The uphill Struggle

ugo.santalucia

National Hill Climb Champs 2023 will be in Ambleside, up the infamous Struggle road up the Kirkstone pass. 12 minutes for the gods, more like 17 for us struggling vets.
Hopefully they will be able to accommodate a large number of competitors, if not, then it will be a "struggle" just to qualify!
That assuming I will still be in this country next year...

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I assume you have ridden it before? Tough one that with the length.

How serious do you want to get with the hill climbs? In spite of the possible etap, have you thought about spending some money doing some lab testing and getting some coaching advice to improve your training and performance? Getting a proper understanding of your physiology and how you can make the most of training will be more beneficial than a lighter frame or better groupset.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

From a very quick look, interesting profile, two steep ramps split by fairly flat middle section.

~2.5 mile, ~1025ish feet, oof! 🤯

There's a basic version on Rouvy without video.

I'd plot the full climb from around Ambleside on Strava route builder, become a premium member of WahooRGT and send them the gpx file to create a "magic road."

Like you said, for those of us not pro riders in disguise, this climb is going to basically be an uneven FTP effort, with two bits of z5+ with as high a recovery pace as you can manage.

A workout that springs to mind is https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/less-than-60-minutes-to-burn/the-gorby

ugo.santalucia

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I assume you have ridden it before? Tough one that with the length.

How serious do you want to get with the hill climbs? In spite of the possible etap, have you thought about spending some money doing some lab testing and getting some coaching advice to improve your training and performance? Getting a proper understanding of your physiology and how you can make the most of training will be more beneficial than a lighter frame or better groupset.

You are right and I did think about it... question is whether Tabata intervals will make me hate the all thing or not... I also like to do other things, like way too many TTs before the hill climb season, those on coaches have to be a lot more conservative with their efforts.
If I could win my age group medal, I'd probably do it, but I am too far behind at the moment... I was 12th this year of 22, I could get maybe 6th or 7th with serious coaching, but I can't win...

ugo.santalucia

I rode it once... before the all Hill Climb shenanigans, the downhill section is a bit of a momentum breaker...

https://www.strava.com/activities/2553480462

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

I assume you have ridden it before? Tough one that with the length.

How serious do you want to get with the hill climbs? In spite of the possible etap, have you thought about spending some money doing some lab testing and getting some coaching advice to improve your training and performance? Getting a proper understanding of your physiology and how you can make the most of training will be more beneficial than a lighter frame or better groupset.

You are right and I did think about it... question is whether Tabata intervals will make me hate the all thing or not... I also like to do other things, like way too many TTs before the hill climb season, those on coaches have to be a lot more conservative with their efforts.
If I could win my age group medal, I'd probably do it, but I am too far behind at the moment... I was 12th this year of 22, I could get maybe 6th or 7th with serious coaching, but I can't win...

rubbish. of course you can

saying you can't before even turning a wheel means that you won't so you may as well not bother going.

train

turn up

blow doors off

pedal away to pub

sorted

mrb123

What's the process for qualification Ugo?

ugo.santalucia

mrb123 said:

What's the process for qualification Ugo?

We don't know yet for next year... depends how many places they have available, but broadly speaking, Spindata rankings will be used. This is the ranking filtered for the 50-54 category only...

https://www.spindata.co.uk/rankings/hill-climbs?task=rankings.display&year=2022&age_category=Veteran-50-54

MidlandsGrimpeur2

If I could win my age group medal, I'd probably do it, but I am too far behind at the moment... I was 12th this year of 22, I could get maybe 6th or 7th with serious coaching, but I can't win...

You don't know what your limit is until you have seen your numbers, you could easily have the capacity to medal. I think most would be surprised by their untapped potential and how much extra you can squeeze out with training tailored to your specific physiology.

Before I had a lab test 6 or 7 years I would have said I was at around my limit ability wise. Found out I was nowhere near it, my aerobic fitness was rubbish and had plenty of scope to get fitter.

Don't assume it will just be intervals, you would likely be given a mix of sessions to boost different parts of your aerobic/anaerobic fitness to keep it interesting. I haven't done a proper interval session for 2 or 3 years and I can still hold 1 minute at 9 w/kg and over 5 w/kg for 10mins.

ugo.santalucia

To do well at the National, you need to work the all season towards it... neither Feather nor Tom Bell do any other racing. Same among the women. Those who have a long racing season typically don't do very well in October.
I'm not for putting all the eggs in one basket... I have seen enough riders obsessing about that one race and then getting sick a week or two before.
I have a good peak in May, early July and early September... this year I think I did quite well to get to the end of October in better shape, but as it gets cold I am less sharp... probably the mild autumn helped this time

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Thing is, this time around, your training for ~10 mile TTs won't be that different than the sort of training you will need for The Struggle.

This time last year after ~3 weeks flu, I was struggling to do ~200W (~2.5W/Kg) for 18mins. I'd already been hit for six twice before in '21 from my two Covid vaccine jabs that obliterated my mamil fitness (the booster in mid Dec '21 did similar). I'd never have believed you back then, if you told me I was going to do 322W (4.03) for just under 19mins this year on the turbo, or was going to beat my outdoor PBs for fun from March to late July on segments from approx 3mins to 21mins.

Impossible is nothing.

ugo.santalucia

N0bodyOfTheGoat said:

Thing is, this time around, your training for ~10 mile TTs won't be that different than the sort of training you will need for The Struggle.

This time last year after ~3 weeks flu, I was struggling to do ~200W (~2.5W/Kg) for 18mins. I'd already been hit for six twice before in '21 from my two Covid vaccine jabs that obliterated my mamil fitness (the booster in mid Dec '21 did similar). I'd never have believed you back then, if you told me I was going to do 322W (4.03) for just under 19mins this year on the turbo, or was going to beat my outdoor PBs for fun from March to late July on segments from approx 3mins to 21mins.

Impossible is nothing.

I never quite got big lows... even after Covid I was pretty much 100% straightaway. I get my best numbers when I only do indoor trainer stuff, but once spring kicks in, I am not very keen to spend time on the trainer. Once I race outdoors, the numbers drop down. I remember the first 10 I did back in March, straight off the turbo, I was flying, I averaged 280Watt... never quite managed to equal that later in the season. If instead of doing 40 races I only did 10 and prepared for each by training indoors, I would do much better, but boy it would be a dull life!

https://www.strava.com/activities/6811440125

johngti

You have to decide what your priorities are. Do you want to be top 5 with the chance of going higher? Or do you see it as a numbers game where you’re just comparing your progress over time?

My boss, deputy head at a very high pressure grammar school, decided to get back into running following his experience with covid. He was a decent runner at school and uni but purely recreational in more recent years. He set himself some decent challenges along the way but had the goal of being selected for representative sport in the veteran age group. He’s just been selected to run for England at the age of 41. I suspect (in fact I know) his training has been gruelling and not really enjoyable but he stuck with it because he had a clear aim.

My impression from reading your threads is that it’s the “doing well enough to get to participate in the tough stuff” that’s been your focus in which case, enjoy what you’ve got and what you’ve achieved rather than chasing marginal gains. And you know that’s exactly the advice you would have dished out a few years ago before hill climbs took over 😉

ugo.santalucia

johngti said:

You have to decide what your priorities are. Do you want to be top 5 with the chance of going higher? Or do you see it as a numbers game where you’re just comparing your progress over time?

My boss, deputy head at a very high pressure grammar school, decided to get back into running following his experience with covid. He was a decent runner at school and uni but purely recreational in more recent years. He set himself some decent challenges along the way but had the goal of being selected for representative sport in the veteran age group. He’s just been selected to run for England at the age of 41. I suspect (in fact I know) his training has been gruelling and not really enjoyable but he stuck with it because he had a clear aim.

My impression from reading your threads is that it’s the “doing well enough to get to participate in the tough stuff” that’s been your focus in which case, enjoy what you’ve got and what you’ve achieved rather than chasing marginal gains. And you know that’s exactly the advice you would have dished out a few years ago before hill climbs took over 😉

Yes, I basically try to get involved in as much racing as it's fun to do. There are some other targets... the Road Bike National champs could be one, if they don't dump it again a dual carriage outside of Nottingham... I could target the road bike trophy for the Merlin Classic series with some chances of actually winning it... the guy who won it this year is on my level.

I enjoy hill climbs, but they have become popular and very competitive... the winner of the 55+ age group was a minute and a half faster than me and he is in an older age group. The winner of the 60+ is normally on my level but he trained with Clinton Coaching and beat me by about 25 seconds... so that's the kind of improvement I could make by going Tabata crazy (could be more if I responded better to training, but that's the ballpark). Bottom line is that I was 195th, you need to be spectacularly good to make the top 100 these days... our club champion who is in his mid 20s and in an other league, as far as I am concerned, barely managed... is it worth me focussing on a single event, putting all the eggs in one basket, so to speak, with the idea that I could be 150th and maybe 5th in my age group?
BTW: those are quite ambitious targets, that I don't even think I could achieve... but let's say I could for the sake of an argument...

MidlandsGrimpeur2

BTW: those are quite ambitious targets, that I don't even think I could achieve... but let's say I could for the sake of an argument...

That was more my point Ugo. Say you could wave a magic wand and achieve that with a targeted programme of training, would you want to make that commitment or not? It sounds as though that is not your priority which is completely valid. I just think it is worth considering though.

From my own perspective I was happy going along as I was. However, once I had done some initial lab tests and you then have a qualified sports physiologist telling you that you have the raw materials to do x and y, you start to shift your goals and for some people (myself included), it can completely change your aspirations.

Like you have said though, if you are happy racing and doing different things and don't feel that would change, even with coaching, then there is nothing at all wrong with that.

ugo.santalucia

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

BTW: those are quite ambitious targets, that I don't even think I could achieve... but let's say I could for the sake of an argument...

That was more my point Ugo. Say you could wave a magic wand and achieve that with a targeted programme of training, would you want to make that commitment or not? It sounds as though that is not your priority which is completely valid. I just think it is worth considering though.

From my own perspective I was happy going along as I was. However, once I had done some initial lab tests and you then have a qualified sports physiologist telling you that you have the raw materials to do x and y, you start to shift your goals and for some people (myself included), it can completely change your aspirations.

Like you have said though, if you are happy racing and doing different things and don't feel that would change, even with coaching, then there is nothing at all wrong with that.

For the sake of an argument, I wouldn't mind spending a couple of hours being someone's lab rat... I just need to find the right set up... I am a scientist after all and I am a bit sceptical of the "all the gear and no idea" and all the various coaches who got an ABCC qualification out of completing a few online modules... we have someone here at the Uni who is into sport physiology research... it just depends how interested they are in wasting their time in a 50 yo wannabe...

Alternatively, this seems reasonably professional and fairly local to me

https://www.boxnutrition.co.uk/athletetesting

MidlandsGrimpeur2

I use Garry Palmer at Sportstest. I know a few (now absent) forum members used him as well. He has a PhD in Sports Science and was a lecturer at a couple of Universities so he knows his stuff. A 3hr test will give you all the relevant physiological data, and Garry is generous with his advice. If you tell him what your plans are he is usually happy to draw up some training plans for you to go away with.

Not sure what he charges these days, I think it is around £200 for the full lab tests. Always found him to be very knowledgeable and personable and he genuinely enjoys helping people get the best out of their training and improve. I would happily recommend him to anyone.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

He is over in Cannock by the way, so not too far for you Ugo.

MattFalle

ugo.santalucia said:

MidlandsGrimpeur2 said:

BTW: those are quite ambitious targets, that I don't even think I could achieve... but let's say I could for the sake of an argument...

That was more my point Ugo. Say you could wave a magic wand and achieve that with a targeted programme of training, would you want to make that commitment or not? It sounds as though that is not your priority which is completely valid. I just think it is worth considering though.

From my own perspective I was happy going along as I was. However, once I had done some initial lab tests and you then have a qualified sports physiologist telling you that you have the raw materials to do x and y, you start to shift your goals and for some people (myself included), it can completely change your aspirations.

Like you have said though, if you are happy racing and doing different things and don't feel that would change, even with coaching, then there is nothing at all wrong with that.

For the sake of an argument, I wouldn't mind spending a couple of hours being someone's lab rat... I just need to find the right set up... I am a scientist after all and I am a bit sceptical of the "all the gear and no idea" and all the various coaches who got an ABCC qualification out of completing a few online modules... we have someone here at the Uni who is into sport physiology research... it just depends how interested they are in wasting their time in a 50 yo wannabe...

Alternatively, this seems reasonably professional and fairly local to me

https://www.boxnutrition.co.uk/athletetesting

nsh

just contact local uni with a sports science dept and offer yourself as a ldb rat 1/2/3 years always need people.

I did a few sessions st my uni to help people out - same people also did British ski team England/Wales rugby, etc so knew what they were doing

They're happy as they have a test subject you're happy 'cos you're getting tested.

ugo.santalucia

Just found another target for 2022... a local cycling club in Rugby is going to organise a 25 next September to celebrate one of their riders, who was the first in the country to go under the hour in a 25... so anyone going under the hour on a road bike, will receive a one off medal. My PB is 1:03, but I've only done two 25 so I am not a million miles off and I reckon with a bit of work on the FTP and a bit of work on my position, I could hit the magic 59'... I have done that kind of speed on a 10 on a number of occasions, so it should be possible... not easy though!

ugo.santalucia

oxoman said:

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress ugo.

I have also seen that next year's Road Bike TT National Champs will be bang on in the Hill Climb season, on October 1st, possibly not terribly far from here, so that might be another target... I expect the course to be roughly 25 miles, so it ties in well with the other.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

If you aren't spending your cash on etap Ugo, spend it on this instead. Ex pro bike, full eps, bora 35mm, 6.7kg and all for well under 3 grand!

Perfect for hill climbs and road TT. Ridley size up large so you would probably get away with a small.


https://bike-room.com/product/ridley-helium-slx-2019-size-s-campagnolo-record-eps-2x11s/

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Sorry, that is ex VAT, but still a good deal.

ugo.santalucia

Very nice... I don't have that money though... :-)

MidlandsGrimpeur2

Neither do I, sadly!

On a serious note, it is a bloody good deal for whoever can afford it.

ugo.santalucia

It is...

ugo.santalucia

Me thinks that if I want to break the hour on a 25 I need to get more aerodynamic... it's pointless to add Watts if they all crash against a wall of air.
So I reluctantly decided to do a bit of strength training... planks, leg lifts etc, to increase core and hip strength and a bit of work for the triceps, so that I can hold a tucked position for longer...
What a palaver, anyone likes this stuff?

andyrr

ugo.santalucia said:

Me thinks that if I want to break the hour on a 25 I need to get more aerodynamic... it's pointless to add Watts if they all crash against a wall of air.
So I reluctantly decided to do a bit of strength training... planks, leg lifts etc, to increase core and hip strength and a bit of work for the triceps, so that I can hold a tucked position for longer...
What a palaver, anyone likes this stuff?

You’ve probably seen this but I thought it had some useful pointers/reminders for being aero on a road bike.
https://youtu.be/X7zZ4OROgeQ

ugo.santalucia

Basically, that's what I am trying to achieve, position wise... it might be a short 23 rather than a long 19 though...
The GCN guy pontificating there, Oliver, was at the National HC, did well, almost a minute and a half quicker than me...

ugo.santalucia

I am doing some VO2 max interval sessions, but they seem a bit too easy… 110% of FTP for 15/30/60 seconds is not particularly taxing… I otherwise like the session, so I cranked up the FTP by 5% and it feels a bit more appropriate… think I’ll crank it another notch, maybe another 2% to make it into a proper hard session… anyone else finds these VO2 max sessions a bit bland?

MidlandsGrimpeur2

VO2 depends on where your strength lies so to speak. As you have done lots of hill climbs and the relevant training, Ugo, I would expect you to find these intetvals easier. I am the same, naturally better at anaerobic efforts as I have a decent vo2 max and MAP.

Personally, I would be doing 110% of FTP for more like 5-8 minute intervals. For 2 minutes and below, my target would be about 130% of FTP. Like you I would find 110 for 60-90 seconds too easy.