TDF 2022:- Stage 17: Saint Gaudens - Peyragudes 129.7km ***Spoilers***

Pross

50x11 said:

This is like an even more boring version of Sky. Except it's classic riders doing the damage up 1st cat climbs. Imagine.

Fair play to Pog, Vin will be the least interesting or worthy winner of the Tour imo. Boring tedious stuff from Jumbo. Who are a super power version of Sky, who pale in even their best.

Did I imagine the stage last week when Pogacar and Vingegaard knocked lumps out of each other until Vingegaard eventually cracked him and took a chunk of time? Did I imagine today where Vingegaard got isolated early and yet managed to limit Pog to one half hearted attack?

The way people invent scenarios on here at times to suit their own narrative is really boring.

bobmcstuff

50x11 said:

This is like an even more boring version of Sky. Except it's classic riders doing the damage up 1st cat climbs. Imagine.

Fair play to Pog, Vin will be the least interesting or worthy winner of the Tour imo. Boring tedious stuff from Jumbo. Who are a super power version of Sky, who pale in even their best.

Are you joking? I can't really tell.

The stage where Vingegaard took the yellow was one of the best mountain stages of recent times.

People expecting the rider with a nearly 2.5 minute lead to attack all the time is just mad. Vingegaard is riding exactly how he should be riding as a rider who wants to win.

Also, hardly like Team Sky to send a classics rider in the break and have them park up and wait for the leader.

bobmcstuff

Before Vingegaard took the jersey people were saying Pog had it in the bag - surely that would have been more boring!

gweeds

50x11 said:

This is like an even more boring version of Sky. Except it's classic riders doing the damage up 1st cat climbs. Imagine.

Fair play to Pog, Vin will be the least interesting or worthy winner of the Tour imo. Boring tedious stuff from Jumbo. Who are a super power version of Sky, who pale in even their best.

https://youtu.be/LQCU36pkH7c

bobmcstuff

RichN95. said:

josame said:

rick_chasey said:

blazing_saddles said:

Jonas needs to liven this stage up

Why’? Has a decent lead and Pog has a teammate. No sense

Because Pog would and this is why we have ourselves another Froome rather than a Bertie

A reminder here that the only stage Contador won in the Yellow Jersey was a time trial. I can't remember him ever attacking while wearing it. Meanwhile Froome won two mountain top finishes solo. He also came second to Sagan attacking into a crosswind.

Just shows that attacking all the time might look good on TV but isn't necessarily effective- Vingegaard (and Froome) attacked at the right moment where they knew they could do damage, all or nothing - as opposed to all the time for the sake of it.

Towards the end Contador's attacks were hardly exciting anyway since you knew full well they would be followed by him getting dropped within a few minutes.

RichN95.

phreak said:

<

There were no attacks perhaps because of the pace Ullrich was going though. Earlier in the stage Festina had been using Brochard, Dufaux et al to set a really strong pace so they weren't hanging around by any means. I get that the climbs are seldom time trials and therefore comparing like with like, the fact that UAE pulled two domestiques out of nowhere to shred the entire peloton over 3 climbs is notable as you can't really say they were saving it for the Pyrenees or something when Pogacar has quite probably lost the race on climbs earlier on when they were nowhere to be seen. It was an incredible pair of performances today.

Go and watch the actual attack. It makes it obvious Ullrich wasn't going that fast. As does his leader losing 30 seconds in just 2 minutes once the attack goes.

As for domestiques coming out of nowhere - Majka is hardly an unknown and has been where I would expect him to be mostly. And McNulty, he's a good climber and he will have saved himself for specific stages. Sky used to this all the time.

I get it. You want to be edgy and not fooled like us sheeple. But at least back it up with something better than climbing times. When has a rider ever mentioned what their time was on a climb in a race?

rick_chasey

Today was a snooze but I hardly think it’s the team tactics.

In fact because both GC contender teams are pretty depleted, we’re getting much more man v man action then we have for a long time.

Generally the peloton seems very small already on the penultimate climb.

I also think Hautacam is looming in their minds….we’ve seen some monster tour winning moves here. 3 from memory, that Armstong win, that Nibali win and of course that Riis win (I’d like to think the symmetry of a Danish start and ving in yellow is deliberate but covid obviously)

mididoctors

I thought it was a decent stage ....

mididoctors

There was a lot of teams trying to execute plans ...they were all steamrolled by bjerg and McNulty.

Pross

phreak said:

Pross said:

phreak said:

Must have been a tailwind or something

https://twitter.com/faustocoppi60/status/1549759912900796419

You're getting tedious now.

So we just blindly accept everything in pro cycling these days and become like tennis fans? Nothing strange to see here when a domestique rides from the dead and goes quicker than Pantani. You should get yourself a Billy can in Lourdes tomorrow.

Alternatively, mountain domestique finally does what he's paid to do and rides hard for a climb and a half against people who have been fighting hard on virtually every stage for 2.5 weeks.

Went quicker than someone did 25 years ago on a stage that was 50km longer and included far tougher climbs you say? Sounds really dodgy to me.

RichN95.

rick_chasey said:

Today was a snooze but I hardly think it’s the team tactics.

In fact because both GC contender teams are pretty depleted, we’re getting much more man v man action then we have for a long time.

Generally the peloton seems very small already on the penultimate climb.

I also think Hautacam is looming in their minds….we’ve seen some monster tour winning moves here. 3 from memory, that Armstong win, that Nibali win and of course that Riis win (I’d like to think the symmetry of a Danish start and ving in yellow is deliberate but covid obviously)

I think UAE have calculated that if is going to happen it will only happen on Hautacam. Today they put pressure on JV, but there wasn't a proper assault as McNulty was still there.

phreak

RichN95. said:

phreak said:

<

There were no attacks perhaps because of the pace Ullrich was going though. Earlier in the stage Festina had been using Brochard, Dufaux et al to set a really strong pace so they weren't hanging around by any means. I get that the climbs are seldom time trials and therefore comparing like with like, the fact that UAE pulled two domestiques out of nowhere to shred the entire peloton over 3 climbs is notable as you can't really say they were saving it for the Pyrenees or something when Pogacar has quite probably lost the race on climbs earlier on when they were nowhere to be seen. It was an incredible pair of performances today.

Go and watch the actual attack. It makes it obvious Ullrich wasn't going that fast. As does his leader losing 30 seconds in just 2 minutes once the attack goes.

As for domestiques coming out of nowhere - Majka is hardly an unknown and has been where I would expect him to be mostly. And McNulty, he's a good climber and he will have saved himself for specific stages. Sky used to this all the time.

I get it. You want to be edgy and not fooled like us sheeple. But at least back it up with something better than climbing times. When has a rider ever mentioned what their time was on a climb in a race?

It's not about being edgy. A central tenet of the so-called clean era of riding that was it was inevitably a bit duller and people would do more tt like climbs because that's the most efficient way of climbing.

That's changed completely over the past few years and riders now take lumps out of each other almost from the gun. I got hooked on the sport because of Pantani's long-range attacks so know full well how exciting they are, but I also know how he did them. We've seen stuff over the past couple of years that do simply blow the mind. Even the commentary teams have remarked that the racing now is much more like that seen in the 80s and 90s, without acknowledging that it was all that orange juice that allowed that kind of racing.

While UAE may have intended to save McNulty for the third week, given the paucity of their resources and the way they were exposed when Pogacar lost the jersey it seems somewhat unlikely that he and Berg had those kind of performances in their legs and were just saving them up for today.

DeVlaeminck

Yeah I thought it was decent - not a classic but better than I expected

Pross

phreak said:

RichN95. said:

phreak said:

<

There were no attacks perhaps because of the pace Ullrich was going though. Earlier in the stage Festina had been using Brochard, Dufaux et al to set a really strong pace so they weren't hanging around by any means. I get that the climbs are seldom time trials and therefore comparing like with like, the fact that UAE pulled two domestiques out of nowhere to shred the entire peloton over 3 climbs is notable as you can't really say they were saving it for the Pyrenees or something when Pogacar has quite probably lost the race on climbs earlier on when they were nowhere to be seen. It was an incredible pair of performances today.

Go and watch the actual attack. It makes it obvious Ullrich wasn't going that fast. As does his leader losing 30 seconds in just 2 minutes once the attack goes.

As for domestiques coming out of nowhere - Majka is hardly an unknown and has been where I would expect him to be mostly. And McNulty, he's a good climber and he will have saved himself for specific stages. Sky used to this all the time.

I get it. You want to be edgy and not fooled like us sheeple. But at least back it up with something better than climbing times. When has a rider ever mentioned what their time was on a climb in a race?

It's not about being edgy. A central tenet of the so-called clean era of riding that was it was inevitably a bit duller and people would do more tt like climbs because that's the most efficient way of climbing.

That's changed completely over the past few years and riders now take lumps out of each other almost from the gun. I got hooked on the sport because of Pantani's long-range attacks so know full well how exciting they are, but I also know how he did them. We've seen stuff over the past couple of years that do simply blow the mind. Even the commentary teams have remarked that the racing now is much more like that seen in the 80s and 90s, without acknowledging that it was all that orange juice that allowed that kind of racing.

While UAE may have intended to save McNulty for the third week, given the paucity of their resources and the way they were exposed when Pogacar lost the jersey it seems somewhat unlikely that he and Berg had those kind of performances in their legs and were just saving them up for today.

Part of saving riders for the third week involves them coming in slightly under cooked. Poels was the perfect example of this, people would spend 2 weeks saying he shouldn't be there and wasn't contributing then he'd be there ready to go when the week 2 domestiques were tiring. By their very nature domestiques are unlikely to be able to be up there on every mountain stage or they would be GC riders.

rick_chasey

Do worry for Jakobsen. Tomorrow will be harder

RichN95.

phreak said:

That's changed completely over the past few years and riders now take lumps out of each other almost from the gun.

But they are not actually doing this. Vingegaard has made one big attack which was a team effort assisted by a three time Vuelta winner (and pre-race second favourite). Pogacar has done a few pointless attacks early in stages and has sprinted for 20th place, but these have not been of any consequence. It all calms down and people think what was that for. And there's still usually a fairly large lead group at the base of the final climb

Just because you have people on TV hyping this up as some sort of new era, and passing of bad tactics as 'pure racing' it doesn't mean it's true.

andyp

rick_chasey said:

Today was a snooze but I hardly think it’s the team tactics.

In fact because both GC contender teams are pretty depleted, we’re getting much more man v man action then we have for a long time.

Generally the peloton seems very small already on the penultimate climb.

I also think Hautacam is looming in their minds….we’ve seen some monster tour winning moves here. 3 from memory, that Armstong win, that Nibali win and of course that Riis win (I’d like to think the symmetry of a Danish start and ving in yellow is deliberate but covid obviously)

Both Riis and Nibali were miles ahead by the time the race reached Hautacam. Those performances were just establishing what we already knew. The Armstrong ride was Tour winning though. I watched that in a bar in Italy, and the way he took Pantani apart didn't go down well.

rick_chasey

I was only 12 when I saw Lance fly up there. Was like he was in a different bike race. Incredible.

Different speed, whirling legs like crazy.

Still like the story that Ferrari was cheesed off with him as it was too much.

mididoctors

Pross said:

phreak said:

RichN95. said:

phreak said:

<

There were no attacks perhaps because of the pace Ullrich was going though. Earlier in the stage Festina had been using Brochard, Dufaux et al to set a really strong pace so they weren't hanging around by any means. I get that the climbs are seldom time trials and therefore comparing like with like, the fact that UAE pulled two domestiques out of nowhere to shred the entire peloton over 3 climbs is notable as you can't really say they were saving it for the Pyrenees or something when Pogacar has quite probably lost the race on climbs earlier on when they were nowhere to be seen. It was an incredible pair of performances today.

Go and watch the actual attack. It makes it obvious Ullrich wasn't going that fast. As does his leader losing 30 seconds in just 2 minutes once the attack goes.

As for domestiques coming out of nowhere - Majka is hardly an unknown and has been where I would expect him to be mostly. And McNulty, he's a good climber and he will have saved himself for specific stages. Sky used to this all the time.

I get it. You want to be edgy and not fooled like us sheeple. But at least back it up with something better than climbing times. When has a rider ever mentioned what their time was on a climb in a race?

It's not about being edgy. A central tenet of the so-called clean era of riding that was it was inevitably a bit duller and people would do more tt like climbs because that's the most efficient way of climbing.

That's changed completely over the past few years and riders now take lumps out of each other almost from the gun. I got hooked on the sport because of Pantani's long-range attacks so know full well how exciting they are, but I also know how he did them. We've seen stuff over the past couple of years that do simply blow the mind. Even the commentary teams have remarked that the racing now is much more like that seen in the 80s and 90s, without acknowledging that it was all that orange juice that allowed that kind of racing.

While UAE may have intended to save McNulty for the third week, given the paucity of their resources and the way they were exposed when Pogacar lost the jersey it seems somewhat unlikely that he and Berg had those kind of performances in their legs and were just saving them up for today.

Part of saving riders for the third week involves them coming in slightly under cooked. Poels was the perfect example of this, people would spend 2 weeks saying he shouldn't be there and wasn't contributing then he'd be there ready to go when the week 2 domestiques were tiring. By their very nature domestiques are unlikely to be able to be up there on every mountain stage or they would be GC riders.

I am not freaking out about the speed of modern racing . Training .nutrition and weight have had MASSSIVE effects on performance . McNulty and bjerg suddenly finding those legs was surprising.

It wasn't as hot today... That was a big change

RichN95.

mididoctors said:

I am not freaking out about the speed of modern racing . Training .nutrition and weight have had MASSSIVE effects on performance . McNulty and bjerg suddenly finding those legs was surprising.

But when have either of them been called on to ride like that before? Bjerg is a three time u23 World TT champion*, so he can put out some numbers and do a job like Cancellara or Kwiatkowski have done in the past. He finished just ahead of Ewan and Rowe today. And Pogacar hasn't needed his team to put pressure on before, or been in trouble, so no real need for McNulty to shine


*Twice sharing a podium with McNulty

mididoctors

Trust but check your biases

My questions

1 If there is funny buisness going on. what are they doing?

2 During covid did we see a sudden uptick in extraterrestrial awesomeness due to laxer out of competition testing?

3 How much of the current peloton are more talented than previous generations due to wider youth talent scounting...is the average pro now way ahead in base potential of one 30 years ago . A lot of the peloton then were just commited guys who put the miles In?

orraloon

Just catched up. Kudos big time to McNulty. Good watch.

mididoctors

MvdP is basically a genetically breed x men ....so is WvA

Pross

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

mididoctors

RichN95. said:

mididoctors said:

I am not freaking out about the speed of modern racing . Training .nutrition and weight have had MASSSIVE effects on performance . McNulty and bjerg suddenly finding those legs was surprising.

But when have either of them been called on to ride like that before? Bjerg is a three time u23 World TT champion*, so he can put out some numbers and do a job like Cancellara or Kwiatkowski have done in the past. He finished just ahead of Ewan and Rowe today. And Pogacar hasn't needed his team to put pressure on before, or been in trouble, so no real need for McNulty to shine


*Twice sharing a podium with McNulty

I don't know ....it's odd McNulty was no where yesterday when a completely bolloxed mjika was throwing shapes till his chain broke .... I am benefit of the doubt.

No_Ta_Doctor

For the record, Bjerg says his numbers today weren't spectacular at all, everyone he shed was just knackered already from 2.5 weeks of hard racing. He's not had a huge amount to do since the yellow went to Vingegaard.
He struggled on the first climb, but got back to the front and then emptied his tank.
He usually works earlier in the stage but he's ridden as part of the mtn train before on occasion.

mididoctors

No_Ta_Doctor said:

For the record, Bjerg says his numbers today weren't spectacular at all, everyone he shed was just knackered already from 2.5 weeks of hard racing. He's not had a huge amount to do since the yellow went to Vingegaard.
He struggled on the first climb, but got back to the front and then emptied his tank.
He usually works earlier in the stage but he's ridden as part of the mtn train before on occasion.

Yeah fatigue was a big part of it ..I can believe that

RichN95.

mididoctors said:

I don't know ....it's odd McNulty was no where yesterday when a completely bolloxed mjika was throwing shapes till his chain broke .... I am benefit of the doubt.

Fact check: Yesterday's result



He had been in the break, like Van Aert

phreak

Pross said:

On point 3 globalisation has surely helped. 30 years ago how many members of the pro peloton came from outside of Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain and Italy? Since then we haven't seen a French, Belgian or Dutch winner at the Tour.

The other thing to remember is that Thomas is still in third place and was in touching distance of Pog until today when most people had ruled him out as a podium rider so there isn't as big a gulf as people like to suggest.

Thomas said today that he's not in the same league as Pogacar and Vindegaard, and is just riding for the podium. In reality that has always been the case, and indeed, he said that he was nearly cracked by Berg early on but managed to just about hang on.

inseine

People go crazy for each new bit of tech, then don't think the pros are benefitting from 25 years or bike development.