'm loving the docks n sandals combo in the main picture

Trams are a red herring. They are heavier and more expensive than busses.

There is absolutely no reason a bus, or a trolley bus, system couldn't be given the same priorities through a city as a tram, with much less infrastructure required. It is a case of willingness of city planners to allow motorists to be incandescent when they see a bus making progress.

legit q: why did they decide on trams in Manchester and other places over electric buses given downsides you point out?

Maybe rails are easier to justify for the long dedicated stretches than "roads you can't use".

The decision was a while back, but trolleybuses would surely have been better even then.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

Pretty sure I read a study somewhere that trams are the most cost-effective way to improve transport around a city.

Have you any knowledge whatsoever on this?

I can't find it now but here's something similar:

https://bathtrams.uk/solving-baths-traffic/comparative-benefits-trams-vs-buses/

and https://bathtrams.uk/tfl-evidence-to-parliamentary-select-committee-2005-trams-are-cheaper-than-buses/

I think over the lifetime of a tram line, once you include the cost of putting them in, they're about as cheap and efficient way to do public transport in a city.

Certainly cheaper than underground, and as per the link, cheaper over the lifetime than busses.

Obviously less flexible than busses.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

MattFalle said:

First.Aspect said:

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/301707/cyclists-and-tram-tracks-a-recipe-for-disaster

tbh though, I'm loving the docks n sandals combo in the main picture

Trams are a red herring. They are heavier and more expensive than busses.

There is absolutely no reason a bus, or a trolley bus, system couldn't be given the same priorities through a city as a tram, with much less infrastructure required. It is a case of willingness of city planners to allow motorists to be incandescent when they see a bus making progress.

legit q: why did they decide on trams in Manchester and other places over electric buses given downsides you point out?

Maybe rails are easier to justify for the long dedicated stretches than "roads you can't use".

The decision was a while back, but trolleybuses would surely have been better even then.

Trams are much more efficient in terms of energy use.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

Why are trams in any way better than electric buses if you give buses dedicated space? Buses are like trams but if one breaks down the others can go around it.

After decades of taking Section 106 contributions to build a light rail system in Bristol they eventually opted for the Metrobus which is basically just a bus with some dedicated road / guided roadway sections. I've never used it but apparently it is an improvement on the standard bus (although that seems to be mainly due to it being more of an express system with fewer stops which makes it an option for fewer people). I quite like trams but mainly on the sections where they have their own rail lines, once they hit the routes along roads they are as much hostage to traffic as everything else.

rick_chasey

Didn't the Edinburgh tram, despite an overrun, make profit 2 years sooner than predicted?

Pross

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

Pretty sure I read a study somewhere that trams are the most cost-effective way to improve transport around a city.

Have you any knowledge whatsoever on this?

I can't find it now but here's something similar:

https://bathtrams.uk/solving-baths-traffic/comparative-benefits-trams-vs-buses/

and https://bathtrams.uk/tfl-evidence-to-parliamentary-select-committee-2005-trams-are-cheaper-than-buses/

I think over the lifetime of a tram line, once you include the cost of putting them in, they're about as cheap and efficient way to do public transport in a city.

Certainly cheaper than underground, and as per the link, cheaper over the lifetime than busses.

Obviously less flexible than busses.

I thought they'd got rid of the bendy buses!

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

Didn't the Edinburgh tram, despite an overrun, make profit 2 years sooner than predicted?

Having used it to get to and from Murrayfield and the airport I'd suggest that their pricing is not conducive to getting people out of their cars.

rick_chasey

Ha. Makes sense. Aren't they looking to expand it?

photonic69

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

Pretty sure I read a study somewhere that trams are the most cost-effective way to improve transport around a city.

Have you any knowledge whatsoever on this?

I can't find it now but here's something similar:

https://bathtrams.uk/solving-baths-traffic/comparative-benefits-trams-vs-buses/

and https://bathtrams.uk/tfl-evidence-to-parliamentary-select-committee-2005-trams-are-cheaper-than-buses/

I think over the lifetime of a tram line, once you include the cost of putting them in, they're about as cheap and efficient way to do public transport in a city.

Certainly cheaper than underground, and as per the link, cheaper over the lifetime than busses.

Obviously less flexible than busses.

Complete pie inthe sky thinking of some local nutcases. I know, I live here. The routes they propose are chock full of cars coming from miles outside of town. There is no ring road so all traffic, local or not has to use those routes. Lorries, vans, private cars, buses etc. The roads are not big enough to separate the trams from the cars. Despite what they say in the links about using 'green wave traffic light pre-emption / dynamic tram priority signalization' - Absolute poppycocks! Those roads are in poor repair and constantly dug up. Not so easy to dig up and relay tracks and maintain tram flow.
It might have worked if they had more park and rides especially to the East of the city. One was proposed but due to outcry from the NIMBYs and local Tory councillors it was thrown out and the land given to the NT with a covenant that it never be used for park and ride development. Totally scuppered a plan that would ease local congestion on that side of the city. Nuts. Trams might work where there is less traffic and without P7R and ring roads it'll never happen. Yes, it worked 100 years ago when cars were rare and the streets had horses.
The figures they quote are very massaged in their favour.

rick_chasey

Problem with the tram is, in part, too many cars? lol.

Pross

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Didn't the Edinburgh tram, despite an overrun, make profit 2 years sooner than predicted?

Having used it to get to and from Murrayfield and the airport I'd suggest that their pricing is not conducive to getting people out of their cars.

Thought it was OK for a return from the airport (think it was 50p more than the bus). I used the normal bus to get back from Britannia having walked out there as it was pouring down and the wife had fallen and injured her ankle, that seemed decent value too.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Ha. Makes sense. Aren't they looking to expand it?

Yes, the whole of the mile walk from the end of the existing line to my hotel and the two mile walk from the hotel out to the Britannia in Leith was a giant construction site. The phasing of the work seemed odd, I've never worked on trams or rail but I'd have thought that completing smaller sections and getting them open as they moved further out would be logical but they seemed to be working on the whole length in one hit. I'm sure there's a reason that I don't understand though.

pblakeney

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

Didn't the Edinburgh tram, despite an overrun, make profit 2 years sooner than predicted?

Having used it to get to and from Murrayfield and the airport I'd suggest that their pricing is not conducive to getting people out of their cars.

Thought it was OK for a return from the airport (think it was 50p more than the bus). I used the normal bus to get back from Britannia having walked out there as it was pouring down and the wife had fallen and injured her ankle, that seemed decent value too.

Tram £8.50 return from the airport to the stadium, bus £3.40. Four people in a taxi/car*?
According to this -
https://ask.scottishrugby.org/hc/en-gb/articles/360011834220-Getting-to-BT-Murrayfield

*Nobody drives, gets a taxi, or uses public transport at game time though due to pedestrian congestion. This is why the tram costs so much. Much better to go to the pub. 😉

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

They have has some success reopening rail lines up here. But even those, where the embankments and moat of the route hadn't been built on, turned out to be too expensive to do properly. God only knows how expensive it would be to start from scratch, in order to serve lesser deman areas.

And do not, I warn you, wish for trams. We put too much censored under the roads for that to be anything other than a money pit to install the rails. They are also a nightmare for cycling and no faster than busses.

Croydon managed it. Edinburgh: more incompetent than Croydon.