So, how does Pogacar beat Vingegaard?
Comments
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Cobo? I'm sure there were others.DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?jdee84 said:
I think everyone was probably surprised by that Giro win and I'd be shocked if he ever came close to winning another one, a top ten for him in another Grand Tour would be a great result.roscoe said:
Makes you wonder why Sivakov has not progressed into a GC contender. Or Tao for that matter, other than his Giro he's been fairly quiet.blazing_saddles said:
He obviously went too deep with that effort, as he DNF'd the first road stage!DeVlaeminck said:How quickly you all forget his prologue win at the 2018 Giro della Valle d'Aosta - nobody puts 10 seconds into Stefan de Bod without being pretty special...
https://youtu.be/o88SO1-JV-I
He hit my radar when he won the penultimate stage of the 2019 Tour of Poland, taking the leader's jersey.
He blew up the next day and rolled home 14 minutes down.
That's the year Pavel Sivakov won the GC.
Not a dig at him, when I first signed up for the Cycling+ forum a Giro win would have you number 1 in the threads about the greatest ever male British road cyclist (probably ahead of the likes of both Millars, Elliott, Hoban etc) but I don't think he's even been on the podium in any other stage race.0 -
Re Vingegaard's development, the main show of form was probably the Vuelta '20, where he did some really good work for Roglic. That at least should have shown what he was capable of on a climb, if not that he could maintain it for 3 weeks.
Coppa e Bartali might not have had the biggest names to compete against, but he seriously ripped that race apart, winning two stages (and a 2nd place on the last stage where he attacked with Honoré) as well as the overall.
He was comfortably beaten by Pog in T-A, but Pog always has strong early season form for the UAE tour.
What might have been more apparent in Denmark during the 2021 tour (we followed this *very* closely) was just how careful JV were with him. They really tried to remove any pressure from him, stressed time and time again that he'd be given support (after Roglic abandoned) but that he was one for the future. I think as much as anything they probably worked hard on his psyche - he used to be throwing up level of nervous before races as a junior, and is known to have a serious case of feeling he has a duty to deliver to everyone who's supported him (Cav has the same, I think).
Lastly, it might be worth noting that his birthday is in mid December - at jnr levels that means he's always been the youngest in his age group. We know from many sports that this can be an issue (it's been studied most in football I think).
It's clear that something clicked last year though, and I think it was largely psychologicalWarning No formatter is installed for the format1 -
TGH had health issues 2021 ...just coming back"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0
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TheBigBean said:
Cobo? I'm sure there were others.DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?jdee84 said:
I think everyone was probably surprised by that Giro win and I'd be shocked if he ever came close to winning another one, a top ten for him in another Grand Tour would be a great result.roscoe said:
Makes you wonder why Sivakov has not progressed into a GC contender. Or Tao for that matter, other than his Giro he's been fairly quiet.blazing_saddles said:
He obviously went too deep with that effort, as he DNF'd the first road stage!DeVlaeminck said:How quickly you all forget his prologue win at the 2018 Giro della Valle d'Aosta - nobody puts 10 seconds into Stefan de Bod without being pretty special...
https://youtu.be/o88SO1-JV-I
He hit my radar when he won the penultimate stage of the 2019 Tour of Poland, taking the leader's jersey.
He blew up the next day and rolled home 14 minutes down.
That's the year Pavel Sivakov won the GC.
Not a dig at him, when I first signed up for the Cycling+ forum a Giro win would have you number 1 in the threads about the greatest ever male British road cyclist (probably ahead of the likes of both Millars, Elliott, Hoban etc) but I don't think he's even been on the podium in any other stage race.
Wasn't Cobo subsequently DQed and Froome given that Vuelta?
I didn't check Pereira's palmares
so he may be in the mix- I don't think he had that Tour taken off him did he ? - and that bald American chap that won a Vuelta does have a few decent podiums to his name so better than TGH.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Froome?DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Wasn't Cobo subsequently DQed and Froome given that Vuelta?
Yes, 8 years later, but this is cycling, so I sometimes overlook things like that.DeVlaeminck said:TheBigBean said:
Cobo? I'm sure there were others.DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?jdee84 said:
I think everyone was probably surprised by that Giro win and I'd be shocked if he ever came close to winning another one, a top ten for him in another Grand Tour would be a great result.roscoe said:
Makes you wonder why Sivakov has not progressed into a GC contender. Or Tao for that matter, other than his Giro he's been fairly quiet.blazing_saddles said:
He obviously went too deep with that effort, as he DNF'd the first road stage!DeVlaeminck said:How quickly you all forget his prologue win at the 2018 Giro della Valle d'Aosta - nobody puts 10 seconds into Stefan de Bod without being pretty special...
https://youtu.be/o88SO1-JV-I
He hit my radar when he won the penultimate stage of the 2019 Tour of Poland, taking the leader's jersey.
He blew up the next day and rolled home 14 minutes down.
That's the year Pavel Sivakov won the GC.
Not a dig at him, when I first signed up for the Cycling+ forum a Giro win would have you number 1 in the threads about the greatest ever male British road cyclist (probably ahead of the likes of both Millars, Elliott, Hoban etc) but I don't think he's even been on the podium in any other stage race.
Wasn't Cobo subsequently DQed and Froome given that Vuelta?
I didn't check Pereira's palmares
so he may be in the mix- I don't think he had that Tour taken off him did he ? - and that bald American chap that won a Vuelta does have a few decent podiums to his name so better than TGH.0 -
So, besides the fact that he finished the same as JV, 2nd in the 2012 TDF, we have:tailwindhome said:
Froome?DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?
2011 Vuelta 1st.
2012 Vuelta 4th.
Then, before he won his first Tour in 2013, he was 2nd in T-A, 1st in Oman, 1st in Romandie and 1st in the Dauphine.
Maybe you want to re-think?"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
At the time, he hadn't got 1st place in the 2011 vuelta yet.blazing_saddles said:
So, besides the fact that he finished the same as JV, 2nd in the 2012 TDF, we have:tailwindhome said:
Froome?DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?
2011 Vuelta 1st.
2012 Vuelta 4th.
Then, before he won his first Tour in 2013, he was 2nd in T-A, 1st in Oman, 1st in Romandie and 1st in the Dauphine.
Maybe you want to re-think?0 -
Okay so 2nd.kingstongraham said:
At the time, he hadn't got 1st place in the 2011 vuelta yet.blazing_saddles said:
So, besides the fact that he finished the same as JV, 2nd in the 2012 TDF, we have:tailwindhome said:
Froome?DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?
2011 Vuelta 1st.
2012 Vuelta 4th.
Then, before he won his first Tour in 2013, he was 2nd in T-A, 1st in Oman, 1st in Romandie and 1st in the Dauphine.
Maybe you want to re-think?
Doesn’t make a great deal of difference to the point though."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Development is also not linear. Some people are world beaters at junior level, but don't keep progressing. Others are good, but become really special later on. And a rare few are always elite and remain elite (Ronaldo, Ronaldo, Messi, Lebron James, MvdP...)No_Ta_Doctor said:Re Vingegaard's development, the main show of form was probably the Vuelta '20, where he did some really good work for Roglic. That at least should have shown what he was capable of on a climb, if not that he could maintain it for 3 weeks.
Coppa e Bartali might not have had the biggest names to compete against, but he seriously ripped that race apart, winning two stages (and a 2nd place on the last stage where he attacked with Honoré) as well as the overall.
He was comfortably beaten by Pog in T-A, but Pog always has strong early season form for the UAE tour.
What might have been more apparent in Denmark during the 2021 tour (we followed this *very* closely) was just how careful JV were with him. They really tried to remove any pressure from him, stressed time and time again that he'd be given support (after Roglic abandoned) but that he was one for the future. I think as much as anything they probably worked hard on his psyche - he used to be throwing up level of nervous before races as a junior, and is known to have a serious case of feeling he has a duty to deliver to everyone who's supported him (Cav has the same, I think).
Lastly, it might be worth noting that his birthday is in mid December - at jnr levels that means he's always been the youngest in his age group. We know from many sports that this can be an issue (it's been studied most in football I think).
It's clear that something clicked last year though, and I think it was largely psychological
Mohoric beat Alaphilippe at juniors, Kwiatkowski beat Sagan regularly (though who would take his stellar palmares over Sagan's at the pro's), MvdP mostly beat WVA, but now it seems WVA has taken a step beyond MvdP (and beyond pretty much everyone else).
That is what makes scouting so difficult. Vingegaard always had it in him. He just needed to put it all together.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
I agree with this. I don't see anything odd or suspicious about Vingegaard's development. It just happens at different speeds for different people.m.r.m. said:
Development is also not linear. Some people are world beaters at junior level, but don't keep progressing. Others are good, but become really special later on. And a rare few are always elite and remain elite (Ronaldo, Ronaldo, Messi, Lebron James, MvdP...)
Mohoric beat Alaphilippe at juniors, Kwiatkowski beat Sagan regularly (though who would take his stellar palmares over Sagan's at the pro's), MvdP mostly beat WVA, but now it seems WVA has taken a step beyond MvdP (and beyond pretty much everyone else).
That is what makes scouting so difficult. Vingegaard always had it in him. He just needed to put it all together.
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CQ's scoring "development" graphs for the two main protagonists.Lulu93 said:
I agree with this. I don't see anything odd or suspicious about Vingegaard's development. It just happens at different speeds for different people.m.r.m. said:
Development is also not linear. Some people are world beaters at junior level, but don't keep progressing. Others are good, but become really special later on. And a rare few are always elite and remain elite (Ronaldo, Ronaldo, Messi, Lebron James, MvdP...)
Mohoric beat Alaphilippe at juniors, Kwiatkowski beat Sagan regularly (though who would take his stellar palmares over Sagan's at the pro's), MvdP mostly beat WVA, but now it seems WVA has taken a step beyond MvdP (and beyond pretty much everyone else).
That is what makes scouting so difficult. Vingegaard always had it in him. He just needed to put it all together.
Guess which one is which.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.1 -
That would've been impressive, given that neither of them rode it.DeVlaeminck said:No Vingegaard has 3 podiums on stage races before this Tour - those are the races Wikipedia considers important enough to list on it's stage race matrix. He probably could have beaten Roglic at the Tour of Switzerland this year too.
I missed TGHs Alpes podium as that race doesn't make wikipedia's cut.0 -
If one were to be trying to make a case for the defence (I want him to be clean, but have my suspicions), I'd suggest the 2020 Vuelta is by far the strongest pillar. Didn't someone (Froome?) insist that a hard Vuelta was key to a successful following season? In 2020, not only did Vingegaard put in a significant amount of effort on behalf of Roglic (penultimate mountain domestique before Kuss, if I recall correctly), but it was much later in the year than usual. A possible explanation for his stellar start to 2021, which gave him the confidence boost he needed?blazing_saddles said:
CQ's scoring "development" graphs for the two main protagonists.Lulu93 said:
I agree with this. I don't see anything odd or suspicious about Vingegaard's development. It just happens at different speeds for different people.m.r.m. said:
Development is also not linear. Some people are world beaters at junior level, but don't keep progressing. Others are good, but become really special later on. And a rare few are always elite and remain elite (Ronaldo, Ronaldo, Messi, Lebron James, MvdP...)
Mohoric beat Alaphilippe at juniors, Kwiatkowski beat Sagan regularly (though who would take his stellar palmares over Sagan's at the pro's), MvdP mostly beat WVA, but now it seems WVA has taken a step beyond MvdP (and beyond pretty much everyone else).
That is what makes scouting so difficult. Vingegaard always had it in him. He just needed to put it all together.
Guess which one is which.1 -
Good spot !!andyp said:
That would've been impressive, given that neither of them rode it.DeVlaeminck said:No Vingegaard has 3 podiums on stage races before this Tour - those are the races Wikipedia considers important enough to list on it's stage race matrix. He probably could have beaten Roglic at the Tour of Switzerland this year too.
I missed TGHs Alpes podium as that race doesn't make wikipedia's cut.
He probably could have beaten him at the Dauphine .[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Rethink the linear nature of time?blazing_saddles said:
So, besides the fact that he finished the same as JV, 2nd in the 2012 TDF, we have:tailwindhome said:
Froome?DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?
2011 Vuelta 1st.
2012 Vuelta 4th.
Then, before he won his first Tour in 2013, he was 2nd in T-A, 1st in Oman, 1st in Romandie and 1st in the Dauphine.
Maybe you want to re-think?
Prior to the 2011 Vuelta Froome has a palmares full of nothing.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
tailwindhome said:
Rethink the linear nature of time?blazing_saddles said:
So, besides the fact that he finished the same as JV, 2nd in the 2012 TDF, we have:tailwindhome said:
Froome?DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?
2011 Vuelta 1st.
2012 Vuelta 4th.
Then, before he won his first Tour in 2013, he was 2nd in T-A, 1st in Oman, 1st in Romandie and 1st in the Dauphine.
Maybe you want to re-think?
Prior to the 2011 Vuelta Froome has a palmares full of nothing.
But by the time he won that Vuelta he had six Grand Tour wins. The 2011 Vuelta is GT designed by Christopher NolanTwitter: @RichN950 -
He was winning GTs in his sleep by that point.RichN95. said:tailwindhome said:
Rethink the linear nature of time?blazing_saddles said:
So, besides the fact that he finished the same as JV, 2nd in the 2012 TDF, we have:tailwindhome said:
Froome?DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?
2011 Vuelta 1st.
2012 Vuelta 4th.
Then, before he won his first Tour in 2013, he was 2nd in T-A, 1st in Oman, 1st in Romandie and 1st in the Dauphine.
Maybe you want to re-think?
Prior to the 2011 Vuelta Froome has a palmares full of nothing.
But by the time he won the Vuelta he had six Grand Tour wins
To be fair I think I misunderstood what and who was actually being discussed there
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Okay, if you want to move the goalposts to u23, which is what we are now talking about, things don't really change.tailwindhome said:
Rethink the linear nature of time?blazing_saddles said:
So, besides the fact that he finished the same as JV, 2nd in the 2012 TDF, we have:tailwindhome said:
Froome?DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?
2011 Vuelta 1st.
2012 Vuelta 4th.
Then, before he won his first Tour in 2013, he was 2nd in T-A, 1st in Oman, 1st in Romandie and 1st in the Dauphine.
Maybe you want to re-think?
Prior to the 2011 Vuelta Froome has a palmares full of nothing.
Froome's first full European season as a junior was 2007: 2 wins and 4 podiums.
At the same age, Vingegaard won that prologue and a team time trial.
1 podium in a road stage."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Meanwhile, Pog's 23, on a multi million pound contract and seems to be enjoying his racing.1
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That's impressive from Froome alright now.blazing_saddles said:
Okay, if you want to move the goalposts to u23, which is what we are now talking about, things don't really change.tailwindhome said:
Rethink the linear nature of time?blazing_saddles said:
So, besides the fact that he finished the same as JV, 2nd in the 2012 TDF, we have:tailwindhome said:
Froome?DeVlaeminck said:
Has there ever been a grand tour winner with an otherwise less impressive palmares?
2011 Vuelta 1st.
2012 Vuelta 4th.
Then, before he won his first Tour in 2013, he was 2nd in T-A, 1st in Oman, 1st in Romandie and 1st in the Dauphine.
Maybe you want to re-think?
Prior to the 2011 Vuelta Froome has a palmares full of nothing.
Froome's first full European season as a junior was 2007: 2 wins and 4 podiums.
At the same age, Vingegaard won that prologue and a team time trial.
1 podium in a road stage.
Clear and obvious gap in quality there.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Are ppl insinuating Vingegaard is doping? I can't quite tell.
I don't think he is, personally, but that's based on nothing more than blind optimism and the fact that he seems like a really nice guy. I'd rather keep the faith until someone presents me with irrefutable evidence. Ditto Pogi and WvA.1 -
Nice guys dope too, of course.
Not that I think Vingegaard is doping, necessarily, it's just that using whether seem nice or not is not a decent criteria.
As for irrefutable evidence, there was lots of that for Armstrong but people still believed he was clean.0 -
It's possible certain riders just respond better to certain modern training techniques and supplements such as altitude camps and ketones.
These things only really come into a rider's world at world tour level and possibly Vingegaard has just benefitted more than others either through Jumbo just being better at finding marginal gains (not all teams are equal) or because his physiology just responds unusually well to cutting edge rider preparation. Or maybe Vingegaard's training was just not great before he went to Jumbo - who knows.
The other thing is Vingegaard is not really a late developer in historical terms - it's just that we now have some unusually early developers. If Ving has trodden a more traditional path it's not really surprising if his breakthrough has come at a more traditional age. Or yes he might be juiced off his t its - but I don't really think he is - so few are getting busted these days compared to say 15 years ago it just seems unlikely doping plays anything like the same role.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1 -
Nah.Lulu93 said:Are ppl insinuating Vingegaard is doping? I can't quite tell.
I don't think he is, personally, but that's based on nothing more than blind optimism and the fact that he seems like a really nice guy. I'd rather keep the faith until someone presents me with irrefutable evidence. Ditto Pogi and WvA.
It just comes with the territory. Payback time for all the shiite thrown at Sky during the Froome and Wiggins years.
Much of which came from across the channel and the land of Jumbo.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.1 -
Main question you need to ask is doping with what.
Back in the bad old days the rumours were always specific to the drug.0 -
For clarity, I'm not suggesting anyone is doping
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Oh I know it's not exactly solid evidence, but people seem to be making insinuations without anything to back it up other than Jonas being good at cycling, so I'm not sure it's any worse than that!andyp said:Nice guys dope too, of course.
Not that I think Vingegaard is doping, necessarily, it's just that using whether seem nice or not is not a decent criteria.
As for irrefutable evidence, there was lots of that for Armstrong but people still believed he was clean.
We had the same questions about Pogi after he hammered Roglic on that time trial in 2020, but there has never been anything to back them up. And maybe I'll be proved wrong in 10 years time, but I doubt there ever will be.
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I'm less concerned about Jonas's performance than wonder Wout's. Day after day forcing the break, and still there as last man for his team leader on HC climbs......
On Hautacam he literally parked up, then rode comfortably with Poig and beat G.....
He then wins the TT the next day.....
I really, really hope it's just he is unbelievably talented.2 -
Pog had 1 bad day. had he stayed on the wheel he may have won. But right now that JV team is the one to beat. just having WvA about cools everything down. put him in the break and people are sitting up. Put him on the front and he can set a high tempo or just close a gap. UAE had a weaker team - most of the others did too. Something is happening in that team. LaPorte had 8 years of also ran at Cofidis now he's A grade. Re Froome, lets not forget he was finishing at Sky in 2011(?) then he suddenly lifted the game. Wiggins was on The Move last week and talked about his Tour win. His focus was on that 2012 Tour to the exclusion of everything else. Maybe thats the thing at JV. You have a team of high level players and everyone wants to lift it higher. QS have had some stellar days doing that.
Who would have thought that Alaphillipe would have the MJ as long as he did and Richard Moore famously said that Thomas wouldnt win the TdF the year he won it0
