Cars, cars, cars...

briantrumpet

MattFalle said:

monkimark said:

That is a strange and long winded way of agreeing with me.

MattFalle said:

monkimark said:

If you need to stare at your speedometer to maintain constant speed, you probably shouldn't be driving. It also surely applies equally to any speed limit, not just 20mph?

nah fam.

you get to the speed. you maintain it using your road senses. you may fluctuate 1/2 mph either way but deffo no more.

its simplez, innit. if you can't do it without STARING at your speedo theres something wrong and should you really driving ?

you ride a motorbike, you know this stuff.

isn't everything MF does strange and long winded?

No, sometimes he's strange and short-winded.

MattFalle

briantrumpet said:

MattFalle said:

monkimark said:

That is a strange and long winded way of agreeing with me.

MattFalle said:

monkimark said:

If you need to stare at your speedometer to maintain constant speed, you probably shouldn't be driving. It also surely applies equally to any speed limit, not just 20mph?

nah fam.

you get to the speed. you maintain it using your road senses. you may fluctuate 1/2 mph either way but deffo no more.

its simplez, innit. if you can't do it without STARING at your speedo theres something wrong and should you really driving ?

you ride a motorbike, you know this stuff.

isn't everything MF does strange and long winded?

No, sometimes he's strange and short-winded.

that can't be argued with either, tbh.

pinno

briantrumpet said:

MattFalle said:

monkimark said:

That is a strange and long winded way of agreeing with me.

MattFalle said:

monkimark said:

If you need to stare at your speedometer to maintain constant speed, you probably shouldn't be driving. It also surely applies equally to any speed limit, not just 20mph?

nah fam.

you get to the speed. you maintain it using your road senses. you may fluctuate 1/2 mph either way but deffo no more.

its simplez, innit. if you can't do it without STARING at your speedo theres something wrong and should you really driving ?

you ride a motorbike, you know this stuff.

isn't everything MF does strange and long winded?

No, sometimes he's strange and short-winded.

Maybe it's just wind.

focuszing723

https://news.lenovo.com/chinook-wind-powered-cars-future-of-travel/

Could have a short or long range depending on the wind.

pinno

You're just about to get into your Landcopter to commute to work... and there's no wind.
You'll have to eat beans. Lots of beans. I mean, copious quantities of beans as back up.

On a serious note; it's one of those 'oh look, we can produce electricity and can propel a small, light object' sort of thing with little or no practical use apart from pushing the limits of micro electrical generation.

Stevo_666

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

monkimark said:

Whoever claimed either of those things?

All other things being equal, slower is safer, it's very basic physics.

Speaking as someone who rides a 600cc motorbike to work every day, I'm not going to pretend that I love the 20 limits I have to ride through but taking a step back, I can see that any objection I have is pretty petty and selfish.

Which other factors relevant to road safety does Rick post mention?

In the end, bad laws get ignored. Good example is the 20mph limit: over 80% ignore it.
https://highwaysindustry.com/most-drivers-ignore-20mph-speed-limits-official-figures-show/
Sounds superficially attractive but in most places its too low for the road involved so gets ignored. Many are being put in where there are no specific hazards and simply lose their impact.

In case you're interested - even if people go over 20mph, the average speed is reduced, and so are the number and severity of accidents.

https://www.rospa.com/media/documents/road-safety/20mph-zones-and-speed-limits-factsheet.pdf

A major review of road casualties in London between 1986 and 2006 was published in the BMJ in 200914. It demonstrated that 20mph zones reduced the number of casualties by over 40% (41.9%). The 20mph zones were slightly more effective in preventing fatal or serious injuries to children, which were reduced by half (50.2%). There was a smaller reduction in casualties among cyclists than any of the other major groups of road users studied, with a reduction of 16.9%.

See above - in many cases 20 is simply too slow, that's why most people ignore them. There is more to it than just speed as I keep saying. Better if people concentrate on driving sensibly, observing and anticipating rather than staring at their speedometer to make sure they're not going to get caught out on roads where the 'natural' speed is higher.

I'm guessing you haven't bothered to read the studies that show that 20mph limits slow people down, even if they are still breaking the limit. Or if you have, you're ignoring them.

You clearly didn't read my post above as there is more to it than just slowing down.

Stevo_666

Pross said:

Stevo_666 said:

briantrumpet said:

Stevo_666 said:

monkimark said:

Whoever claimed either of those things?

All other things being equal, slower is safer, it's very basic physics.

Speaking as someone who rides a 600cc motorbike to work every day, I'm not going to pretend that I love the 20 limits I have to ride through but taking a step back, I can see that any objection I have is pretty petty and selfish.

Which other factors relevant to road safety does Rick post mention?

In the end, bad laws get ignored. Good example is the 20mph limit: over 80% ignore it.
https://highwaysindustry.com/most-drivers-ignore-20mph-speed-limits-official-figures-show/
Sounds superficially attractive but in most places its too low for the road involved so gets ignored. Many are being put in where there are no specific hazards and simply lose their impact.

In case you're interested - even if people go over 20mph, the average speed is reduced, and so are the number and severity of accidents.

https://www.rospa.com/media/documents/road-safety/20mph-zones-and-speed-limits-factsheet.pdf

A major review of road casualties in London between 1986 and 2006 was published in the BMJ in 200914. It demonstrated that 20mph zones reduced the number of casualties by over 40% (41.9%). The 20mph zones were slightly more effective in preventing fatal or serious injuries to children, which were reduced by half (50.2%). There was a smaller reduction in casualties among cyclists than any of the other major groups of road users studied, with a reduction of 16.9%.

See above - in many cases 20 is simply too slow, that's why most people ignore them. There is more to it than just speed as I keep saying. Better if people concentrate on driving sensibly, observing and anticipating rather than staring at their speedometer to make sure they're not going to get caught out on roads where the 'natural' speed is higher.

Too slow for what?

I’ve tried to explain before that 20 makes more sense than 30 as an arbitrary limit (and any limit is arbitrary) as it is the point where the likelihood of a pedestrian dying after being hit by a vehicle starts to increase more sharply. It has more science behind it than 30 does and also means that those who like to push the limit slightly beyond its maximum will still be going slower.

Unfortunately you are right about the ‘natural’ speed of a road. Chucking a few 20 signs up on a wide road with verges and pavements isn’t going slow anyone down.

Too slow for the 80% + who ignore it.

Agree on your last paragraph. There are place where 20 is appropriate (including the high street of the village where I live - narrow with blind bends and not enough room for 2 cars to pass in places). But there are plenty where it simply isn't and so gets ignored - such as the long wide straight stretch of road just after you leave the village, which is also signed 20 but most people do 35 which is the natural speed (and also shows that these things don't necessarily slow people down where they are not appropriate).

Maybe there should be some focus on telling pedestrians to take some bloody care when crossing the road. Then there's nothing to hit, regardless of speed.

rick_chasey

Just showing yourself up as a bad driver tbh

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

20mph does show up the MGIF crowd, as it’s quite easy to do 20mph on ya bike and they’re still trying to get past you.

Stevo hasn’t quite worked out that doing 25 in a 20 is still safer than 35 in a 30

How do you know what speed other people will drive at? Assumptions, assumptions...

Only absolute morons do 30 in a 20

You're assuming (again) - this time that the limit has been set appropriately for the road in question. Quite often, it is not.

Looking at some places where there are 20 limits, I can only assume that they have been set by absolute morons. And you do not even think to question whether the limits are appropriate?

Stevo_666

monkimark said:

If you need to stare at your speedometer to maintain constant speed, you probably shouldn't be driving. It also surely applies equally to any speed limit, not just 20mph?

This is the problem, quite a few people do - which is dangerous.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

20mph does show up the MGIF crowd, as it’s quite easy to do 20mph on ya bike and they’re still trying to get past you.

Stevo hasn’t quite worked out that doing 25 in a 20 is still safer than 35 in a 30

How do you know what speed other people will drive at? Assumptions, assumptions...

Only absolute morons do 30 in a 20

You're assuming (again) - this time that the limit has been set appropriately for the road in question. Quite often, it is not.

Looking at some places where there are 20 limits, I can only assume that they have been set by absolute morons. And you do not even think to question whether the limits are appropriate?

There isn’t a good excuse for speeding, especially on British roads.

Stop making excuses for your own poor driving.

If you can’t hold 20 easily you should hand in your licence

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Just showing yourself up as a bad driver tbh

Remember folks, doesn't matter what the subject is, Rick knows better

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

20mph does show up the MGIF crowd, as it’s quite easy to do 20mph on ya bike and they’re still trying to get past you.

Stevo hasn’t quite worked out that doing 25 in a 20 is still safer than 35 in a 30

How do you know what speed other people will drive at? Assumptions, assumptions...

Only absolute morons do 30 in a 20

You're assuming (again) - this time that the limit has been set appropriately for the road in question. Quite often, it is not.

Looking at some places where there are 20 limits, I can only assume that they have been set by absolute morons. And you do not even think to question whether the limits are appropriate?

There isn’t a good excuse for speeding, especially on British roads.

Stop making excuses for your own poor driving.

If you can’t hold 20 easily you should hand in your licence

You know nothing about how I drive so stop making assumptions yet again. But I can tell you that I've never had points on my license and am maxed out on my no claims bonus. Go figure.

But let's say the council imposed a blanket 5mph speed limit in and around Cambridge, would you just accept it and say 'well it makes things safer'?

And if you blindly accept anything like this without questioning you are just another one of the Sheeple.

webboo

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Just showing yourself up as a bad driver tbh

Remember folks, doesn't matter what the subject is, Rick knows better

Hmmmm Shirley this is the kettle calling the pan grimeyarse

Stevo_666

Backlash against the low speed idiocy has already started:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/02/welsh-council-scraps-20mph-speed-limit-community-backlash/

Stevo_666

webboo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Just showing yourself up as a bad driver tbh

Remember folks, doesn't matter what the subject is, Rick knows better

Hmmmm Shirley this is the kettle calling the pan grimeyarse

At least I don't make sweeping assumptions and call people morons because they disagree with me Good sign of a p1$$ poor debater if you ask me.

Anyway, thanks for your valuable contribution

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

20mph does show up the MGIF crowd, as it’s quite easy to do 20mph on ya bike and they’re still trying to get past you.

Stevo hasn’t quite worked out that doing 25 in a 20 is still safer than 35 in a 30

How do you know what speed other people will drive at? Assumptions, assumptions...

Only absolute morons do 30 in a 20

You're assuming (again) - this time that the limit has been set appropriately for the road in question. Quite often, it is not.

Looking at some places where there are 20 limits, I can only assume that they have been set by absolute morons. And you do not even think to question whether the limits are appropriate?

There isn’t a good excuse for speeding, especially on British roads.

Stop making excuses for your own poor driving.

If you can’t hold 20 easily you should hand in your licence

You know nothing about how I drive so stop making assumptions yet again. But I can tell you that I've never had points on my license and am maxed out on my no claims bonus. Go figure.

But let's say the council imposed a blanket 5mph speed limit in and around Cambridge, would you just accept it and say 'well it makes things safer'?

And if you blindly accept anything like this without questioning you are just another one of the Sheeple.

Given the average speed in built up areas is well below 20 (around 17.5-18mph. Much lower in London https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/driving-a-car-in-town-no-faster-than-cycling-x93536cvw ) anyway it makes no difference to your journey time and you’re less likely to crash and kill someone.

Obviously reducing it below the average speed actually impacts drivers and so at that point you can weigh up the benefits of travelling faster vs likelihood of crashing and killing or injuring people.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

20mph does show up the MGIF crowd, as it’s quite easy to do 20mph on ya bike and they’re still trying to get past you.

Stevo hasn’t quite worked out that doing 25 in a 20 is still safer than 35 in a 30

How do you know what speed other people will drive at? Assumptions, assumptions...

Only absolute morons do 30 in a 20

You're assuming (again) - this time that the limit has been set appropriately for the road in question. Quite often, it is not.

Looking at some places where there are 20 limits, I can only assume that they have been set by absolute morons. And you do not even think to question whether the limits are appropriate?

There isn’t a good excuse for speeding, especially on British roads.

Stop making excuses for your own poor driving.

If you can’t hold 20 easily you should hand in your licence

You know nothing about how I drive so stop making assumptions yet again. But I can tell you that I've never had points on my license and am maxed out on my no claims bonus. Go figure.

But let's say the council imposed a blanket 5mph speed limit in and around Cambridge, would you just accept it and say 'well it makes things safer'?

And if you blindly accept anything like this without questioning you are just another one of the Sheeple.

Given the average speed in built up areas is well below 20 (around 17.5-18mph. Much lower in London https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/driving-a-car-in-town-no-faster-than-cycling-x93536cvw ) anyway it makes no difference to your journey time and you’re less likely to crash and kill someone.

Obviously reducing it below the average speed actually impacts drivers and so at that point you can weigh up the benefits of travelling faster vs likelihood of crashing and killing or injuring people.

I'm well aware of average driving speed in London, but there's not a lot of choice there most of the time.

Paying attention and driving appropriately for the road and traffic conditions are more important than some set limit imposed which may or may not be appropriate. The problem with low limits everywhere is people just ignore them (see stats posted above about the 20mph limit) and if that means that people ignore the low limits where they are genuinely needed, then it will create problems.

What are your thoughts on the point about the 5mph limit?

rick_chasey

Well that would reduce average speed times.

Lowering 30mph to 20mph doesn’t.

monkimark

So your solution is to let people who are dangerously bad drivers go faster?
Is there something about driving at 30mph (or 40, or 50) that means they no longer have to stare at the speedo to maintain constant speed?
If not then all you are doing is doubling the energy involved when they crash into someone.

Stevo_666 said:

monkimark said:

If you need to stare at your speedometer to maintain constant speed, you probably shouldn't be driving. It also surely applies equally to any speed limit, not just 20mph?

This is the problem, quite a few people do - which is dangerous.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Well that would reduce average speed times.

Lowering 30mph to 20mph doesn’t.

Really, how's that? Where is the cut off point at which the speed of someone's journey is affected?

Stevo_666

monkimark said:

So your solution is to let people who are dangerously bad drivers go faster?
Is there something about driving at 30mph (or 40, or 50) that means they no longer have to stare at the speedo to maintain constant speed?
If not then all you are doing is doubling the energy involved when they crash into someone.

Stevo_666 said:

monkimark said:

If you need to stare at your speedometer to maintain constant speed, you probably shouldn't be driving. It also surely applies equally to any speed limit, not just 20mph?

This is the problem, quite a few people do - which is dangerous.

Did I say that? Best re-read what I posted above.

webboo

Stevo_666 said:

webboo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Just showing yourself up as a bad driver tbh

Remember folks, doesn't matter what the subject is, Rick knows better

Hmmmm Shirley this is the kettle calling the pan grimeyarse

At least I don't make sweeping assumptions and call people morons because they disagree with me Good sign of a p1$$ poor debater if you ask me.

Anyway, thanks for your valuable contribution

You should taken the industrial strength pain killers, you might not be so 😡

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Well that would reduce average speed times.

Lowering 30mph to 20mph doesn’t.

Really, how's that? Where is the cut off point at which the speed of someone's journey is affected?

On average, when it’s lower than the average speed.

I’ve never understood the point of hurrying to a traffic light.

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

20mph does show up the MGIF crowd, as it’s quite easy to do 20mph on ya bike and they’re still trying to get past you.

Stevo hasn’t quite worked out that doing 25 in a 20 is still safer than 35 in a 30

How do you know what speed other people will drive at? Assumptions, assumptions...

Only absolute morons do 30 in a 20

You're assuming (again) - this time that the limit has been set appropriately for the road in question. Quite often, it is not.

Looking at some places where there are 20 limits, I can only assume that they have been set by absolute morons. And you do not even think to question whether the limits are appropriate?

There isn’t a good excuse for speeding, especially on British roads.

Stop making excuses for your own poor driving.

If you can’t hold 20 easily you should hand in your licence

You know nothing about how I drive so stop making assumptions yet again. But I can tell you that I've never had points on my license and am maxed out on my no claims bonus. Go figure.

But let's say the council imposed a blanket 5mph speed limit in and around Cambridge, would you just accept it and say 'well it makes things safer'?

And if you blindly accept anything like this without questioning you are just another one of the Sheeple.

Given the average speed in built up areas is well below 20 (around 17.5-18mph. Much lower in London https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/driving-a-car-in-town-no-faster-than-cycling-x93536cvw ) anyway it makes no difference to your journey time and you’re less likely to crash and kill someone.

Obviously reducing it below the average speed actually impacts drivers and so at that point you can weigh up the benefits of travelling faster vs likelihood of crashing and killing or injuring people.

I’m not sure you’ve thought this line of argument through fully. If they are slowing I’m areas where they could go faster then surely the overall average will drop? It’s not like driving slower in non-congested areas will speed things up in congested areas.

Best way to speed traffic up in London is to get fewer people driving which is ironic when the car lobby like to fight anything designed to encourage other modes of transport.

rick_chasey

Yeah could be. Reality is, with both congestion and traffic lights the time savings are really marginal.

briantrumpet

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

20mph does show up the MGIF crowd, as it’s quite easy to do 20mph on ya bike and they’re still trying to get past you.

Stevo hasn’t quite worked out that doing 25 in a 20 is still safer than 35 in a 30

How do you know what speed other people will drive at? Assumptions, assumptions...

Only absolute morons do 30 in a 20

You're assuming (again) - this time that the limit has been set appropriately for the road in question. Quite often, it is not.

Looking at some places where there are 20 limits, I can only assume that they have been set by absolute morons. And you do not even think to question whether the limits are appropriate?

There isn’t a good excuse for speeding, especially on British roads.

Stop making excuses for your own poor driving.

If you can’t hold 20 easily you should hand in your licence

You know nothing about how I drive so stop making assumptions yet again. But I can tell you that I've never had points on my license and am maxed out on my no claims bonus. Go figure.

But let's say the council imposed a blanket 5mph speed limit in and around Cambridge, would you just accept it and say 'well it makes things safer'?

And if you blindly accept anything like this without questioning you are just another one of the Sheeple.

Given the average speed in built up areas is well below 20 (around 17.5-18mph. Much lower in London https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/driving-a-car-in-town-no-faster-than-cycling-x93536cvw ) anyway it makes no difference to your journey time and you’re less likely to crash and kill someone.

Obviously reducing it below the average speed actually impacts drivers and so at that point you can weigh up the benefits of travelling faster vs likelihood of crashing and killing or injuring people.

I’m not sure you’ve thought this line of argument through fully. If they are slowing I’m areas where they could go faster then surely the overall average will drop? It’s not like driving slower in non-congested areas will speed things up in congested areas.

Best way to speed traffic up in London is to get fewer people driving which is ironic when the car lobby like to fight anything designed to encourage other modes of transport.

I'd almost like to see an 'everyone drive to work day', just to see the carnage, although I suspect very few people would actually get to work, such would be the snarl-up.

MattFalle

a lot of itcome down to what type of car it is as well remember.

TDV once ploughed some little shitheadchav in our old Honda Civic 1.6 Vti and he was fine - just sorta bounced up the hood and and windshield. 50mph? Littleshitwas fine.

He later told to 5-0 he liked to jump out in front of cars to see the drivers get scared.

Hate to see what she would have done to him in some Chelsea tractor

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Well that would reduce average speed times.

Lowering 30mph to 20mph doesn’t.

Really, how's that? Where is the cut off point at which the speed of someone's journey is affected?

On average, when it’s lower than the average speed.

I’ve never understood the point of hurrying to a traffic light.

That's not an answer. In effect you're saying that speed limits are justified by congestion and traffic lights.

At least you concede that that there is a speed limit at which it gets a bit silly. Most people are capable of knowing when that is - witness the 80%+ who ignore 20 limits.

Stevo_666

webboo said:

Stevo_666 said:

webboo said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Just showing yourself up as a bad driver tbh

Remember folks, doesn't matter what the subject is, Rick knows better

Hmmmm Shirley this is the kettle calling the pan grimeyarse

At least I don't make sweeping assumptions and call people morons because they disagree with me Good sign of a p1$$ poor debater if you ask me.

Anyway, thanks for your valuable contribution

You should taken the industrial strength pain killers, you might not be so 😡

I dunno, you go to the trouble of thanking someone....it was a valuable contribution by your standards