The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

E-bikes are the solution to not-flat towns however. They flatten out pretty much everything.

They aren't sustainable. Batteries, see.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

E-bikes are the solution to not-flat towns however. They flatten out pretty much everything.

They aren't sustainable. Batteries, see.

You’d need several orders of magnitude more bikes than cars for that to be a problem.

briantrumpet

Hilly Exeter, not holy. Probably obvs.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

E-bikes are the solution to not-flat towns however. They flatten out pretty much everything.

They aren't sustainable. Batteries, see.

You’d need several orders of magnitude more bikes than cars for that to be a problem.

What are your thoughts on electric motorbikes?

kingstongraham

I liked Paris when I went this year - a very big change has happened there too.

briantrumpet

kingstongraham said:

I liked Paris when I went this year - a very big change has happened there too.

Yes, it's not bad, and better than Lyon, where the structure is appearing, but not yet mutch used, on today's evidence.

focuszing723

What about rick shaws?

Lots and lots of Rick shaws?

First.Aspect

When I visited Lisbon I was struck by the number of trams, also electric scooters. Pretty sure the locals hated the latter, but if you ask me they are a pretty good way to get around. Don't take up much space either.

focuszing723

You can get electric rick shaws.

focuszing723

orraloon

briantrumpet said:

Hilly Exeter, not holy. Probably obvs.

Holy upslopes BrianMan

Dorset_Boy

focuszing723 said:

Oooh, an Audi Tuktuk.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's not just happened by chance. It's at least 20 years of active effort and still some way to go.

Amsterdam isn't much of an outlier if other Dutch cities and towns are comparable. Copenhagen is much the same. They've just been doing it for longer.

shirley_basso

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

All journies or road journie

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's because
A) cars are sort of being demonised and
because the infrastructure exists to travel by many alternative methods.

Stevo_666

shirley_basso said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

All journies or road journie

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's because
A) cars are sort of being demonised and
because the infrastructure exists to travel by many alternative methods.

Cars are part of the mix and will, continue to be. I think there needs to be a more sensible discussion about this as opposed to the knee jerk 'less cars = always better' view that some seem to have.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's not just happened by chance. It's at least 20 years of active effort and still some way to go.

Amsterdam isn't much of an outlier if other Dutch cities and towns are comparable. Copenhagen is much the same. They've just been doing it for longer.

Both much smaller cities than London it should be noted.

And the London change has probably gone far enough, if the majority opposition to Sadiqs ULEZ expansion is anything anything to go by (which he ignored anyway).

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

Why not a target? If anywhere in the country is well placed to reduce car use even more, it's London.

I'd genuinely be interested in perceptions from Amsterdam inhabitants about if they think they've got it right, or whether car owners think they've 'lost a war'.

I think Copenhagen is the other 'outlier'.

War is a bit strong amd a bit of a car haters favourite phrase, but there are definitely local politicians with an agenda which is not overtly friendly to cars. Sadie being an example.

See also my replies above which are relevant.

kingstongraham

People centric.

First.Aspect

kingstongraham said:

People centric.

We need a holistic and mindful approach to transport.

shirley_basso

Stevo_666 said:

shirley_basso said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

All journies or road journie

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's because
A) cars are sort of being demonised and
because the infrastructure exists to travel by many alternative methods.

Cars are part of the mix and will, continue to be. I think there needs to be a more sensible discussion about this as opposed to the knee jerk 'less cars = always better' view that some seem to have.

Sensible discussion like 'i like to drive my car for fun' or 'old Agnes who is too frail to walk to the bus stop needs to drive'

Yes there is a need for cars, especially for rural populations but IF (yes it's a huge if) the PT alternatives were as good nationwide as they are in London then that need would be significantly reduced.

As a general view, yes, fewer cars is better. In urban areas for traffic flow, clearer pavements etc. Developing nations for mining of rare earths and metals.

The problem is that everyone is conditioned to the convenience of owning a car.

When you live in central London you get very used to not having one and not even needing one. That's the point - with the £100bn not spent on owning and maintaining cars, the govt could develop something pretty impressive.

The reality is that it's nigh on impossible, sadly.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's not just happened by chance. It's at least 20 years of active effort and still some way to go.

Amsterdam isn't much of an outlier if other Dutch cities and towns are comparable. Copenhagen is much the same. They've just been doing it for longer.

Both much smaller cities than London it should be noted.

And the London change has probably gone far enough, if the majority opposition to Sadiqs ULEZ expansion is anything anything to go by (which he ignored anyway).

There is not demonstrated majority opposition to it.

There's a couple of polls that say 51% in favour, 27% against if the premise in the question is to control emissions (sadiq), and 51% against, 34% in favour if the premise in the question is to raise money (tories).

Keep your dirty car out in the sticks.

MattFalle

rick_chasey said:

E-bikes are the solution to not-flat towns however. They flatten out pretty much everything.

what if you can't ride a bicycle?

bitfucked then, really.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's not just happened by chance. It's at least 20 years of active effort and still some way to go.

Amsterdam isn't much of an outlier if other Dutch cities and towns are comparable. Copenhagen is much the same. They've just been doing it for longer.

Both much smaller cities than London it should be noted.

And the London change has probably gone far enough, if the majority opposition to Sadiqs ULEZ expansion is anything anything to go by (which he ignored anyway).

Not sure what the size compared to London has to do with anything. The supposed opposition ULEZ a load of carefully orchestrated whingers if you ask me given that almost half of Londoners don't even own one. Air pollution is still a problem so there's still work to do.

Stevo_666

shirley_basso said:

Stevo_666 said:

shirley_basso said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

All journies or road journie

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's because
A) cars are sort of being demonised and
because the infrastructure exists to travel by many alternative methods.

Cars are part of the mix and will, continue to be. I think there needs to be a more sensible discussion about this as opposed to the knee jerk 'less cars = always better' view that some seem to have.

Sensible discussion like 'i like to drive my car for fun' or 'old Agnes who is too frail to walk to the bus stop needs to drive'

Yes there is a need for cars, especially for rural populations but IF (yes it's a huge if) the PT alternatives were as good nationwide as they are in London then that need would be significantly reduced.

As a general view, yes, fewer cars is better. In urban areas for traffic flow, clearer pavements etc. Developing nations for mining of rare earths and metals.

The problem is that everyone is conditioned to the convenience of owning a car.

When you live in central London you get very used to not having one and not even needing one. That's the point - with the £100bn not spent on owning and maintaining cars, the govt could develop something pretty impressive.

The reality is that it's nigh on impossible, sadly.

I don't have a big issue with the situation situation those living in the middle of big cities. Used to be in that situation myself.

The £100bn is slightly problematic in that it isn't the governments money - any saving from not having cars belongs to the people who give them up. Unless of course you are saying that the govt will not only stop people from owning cars but also tax them enough to effectively confiscate theose saving. That's a vote winner if ever I heard one...back to the little problem of what people want outside of the Cake Stop bubble. As you say, nigh on impossible in reality - and yet still some people persist with the argument.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

Why not a target? If anywhere in the country is well placed to reduce car use even more, it's London.

I'd genuinely be interested in perceptions from Amsterdam inhabitants about if they think they've got it right, or whether car owners think they've 'lost a war'.

I think Copenhagen is the other 'outlier'.

War is a bit strong amd a bit of a car haters favourite phrase, but there are definitely local politicians with an agenda which is not overtly friendly to cars. Sadie being an example.

See also my replies above which are relevant.

I thought you preferred driving around the countryside anyway.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's not just happened by chance. It's at least 20 years of active effort and still some way to go.

Amsterdam isn't much of an outlier if other Dutch cities and towns are comparable. Copenhagen is much the same. They've just been doing it for longer.

Both much smaller cities than London it should be noted.

And the London change has probably gone far enough, if the majority opposition to Sadiqs ULEZ expansion is anything anything to go by (which he ignored anyway).

There is not demonstrated majority opposition to it.

There's a couple of polls that say 51% in favour, 27% against if the premise in the question is to control emissions (sadiq), and 51% against, 34% in favour if the premise in the question is to raise money (tories).

Keep your dirty car out in the sticks.

Nope.
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/11/16/three-five-londoners-oppose-sadiq-khans-ulez-expansion/

kingstongraham

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's not just happened by chance. It's at least 20 years of active effort and still some way to go.

Amsterdam isn't much of an outlier if other Dutch cities and towns are comparable. Copenhagen is much the same. They've just been doing it for longer.

Both much smaller cities than London it should be noted.

And the London change has probably gone far enough, if the majority opposition to Sadiqs ULEZ expansion is anything anything to go by (which he ignored anyway).

Not sure what the size compared to London has to do with anything. The supposed opposition ULEZ a load of carefully orchestrated whingers if you ask me given that almost half of Londoners don't even own one. Air pollution is still a problem so there's still work to do.

Our local Conservatives sent a flyer through saying this:



Which isn't true.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's not just happened by chance. It's at least 20 years of active effort and still some way to go.

Amsterdam isn't much of an outlier if other Dutch cities and towns are comparable. Copenhagen is much the same. They've just been doing it for longer.

Both much smaller cities than London it should be noted.

And the London change has probably gone far enough, if the majority opposition to Sadiqs ULEZ expansion is anything anything to go by (which he ignored anyway).

There is not demonstrated majority opposition to it.

There's a couple of polls that say 51% in favour, 27% against if the premise in the question is to control emissions (sadiq), and 51% against, 34% in favour if the premise in the question is to raise money (tories).

Keep your dirty car out in the sticks.

Nope.
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/11/16/three-five-londoners-oppose-sadiq-khans-ulez-expansion/

I only mentioned two polls, and that was one of them.

DeVlaeminck

pblakeney said:

It's funny but I'd guess it will happen - if you live just inside the zone why wouldn't you keep a car just outside if at all possible.

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

Interestingly, it looks like they're going to include a congestion charge here in the 'bridge which is £5 a day for using your car, even if you live there.

Presumably that's a usage charge, so you don't incur it if you live in the zone but the car is parked?

Yeah. £5er for every day you actually use your car. So you're gonna pay nearly £2k a year if you want to drive every day.

Presumably that includes you?

Nah. I use it once or twice a fortnight. I've got moss growing in the window seal.

OK, so it does include you, but you only get stung for about £250 a year. Could be quite a lot for some who don't earn much but need to drive.

There are a lot of chickens and eggs in the deprioritising of car transport, not least the economic choices that are taken. I find that most habitual car drivers will insist that nearly all of their car journeys are essential, and base their entire existence around cheap motoring, without considering other possibilities.

If you look at somewhere like London I reckon cars have already been de-prioritised quite a bit. (I saw what you said upthread about this being something that is more for cities and big towns).

It's a bit black and white saying is something essential or non-essential. Pretty sure very few are absolutely essential but there are good reasons for a lot of them. A few examples of these:
- An old dear who is maybe a bit frail and slow moving around might struggle to get to the bus stop. Not essential as she could struggle to get to the bus stop and wait around in the cold and wet.
- My daughter at uni in Liverpool and often works until after dark in the campus library. A bus trip would take her through some pretty ropey parts of town - lone female with a phone and a laptop? Not essential as she could take the chance several times a week.
- Busy day on a weekend for your average bod like me who finds himself going to multiple places in a day to get things done (supermarket for a weeks worth of shopping, get things from a shop or two in town, DIY store to get some heavy things, take stuff to the tip, go to meet friends etc). Not essential but could I get that lot done without a lot of extra time and effort?

fun.

Excellent point - it's easy for us to talk about using public transport but for women after dark it can be a different ball game. Even if the bus stop is just 5 minutes walk from home that isn't always a walk that a woman (or sometimes a man I suppose) considers safe.

shirley_basso

Stevo_666 said:

shirley_basso said:

Stevo_666 said:

shirley_basso said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

All journies or road journie

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Pfft, it's shifted a bit, but to go all Chasey, look at the difference between London or Bristol (or Lyon, come to that) and Amsterdam, and see how far the dial could be shifted, if the will was there. But cars still dominate massively, and will remain so unless the car's primacy in urban environments, both in policy and public perception, can been overturned. We're nowhere near that.

You're going all Chasey by assuming that cars 'dominate massively': Tfls own data for London shows that less than 1/3rd of journeys in london are by private car. And declining.

Amsterdam is an outlier, not necessarily a target.

That's because
A) cars are sort of being demonised and
because the infrastructure exists to travel by many alternative methods.

Cars are part of the mix and will, continue to be. I think there needs to be a more sensible discussion about this as opposed to the knee jerk 'less cars = always better' view that some seem to have.

Sensible discussion like 'i like to drive my car for fun' or 'old Agnes who is too frail to walk to the bus stop needs to drive'

Yes there is a need for cars, especially for rural populations but IF (yes it's a huge if) the PT alternatives were as good nationwide as they are in London then that need would be significantly reduced.

As a general view, yes, fewer cars is better. In urban areas for traffic flow, clearer pavements etc. Developing nations for mining of rare earths and metals.

The problem is that everyone is conditioned to the convenience of owning a car.

When you live in central London you get very used to not having one and not even needing one. That's the point - with the £100bn not spent on owning and maintaining cars, the govt could develop something pretty impressive.

The reality is that it's nigh on impossible, sadly.

I don't have a big issue with the situation situation those living in the middle of big cities. Used to be in that situation myself.

The £100bn is slightly problematic in that it isn't the governments money - any saving from not having cars belongs to the people who give them up. Unless of course you are saying that the govt will not only stop people from owning cars but also tax them enough to effectively confiscate theose saving. That's a vote winner if ever I heard one...back to the little problem of what people want outside of the Cake Stop bubble. As you say, nigh on impossible in reality - and yet still some people persist with the argument.

Discussion
Sensible discussion
Argument