TDF 2022:- Stage 17: Saint Gaudens - Peyragudes 129.7km ***Spoilers***

RichN95.

inseine said:

People go crazy for each new bit of tech, then don't think the pros are benefitting from 25 years or bike development.

It's funny. The peak climbing perfomances now can't match those of the mid 90s. Yet if Ashton Lambie did the team pursuit at the 1996 Olympics on his own, he would have had the fastest qualifying time by 10 seconds.

kingstongraham

I didn't think that was a snooze today. Can't really understand where that ride came from, but maybe he's just a bit fresher due to only riding part of each day at the limit for two weeks, and maybe he shocked himself at riding almost everyone off his wheel.

RichN95.

People should remember that while McNulty looks 43 years old he is actually only 24

webboo

I don’t know who it was but at one point there was a guy in UEA jersey on the front who had a passing resemblance to Charlie Chaplin.
Given how fast he could move in those silent movies no wonder UEA were dropping everyone.

mididoctors

A lot of collapsing firm going on

RichN95. said:

mididoctors said:

I don't know ....it's odd McNulty was no where yesterday when a completely bolloxed mjika was throwing shapes till his chain broke .... I am benefit of the doubt.

Fact check: Yesterday's result



He had been in the break, like Van Aert

Yeah your right he waited at the top with Martinez and WvA

No_Ta_Doctor

30 years ago riders were slumming it round France in a clapped out bus and washing their own kit in the hotel sink.

Here endeth the lesson in how nothing has changed in cycling

Pross

phreak said:

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

And yet he was within realistic touching distance of Pog at the start of the day.

The point I was making is that most on here would have said Thomas was beyond his best (and some have previously said he was the worst ever Tour winner) yet he's within 5 minutes which I suspect is a fairly normal gap for third place by this stage of a Tour.

mididoctors

Well have we decided now that McNulty's performance while surprising and awesome is not per sae extraterrestrial?

RichN95.

mididoctors said:

Well have we decided now that McNulty's performance while surprising and awesome is not per sae extraterrestrial?

Surprising in that we haven't seen him do it before. But he's young and not really needed to ride like this. He's like Kuss or Poels.

webboo

RichN95. said:

mididoctors said:

Well have we decided now that McNulty's performance while surprising and awesome is not per sae extraterrestrial?

Surprising in that we haven't seen him do it before. But he's young and not really needed to ride like this. He's like Kuss or Poels.

I’m sure he has done a couple of rides in lower cat races where he put in similar performances to win.

No_Ta_Doctor

Going back to the stage...
I thought it was pretty exciting, though missing fireworks at the end. I spent a lot of time on the edge of my seat, braced for the Pogacar attack that never came. Whittling the GC group down one by one was a slow burner of tension. In football this would have been an enthralling 0-0 draw.

I think the reality is that Pogacar and Vingegaard are just really evenly matched. Vingegaard didn't take the bait like Pogacar did on Granon, which might not be the most exciting way to race, but if you're expecting a suicide attack from someone in yellow by over two minutes then you probably should find a different sport to watch, you're going to be disappointed very often.
I'm also sure Pogacar would have attacked if he thought he had a chance today, but he didn't see the slightest crack. They were both on the limit, neither could take advantage today

Tomorrow might be different, but let's see how long the domestiques last. I'm not sure Pogacar will be able to set things up quite so well again, so he may have to do more himself to get a one on one fight. Gut feeling is Vingegaard will be able to match him and possibly counter him if he goes too deep.

andyp

Pross said:

phreak said:

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

And yet he was within realistic touching distance of Pog at the start of the day.

The point I was making is that most on here would have said Thomas was beyond his best (and some have previously said he was the worst ever Tour winner) yet he's within 5 minutes which I suspect is a fairly normal gap for third place by this stage of a Tour.

Yet here he is, about to complete the set of Tour podium places.

larkim

Well, I guess that was nice of him as he'd have been tired after the stage.

blazing_saddles

McNulty: "We had a plan to accelerate on the second climb: Pogacar asked me to go for a quarter of an hour flat out, and it turned into almost an hour ."

Since Hirschi will likely only last until the first Kms of the Aubisque, (although he should be the freshest of the bunch) both he and Bjerg around going to have to go for longer and probably deeper than yesterday.

r0bh

blazing_saddles said:

McNulty: "We had a plan to accelerate on the second climb: Pogacar asked me to go for a quarter of an hour flat out, and it turned into almost an hour ."

Hmmm that doesn't make too much sense. If you ride the maximum power you think you can do for 15 minutes there is no way you can hold that power for an hour

Pross

andyp said:

Pross said:

phreak said:

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

And yet he was within realistic touching distance of Pog at the start of the day.

The point I was making is that most on here would have said Thomas was beyond his best (and some have previously said he was the worst ever Tour winner) yet he's within 5 minutes which I suspect is a fairly normal gap for third place by this stage of a Tour.

Yet here he is, about to complete the set of Tour podium places.

Yep, not my argument but it was certainly argued by some on here in the past. On his 2018 form I think he'd be right up there with the other two.

phreak

Pross said:

phreak said:

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

And yet he was within realistic touching distance of Pog at the start of the day.

The point I was making is that most on here would have said Thomas was beyond his best (and some have previously said he was the worst ever Tour winner) yet he's within 5 minutes which I suspect is a fairly normal gap for third place by this stage of a Tour.

Oh for sure, I think he's done a fantastic ride. I think he said the other day that he's been riding stronger in this race than when he won it and has had to push himself harder. I don't think there's anything else he could have done to change the situation so fair play to him, he's leaving it all out on the road every day.

blazing_saddles

Pross said:

andyp said:

Pross said:

phreak said:

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

And yet he was within realistic touching distance of Pog at the start of the day.

The point I was making is that most on here would have said Thomas was beyond his best (and some have previously said he was the worst ever Tour winner) yet he's within 5 minutes which I suspect is a fairly normal gap for third place by this stage of a Tour.

Yet here he is, about to complete the set of Tour podium places.

Yep, not my argument but it was certainly argued by some on here in the past. On his 2018 form I think he'd be right up there with the other two.

I hope you both are right.
Being the eternal pessimist, I worry that he might run out of gas and crack big time.
In the back of my mind I have that 2015 edition, when he was 4th going into the final mountain stages. I worry about his recuperation

Still, he's much older and wiser, I am sure he'll have factored today in and measured his effort.

No_Ta_Doctor

Pross said:

andyp said:

Pross said:

phreak said:

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

And yet he was within realistic touching distance of Pog at the start of the day.

The point I was making is that most on here would have said Thomas was beyond his best (and some have previously said he was the worst ever Tour winner) yet he's within 5 minutes which I suspect is a fairly normal gap for third place by this stage of a Tour.

Yet here he is, about to complete the set of Tour podium places.

Yep, not my argument but it was certainly argued by some on here in the past. On his 2018 form I think he'd be right up there with the other two.

I don't think he's far off 2018 form tbh, yesterday was just a bad day. He was only a handful of Watts from being able to stay with them. But I don't see any way for him to win, even before getting dropped - not without Yates or Martinez being in top form and doing to Vingegaard what Jumbo Visma did to Pogacar, or the two smacking lumps out of each other and doing it to themselves. Maybe he's got a super TT in him, but that would still only be worth maybe a minute. I honestly don't think Vingegaard and Pogacar have been racing him (maybe yesterday a bit), they've just kept an eye on potential Ineos moves to see if they might pose a threat.

No_Ta_Doctor

blazing_saddles said:

Pross said:

andyp said:

Pross said:

phreak said:

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

And yet he was within realistic touching distance of Pog at the start of the day.

The point I was making is that most on here would have said Thomas was beyond his best (and some have previously said he was the worst ever Tour winner) yet he's within 5 minutes which I suspect is a fairly normal gap for third place by this stage of a Tour.

Yet here he is, about to complete the set of Tour podium places.

Yep, not my argument but it was certainly argued by some on here in the past. On his 2018 form I think he'd be right up there with the other two.

I hope you both are right.
Being the eternal pessimist, I worry that he might run out of gas and crack big time.
In the back of my mind I have that 2015 edition, when he was 4th going into the final mountain stages. I worry about his recuperation

Still, he's much older and wiser, I am sure he'll have factored today in and measured his effort.

Wasn't that when Bardet (?) took him out on a descent and he lost his Jawbones and a couple of minutes? Don't think that was a crack

* I might be very wrong here*

larkim

Think Millar et al got it right on the podcast - 2022 Thomas is at his absolute peak in every way except for a tiny, tiny percentage of physical capability. He's being beaten by two guys who are better than he ever was physically, and he's beating people who are probably better physically than he is but not mentally / tactically as astute as someone who has spent 15 years riding the Tour. He's had a great race.

r0bh

Who are the people he's beating that are physically better than him? Seems quite clear to me that Pog/Ving are at one level, Thomas the next rung down, everyone else on rungs below him

larkim

Perhaps too much verbiage on my part there - I was thinking of riders like Pidcock etc but doing Thomas a disservice as he's clearly the better GT rider physically; type first, think later ;-)
Their peaks are higher than his peaks now, I'd bet, but his experience with measuring efforts and his ability to recover are paying dividends.

bobmcstuff

r0bh said:

blazing_saddles said:

McNulty: "We had a plan to accelerate on the second climb: Pogacar asked me to go for a quarter of an hour flat out, and it turned into almost an hour ."

Hmmm that doesn't make too much sense. If you ride the maximum power you think you can do for 15 minutes there is no way you can hold that power for an hour

There was a descent in between. But yes, he did pull that one out somewhat.

TheBigBean

Pross said:

andyp said:

Pross said:

phreak said:

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

And yet he was within realistic touching distance of Pog at the start of the day.

The point I was making is that most on here would have said Thomas was beyond his best (and some have previously said he was the worst ever Tour winner) yet he's within 5 minutes which I suspect is a fairly normal gap for third place by this stage of a Tour.

Yet here he is, about to complete the set of Tour podium places.

Yep, not my argument but it was certainly argued by some on here in the past. On his 2018 form I think he'd be right up there with the other two.

I made the argument that he was the worst since Sastre. Some people countered to say it was too earlier to tell with Bernal which I think is fair, but I'm confident he is not as good as Froome, Contador and Pogacar. If he gets another podium then I guess there could be a discussion comparing him with Wiggins, Evans and Nibali, but I still don't think it is enough.

rick_chasey

Thomas is a great rider and doesn’t get enough credit - and I’m hardly a fan boi

phreak

Thomas is perhaps affected by the fact that he crashed out of 3 of the 5 GTs he contested during his peak years so it makes his 1st and 2nd stand out as he hasn't managed another top 10. He's ridden a super race this year though and no mistake.

wallace_and_gromit

Weird argument re Thomas. There are no "bad" Tour winners but equally, not all winners are equal and the multiple winners clearly have a better claim to be the best than the one-time winners. He's likely to finish with a full set of GC podium positions, which represents a stellar career by any standards even just as a "Tour racer" (which his track and one-day exploits clearly demonstrate is not the only string to his bow).

larkim

Tour positions 1, 2, 3 (including 2nd when he wasn't riding as a domestique). 2 Olympic golds. 3 world champs golds. 9 stage race overall victories include PN, Dauphine etc etc. Up there with the very best, a long career, and regarded as one of the "good guys" (by most). No slouch!

Pross

No_Ta_Doctor said:

Pross said:

andyp said:

Pross said:

phreak said:

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

And yet he was within realistic touching distance of Pog at the start of the day.

The point I was making is that most on here would have said Thomas was beyond his best (and some have previously said he was the worst ever Tour winner) yet he's within 5 minutes which I suspect is a fairly normal gap for third place by this stage of a Tour.

Yet here he is, about to complete the set of Tour podium places.

Yep, not my argument but it was certainly argued by some on here in the past. On his 2018 form I think he'd be right up there with the other two.

I don't think he's far off 2018 form tbh, yesterday was just a bad day. He was only a handful of Watts from being able to stay with them. But I don't see any way for him to win, even before getting dropped - not without Yates or Martinez being in top form and doing to Vingegaard what Jumbo Visma did to Pogacar, or the two smacking lumps out of each other and doing it to themselves. Maybe he's got a super TT in him, but that would still only be worth maybe a minute. I honestly don't think Vingegaard and Pogacar have been racing him (maybe yesterday a bit), they've just kept an eye on potential Ineos moves to see if they might pose a threat.

I don't think he's that close to the level that allowed him to take the Alpe d'Huez stage but it's always hard to judge against different opposition. In 2018 he seemed to have the ability to go with, or even make, the explosive efforts whereas this year he has had to leave them go and ease his way back. At the start of yesterday's stage virtually all the time advantage Pog had on him was from those small gains and bonuses from a final kick Thomas couldn't match.