So, how does Pogacar beat Vingegaard?

N0bodyOfTheGoat · July 2022

focuszing723 said:
Roglic must feel like chopped liver.

His fall wasn't that bad was it?

mididoctors · July 2022

rick_chasey said:

mrb123 said:

Lulu93 said:
Are ppl insinuating Vingegaard is doping? I can't quite tell.

I don't think he is, personally, but that's based on nothing more than blind optimism and the fact that he seems like a really nice guy. I'd rather keep the faith until someone presents me with irrefutable evidence. Ditto Pogi and WvA.
This seems a reasonable approach.

They may well all be at it still, but if you allow yourself to be consumed by cynicism then it takes away the enjoyment of watching it.

If I can be really honest, as my formative years for cycling were 1998-2008, I do have quite a strong conflicted nostalgia for some of the murky blood doping scandals and backstories that inevitably accompanied bike races.

I was reading the Friebe Ullrich book last week and going through all the details from the Fuentes scandal, Siberia, the code names, the pet dogs, the assistant suffering from dementia, the fly in, get a blood bag, fly out again, grittiness of it all - I have to say, I found it absolutely thrilling.

Obviously it's all grim, I'm not saying we go back to that, but that sort of sordid, knowing there's a back story you're not seeing on the road, vibe was absolutely thrilling as a fan, even in a very conflicted way.

I hated that period with a passion .it was engaging I guess . But it was clearly the 2 speed times . A bunch of rides on cheat mode others not . Absurd

mididoctors · July 2022

Pross said:
Bernal is still eligible next year too, it feels like forever since his debut.

A lot has happened

rick_chasey · July 2022

mididoctors said:

rick_chasey said:

mrb123 said:

Lulu93 said:
Are ppl insinuating Vingegaard is doping? I can't quite tell.

I don't think he is, personally, but that's based on nothing more than blind optimism and the fact that he seems like a really nice guy. I'd rather keep the faith until someone presents me with irrefutable evidence. Ditto Pogi and WvA.
This seems a reasonable approach.

They may well all be at it still, but if you allow yourself to be consumed by cynicism then it takes away the enjoyment of watching it.

If I can be really honest, as my formative years for cycling were 1998-2008, I do have quite a strong conflicted nostalgia for some of the murky blood doping scandals and backstories that inevitably accompanied bike races.

I was reading the Friebe Ullrich book last week and going through all the details from the Fuentes scandal, Siberia, the code names, the pet dogs, the assistant suffering from dementia, the fly in, get a blood bag, fly out again, grittiness of it all - I have to say, I found it absolutely thrilling.

Obviously it's all grim, I'm not saying we go back to that, but that sort of sordid, knowing there's a back story you're not seeing on the road, vibe was absolutely thrilling as a fan, even in a very conflicted way.
I hated that period with a passion .it was engaging I guess . But it was clearly the 2 speed times . A bunch of rides on cheat mode others not . Absurd

Yeah like I said I got into cycling then. 10-20 years old.

Didn’t know any different.

Hell my first Tour was 1998!

bonk_king · July 2022

Vingegaard is the least of Tadej's problems. Wait while Froomey gets his legs back, lol.

No_Ta_Doctor · August 2022

Apparently Jumbo-Visma have been working with Norwegian researchers during altitude training. They measured blood parameters during the altitude camps instead of just afterwards, and were able to provide input into how to optimise the camps

Link in Danish

https://www.dr.dk/sporten/cykling/tourdefrance/hvad-er-hemmeligheden-bag-vingegaards-succes-norsk-forskning-er-en-del

rick_chasey · August 2022

No_Ta_Doctor said:
Apparently Jumbo-Visma have been working with Norwegian researchers during altitude training. They measured blood parameters during the altitude camps instead of just afterwards, and were able to provide input into how to optimise the camps

Link in Danish

https://www.dr.dk/sporten/cykling/tourdefrance/hvad-er-hemmeligheden-bag-vingegaards-succes-norsk-forskning-er-en-del

World really has moved on if teams are openly talking about doctors measuring their blood again.

Sending laboratory equipment to training camps in the heights was quite a logistical challenge. But it paid off.

dennisn · August 2022

rick_chasey said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:
Apparently Jumbo-Visma have been working with Norwegian researchers during altitude training. They measured blood parameters during the altitude camps instead of just afterwards, and were able to provide input into how to optimise the camps

Link in Danish

https://www.dr.dk/sporten/cykling/tourdefrance/hvad-er-hemmeligheden-bag-vingegaards-succes-norsk-forskning-er-en-del
World really has moved on if teams are openly talking about doctors measuring their blood again.

Sending laboratory equipment to training camps in the heights was quite a logistical challenge. But it paid off.

I'm thinking that it was simply something that they did. Whether anyone really knows if it worked or not is speculation.

rick_chasey · August 2022

dennisn said:

rick_chasey said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:
Apparently Jumbo-Visma have been working with Norwegian researchers during altitude training. They measured blood parameters during the altitude camps instead of just afterwards, and were able to provide input into how to optimise the camps

Link in Danish

https://www.dr.dk/sporten/cykling/tourdefrance/hvad-er-hemmeligheden-bag-vingegaards-succes-norsk-forskning-er-en-del
World really has moved on if teams are openly talking about doctors measuring their blood again.

Sending laboratory equipment to training camps in the heights was quite a logistical challenge. But it paid off.
I'm thinking that it was simply something that they did. Whether anyone really knows if it worked or not is speculation.

Whether what worked?

rick_chasey · January 2023

Bahaha

https://twitter.com/cycling_podcast/status/1611093665283203091?s=46&t=wX_D0prqvhm_p8xWrwSPhQ

josame · January 2023

erm both under 27yrs and it's 2-1 to our boy Pog

what was the question again?

RichN95. · February 2023

I saw Jonas Vingegaard and Primoz Roglic out cycling today

Dorset_Boy · February 2023

RichN95. said:
I saw Jonas Vingegaard and Primoz Roglic out cycling today

Tenerife?
Roglic posted piccies of snow at the top of Teide the other day.

RichN95. · February 2023

Dorset_Boy said:

RichN95. said:
I saw Jonas Vingegaard and Primoz Roglic out cycling today
Tenerife?
Roglic posted piccies of snow at the top of Teide the other day.

Correct. About ten Jumbo-Vismas

seanoconn · February 2023

RichN95. said:
I saw Jonas Vingegaard and Primoz Roglic out cycling today

Did they shout at you to get off their wheel?

m.r.m. · February 2023

Was the other way around.

RichN95. · February 2023

seanoconn said:

RichN95. said:
I saw Jonas Vingegaard and Primoz Roglic out cycling today
Did they shout at you to get off their wheel?

Ha. I was in a car

Dorset_Boy · February 2023

RichN95. said:

seanoconn said:

RichN95. said:
I saw Jonas Vingegaard and Primoz Roglic out cycling today
Did they shout at you to get off their wheel?
Ha. I was in a car

Your duty as a Brit tourist was to knock them off.

Pross · February 2023

Dorset_Boy said:

RichN95. said:

seanoconn said:

RichN95. said:
I saw Jonas Vingegaard and Primoz Roglic out cycling today
Did they shout at you to get off their wheel?
Ha. I was in a car

Your duty as a Brit tourist was to knock them off.

Or at least to blast them and tell them you pay road tax so they should get out of the way.

Lulu93 · August 2023

I thought I'd revisit this thread now that the 2023 TdF has been and gone. I'm a bigger Pogi fan than ever, but Jonas seems pretty unbeatable in the TdF at the moment. What do we think? With Jonas at his current level, does Pogi stand any chance of beating him in 2024?

Is there anyone else who could give Jonas a run for his money? I.e. Remco or maybe even Roglic if he goes to another team? I certainly excited to see Remco v Jonas in the Vuelta, but appreciate it's very different to the TdF.

pblakeney · August 2023

Pog in good form and good health at the start would be a beginning.
Possibly cut back on some of the Classics for some targeted training.

kingstongraham · August 2023

Agree - he should not have a crash before the tour.

No_Ta_Doctor · August 2023

He should get serious about TT training, Jonas was doing 3 sessions a week on his TT bike the whole year, and it paid off in how he could take those corners and how aero he could stay while putting the power down.

Jumbo-Visma looked at wearing him out for the third week, it seemed to work, so he could also try to keep his powder dry early - though clearly he will most likely need the bonus seconds where he can get them, Roglic style.

Would also be worth investigating if there was anything that could be improved in nutrition and rest to make sure he got into the third week in good shape.

UAE tried to use Yates as a double threat - like J-V did with Jonas & Roglic in 22 - but Jonas didn't bite, presumably because he knew he'd destroy Yates in the TT and could at least match him in the mountains if he needed. Maybe if they can get Ayuso to look more threatening it could work

As for others / The Vuelta.... I don't know what Jonas is looking for in the Vuelta, he could feasibly be there just to help Roglic and be a plan B. They could just be testing to see how it goes with holding form from the Tour. Even though it was in his plans for quite a while (unannounced) it's not his main target, still just an add-on after the Tour. So I wouldn't read all that much into a Remco v Jonas matchup just yet.

That said, if Remco can match Jonas in the high mountains (in general, not just at the Vuelta) then he'll be the one to beat, his TT is the best in the game. Roglic isn't a match at all, even at another team - if he was then J-V would be using him at the Tour. At UAE he could be that feasible double threat though

gsk82 · August 2023

Vingergaard did the best time trial in the 15 years I've been watching cycling. Based on that he's the one to beat in time trials.

No_Ta_Doctor · August 2023

gsk82 said:
Vingergaard did the best time trial in the 15 years I've been watching cycling. Based on that he's the one to beat in time trials.

It was fantastic, but would you make him favourite if he'd rocked up to the worlds?

rick_chasey · August 2023

No_Ta_Doctor said:

gsk82 said:
Vingergaard did the best time trial in the 15 years I've been watching cycling. Based on that he's the one to beat in time trials.
It was fantastic, but would you make him favourite if he'd rocked up to the worlds?

If it has a big ol mountain in it.

Lulu93 · August 2023

rick_chasey said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

gsk82 said:
Vingergaard did the best time trial in the 15 years I've been watching cycling. Based on that he's the one to beat in time trials.
It was fantastic, but would you make him favourite if he'd rocked up to the worlds?
If it has a big ol mountain in it.

And came after two weeks of hard racing...!

m.r.m. · August 2023

Regarding Vingegaard going to the Vuelta, I don't think he is going there to win. I think JV saw Remco (most likely) being stronger than Roglic at the Giro and decided to boost team strength by adding him as a foil. Remco will have to respect him which allows Roglic to wheelsuck Remco and beat him via bonus seconds or counter him in 1-2 decisive stages.

So, how does Pogacar beat Vingegaard?

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