So, how does Pogacar beat Vingegaard?
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What are they on? Is it some wonder EPO we've not heard of? I'd be surprised if that's the case.
Where's cuttingedgemuscle when you need it....1 -
Ahem. As always, The Clinic is that way ➡️1
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This seems a reasonable approach.Lulu93 said:Are ppl insinuating Vingegaard is doping? I can't quite tell.
I don't think he is, personally, but that's based on nothing more than blind optimism and the fact that he seems like a really nice guy. I'd rather keep the faith until someone presents me with irrefutable evidence. Ditto Pogi and WvA.
They may well all be at it still, but if you allow yourself to be consumed by cynicism then it takes away the enjoyment of watching it.
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This won't change your mind at all if you're a WvA sceptic, but I'm a pedant so here we go. WvA actually finished over a minute down on Pogi on Hautacam - so yes, he dropped him, but he couldn't keep that pace going and he dropped back quite considerably once he stopped pushing. And he didn't win the time trial the next day - Hautacam was stage 18, the time trial was stage 20. He got dropped by McNulty on stage 17, he's not completely inhuman.Dorset_Boy said:I'm less concerned about Jonas's performance than wonder Wout's. Day after day forcing the break, and still there as last man for his team leader on HC climbs......
On Hautacam he literally parked up, then rode comfortably with Poig and beat G.....
He then wins the TT the next day.....
I really, really hope it's just he is unbelievably talented.
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^you'll fit in well here
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I'll say that the science is at a cutting edge but just look at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psRm4e_nuWw and thats before we get to doctors, physios, nutrition. Even got Orla on the case
https://www.teamjumbovisma.com/video/winningtogether/the-next-top-mechanic-aflevering-1-getting-to-know-each-other/1 -
Quite some set upamrushton said:I'll say that the science is at a cutting edge but just look at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psRm4e_nuWw and thats before we get to doctors, physios, nutrition. Even got Orla on the case
https://www.teamjumbovisma.com/video/winningtogether/the-next-top-mechanic-aflevering-1-getting-to-know-each-other/1 -
That’s the thing, isn’t it - we know what affects and enhances human performance, blood oxygen transportation etc. All this is easily detected these days, so the tinfoilers come up with two methods. Either it’s a new, undetectable drug (conveniently they don’t tell us exactly what this drug does to enhance performance that is different what what we already know about human physiology), or it’s that the whole system is corrupt and teams are doing what they want.rick_chasey said:Main question you need to ask is doping with what.
Back in the bad old days the rumours were always specific to the drug.1 -
Yeah. Post 2010 most of the big scandals are around corrupt testing rather than new drugs.
WADA budget is half of what it was and during rona testing was less, so maybe some riders have a bit more room to sail with re doping.
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If I can be really honest, as my formative years for cycling were 1998-2008, I do have quite a strong conflicted nostalgia for some of the murky blood doping scandals and backstories that inevitably accompanied bike races.mrb123 said:
This seems a reasonable approach.Lulu93 said:Are ppl insinuating Vingegaard is doping? I can't quite tell.
I don't think he is, personally, but that's based on nothing more than blind optimism and the fact that he seems like a really nice guy. I'd rather keep the faith until someone presents me with irrefutable evidence. Ditto Pogi and WvA.
They may well all be at it still, but if you allow yourself to be consumed by cynicism then it takes away the enjoyment of watching it.
I was reading the Friebe Ullrich book last week and going through all the details from the Fuentes scandal, Siberia, the code names, the pet dogs, the assistant suffering from dementia, the fly in, get a blood bag, fly out again, grittiness of it all - I have to say, I found it absolutely thrilling.
Obviously it's all grim, I'm not saying we go back to that, but that sort of sordid, knowing there's a back story you're not seeing on the road, vibe was absolutely thrilling as a fan, even in a very conflicted way.1 -
Out of interest how are The Clinic and Twitter taking to the JV dominance? On here it feels like there are far fewer insinuations than there were when Sky were dominant and I'm not sure if that is down to a dislike of Sky and everything Murdoch related / dislike of British cycling or if I'm just seeing less of the chat as the trolls that used to show up every July are stuck under their bridges and no longer commenting on here.
For me I'll carrying on applying the believe it until I start seeing any reasonable evidence to the contrary rule (and performances alone aren't evidence) but I can see why people might question some of the performances.1 -
You forgot the top secret illegal technology that would be worth billions in a commercial market but is somehow only used in a relatively niche, low budget sport.norvernrob said:
That’s the thing, isn’t it - we know what affects and enhances human performance, blood oxygen transportation etc. All this is easily detected these days, so the tinfoilers come up with two methods. Either it’s a new, undetectable drug (conveniently they don’t tell us exactly what this drug does to enhance performance that is different what what we already know about human physiology), or it’s that the whole system is corrupt and teams are doing what they want.rick_chasey said:Main question you need to ask is doping with what.
Back in the bad old days the rumours were always specific to the drug.2 -
Bringing it back to bikes.
I think he will have learned valuable lessons in both the RVV and TDF and wont be being too over confident in future !0 -
No idea what the poison might be, but there seem to be a number of noticeable changes since 2020:rick_chasey said:What are they on? Is it some wonder EPO we've not heard of? I'd be surprised if that's the case.
Where's cuttingedgemuscle when you need it....- The racing has got considerably faster, and is considerably faster each and every day. I don't think this can be palmed off as equipment as you've had people like Greg van Avermaet saying he was putting out his best ever numbers and struggling in the autobus.
- Despite going full gas pretty much every day, the times on the climbs are largely back to those from the 90s and early 00s. Again, there has been a noticeable jump in the last few years compared to the "Sky era", so it's hard to see how that jump can be attributed to equipment, training, diet etc.
- Racers are going full gas throughout the season now, and you don't really get riders targeting one or two key events and the rest being subservient to that anymore, which again is a marked shift from the last 25 years of riding.
- There was an enormous drop in out of competition testing during 2020, yet since Operation Aderlass there hasn't been a rider caught in the world tour.
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thsts is absolutrly mega!roscoe said:
Quite some set upamrushton said:I'll say that the science is at a cutting edge but just look at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psRm4e_nuWw and thats before we get to doctors, physios, nutrition. Even got Orla on the case
https://www.teamjumbovisma.com/video/winningtogether/the-next-top-mechanic-aflevering-1-getting-to-know-each-other/
do the other teams have same/similar?
its a ridiculously cool, clinical, efficient and motivational set up.
Plus it'll have gym, rehab,med, massage, etc etc etc..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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OK, a question for the doubters. Could WvA/ Vingegaard / Team JV ever definitely prove to you they are clean? Or would you basically be doubting forever, waiting for the proof that they were up to no good all along?0
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That's the problem with doping conspiracists, they always want someone to prove the riders are clean as their 'evidence' is that the rider / team is too good and are faster than previous dopers. It's impossible to convince them otherwise because you can't prove they are clean. Never tested positive = yeah, but Lance never tested positive etc.Lulu93 said:OK, a question for the doubters. Could WvA/ Vingegaard / Team JV ever definitely prove to you they are clean? Or would you basically be doubting forever, waiting for the proof that they were up to no good all along?
They'll also eventually play the no smoke without fire card ignoring the fact they are the ones making the smoke.2 -
That’s the problem with conspiracists in general. They have always got the come back
“ Well you would say that” at which point it’s time to move on and live your life.0 -
Also you can't prove a negative0
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The key word with doping conspiracists is "responder".
Their simplistic theory being that the winner of a GT is not the best rider, but the best responder.
Then, as Pross says, it's down to someone to disprove this unproven. Can't do it? Well, that must be proof they are right.
Bonkers.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.1 -
According to Johann Bruyneel, Vingegaard was signed off of beating a Strava KOM. One in Calpe which all the pro's ride and was held by TJ van Garderen. So, he was an exceptional climber even prior to joining JV. Obviously, being a pro and winning the Tour are further steps, but the talent was clearly there.DeVlaeminck said:It's possible certain riders just respond better to certain modern training techniques and supplements such as altitude camps and ketones.
These things only really come into a rider's world at world tour level and possibly Vingegaard has just benefitted more than others either through Jumbo just being better at finding marginal gains (not all teams are equal) or because his physiology just responds unusually well to cutting edge rider preparation. Or maybe Vingegaard's training was just not great before he went to Jumbo - who knows.
The other thing is Vingegaard is not really a late developer in historical terms - it's just that we now have some unusually early developers. If Ving has trodden a more traditional path it's not really surprising if his breakthrough has come at a more traditional age. Or yes he might be juiced off his t its - but I don't really think he is - so few are getting busted these days compared to say 15 years ago it just seems unlikely doping plays anything like the same role.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20231 -
Going back to the Vuelta 2020, I found a couple of links to stage reports for the Angliru. This was probably where Vingegaard first showed himself
After putting in a shift to whittle the leaders down to 8 or 9 he was dropped when attacks started.
He finished off the day helping George Bennett up to the flamme rouge
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/vuelta-a-espana/five-talking-points-from-stage-12-of-the-vuelta-a-espana-2020-474449
And from VeloNews:
"Jumbo-Visma proved yet again it’s the strongest team in the race, with five yellow jackets pacing Roglič on the final assault up the Angliru. Robert Gesink and George Bennett took pulls, before Danish sensation Jonas Vingegaard took over as the lead group dwindled to less than a dozen survivors."Warning No formatter is installed for the format1 -
just out of interest, why didn't Ving win white and yellow like Pog last year? best placed rider under 26.
just curious and am probably missing something obvs as normal..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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It's due to his age.MattFalle said:just out of interest, why didn't Ving win white and yellow like Pog last year? best placed rider under 26.
just curious and am probably missing something obvs as normal.0 -
White jersey is for riders under 26 on Jan 1st following the tour - Vingegaard was born in December 96, so is too old this year.0
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Ah - gotcha - grazie.
I stupidly did a quick Wiki that said he was 25 but above makes perfect sense - grazie again..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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It does seem like it would make sense for the white jersey to the best tour debutant. Or for them to reduce the age limit. Pogi could be winning it next year too.0
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Roglic must feel like chopped liver.0
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Bernal is still eligible next year too, it feels like forever since his debut.0
