English history.

dennisn
dennisn Posts: 10,601
Just finished reading Wolf Hall and Bring up the Bodies by Hillary Mantel. Found it a somewhat difficult read being from the USA and not really all that familiar with English history. Still interesting stuff. Was wondering what the English history books have to say about Henry VIII, Cromwell, and Anne?
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Comments

  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,166
    This is what I know from going to school in England. Henry had 6 wives, divorced 2 but had to create his own church for the second. Lopped the heads off another 2 of them. Another one snuffed it of natural causes and the last one outlived him. I only remember that becasue of a rhyme. Cromwell was called Oliver, I've heard of Anne.
    Kids know much more from watching Horrible Histories when they were little.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,318
    edited August 2021
    Henry - historical Homer Simpson with an unhealthy wedding habit. Also Greensleeves

    Cromwell - controversial, very mean to the Irish. Parliament. That looong film with young Dumbledore

    Anne - weirdo Catholic, burned a lot of protestants
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 25,951
    I didn't realise until a few weeks ago that Henry VIII was married to Catherine of aragon for over 20 years before he had his midlife crisis. She stayed living at court after he divorced her.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,219
    Cnut.
    Cnut.
    Cnut.
    No. Wait. That was earlier.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,248
    edited August 2021
    ddraver said:

    Henry - historical Homer Simpson with an unhealthy wedding habit. Also Greensleeves

    Cromwell - controversial, very mean to the Irish. Parliament. That looong film with young Dumbledore

    Anne - weirdo Catholic, burned a lot of protestants

    😆

    This is what I know from going to school in England. Henry had 6 wives, divorced 2 but had to create his own church for the second. Lopped the heads off another 2 of them. Another one snuffed it of natural causes and the last one outlived him. I only remember that becasue of a rhyme. Cromwell was called Oliver, I've heard of Anne.
    Kids know much more from watching Horrible Histories when they were little.

    Wrong Cromwell. Distantly related, though.

    Mantel's a good read, but it's a novel not a biography.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,248
    edited August 2021
    pblakeney said:

    Cnut.
    Cnut.
    Cnut.
    No. Wait. That was earlier.

    William William Henry Stephen Henry Richard John (Oi!)
    Henry Ed Ed Ed Rich 2
    Then three more Henrys join our song
    Edward Edward Rich the third
    Henry, Henry, Ed again
    Mary one, good Queen Bess
    Jimmy, Charles and Charles and then
    Jim, Will, Mary, Anna Gloria
    George, George, George, George
    Will, Victoria
    Edward, George, Edward, George six
    And Queen Liz two completes the mix

    More seriously there are some good podcasts on the Tudors, including Not Just the Tudors.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,569
    I do think English history is really badly taught at schools.

    I managed to go all the way through the English system and get a degree in history and not once did I ever do the English civil war or any Cromwell.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,317
    edited August 2021

    I do think English history is really badly taught at schools.

    I managed to go all the way through the English system and get a degree in history and not once did I ever do the English civil war or any Cromwell.


    Me neither, but my O-level in the 70s was the Russian Revolution, WW2 and a bit of the Cold War.
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,541

    I do think English history is really badly taught at schools.

    I managed to go all the way through the English system and get a degree in history and not once did I ever do the English civil war or any Cromwell.

    You're spot on with this. I never have a clue about the English history questions on University Challenge. Know a lot about Hitler, Stalin and Mao though!
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 39,822

    I didn't realise until a few weeks ago that Henry VIII was married to Catherine of aragon for over 20 years before he had his midlife crisis. She stayed living at court after he divorced her.

    Have you been listening to Six The Musical? I know that from my daughter singing / playing the songs over and over. I also discovered that Jane Seymour's family home was a castle a few miles from where I live and that I pass regularly.

    Wasn't it Thomas Cromwell rather than Oliver that would have been in the Wolf Hall books?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,219

    I do think English history is really badly taught at schools.

    I managed to go all the way through the English system and get a degree in history and not once did I ever do the English civil war or any Cromwell.

    It used to be in primary school to a certain level.
    History was all about knowing kings, queens, key battles and dates. No context.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • womack
    womack Posts: 566
    I learnt a lot of English history at school thanks to the curriculum set by English ran officialdom at the time.

    Never learnt any Welsh history as despite being at school in Wales this was not allowed and actively discouraged at the time.

    NB. We were taught about English kings building their castles in Wales!
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    There’s a series of books by Peter Ackroyd which starts with foundation. Then volume 2 The Tudors, vol 3 Civil war. These give a broad over view of English history and very readable.
    Juliet Barker is good for Henry V and anything by Ian Mortimer is usually a good read and he’s not backwards at coming forwards at having ago at other historians about not challenging history’s so called truths.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,318
    edited August 2021
    Primary school went Vikings, 1066, Tudors, Civil War.

    Secondary school was 1914-1918 &...oooh...1938.5 to 1945 repeated 3 times up to GCSE
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,248

    I do think English history is really badly taught at schools.

    I managed to go all the way through the English system and get a degree in history and not once did I ever do the English civil war or any Cromwell.

    Which given how foundational it is to the way the UK is, is madness. Hey ho.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,248
    edited August 2021
    Pross said:

    I didn't realise until a few weeks ago that Henry VIII was married to Catherine of aragon for over 20 years before he had his midlife crisis. She stayed living at court after he divorced her.

    Have you been listening to Six The Musical? I know that from my daughter singing / playing the songs over and over. I also discovered that Jane Seymour's family home was a castle a few miles from where I live and that I pass regularly.

    Wasn't it Thomas Cromwell rather than Oliver that would have been in the Wolf Hall books?
    Yes. Thomas was Oliver's great great grand uncle.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    We did the industrial revolution at school, so pretty much everything I know about these people is from my own reading, TV documentaries, films and podcasts e. You're Dead to Me.

    Oh, and Horrible Histories as V68 alluded to
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  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    edited August 2021
    I have always been amazed when watching things like mastermind and university challenge where people obtained their knowledge of English history. Similar to others here, I can recall lots about WW1 and 2 and recall some stuff about the Great fire from primary school but have never studied kings and queens etc.
    I think it is one of the major differences between public and comprehensive schools. But that may be ill informed conjecture on my part.

    However, this is where you have to delight in the absolute brilliance of Horrible Histories. My daughter was just the right age to grow up with the programmes which she always really enjoyed. I learnt a broader range of history from these shows than my school experience and she retains a keen interest in history to this day.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    I have always loved history despite doing the agricultural revolution at school. The corn laws and the invention of the seed drill are not the sort of history to inspire a 24 year old. When going on holiday I usually buy a couple of history books to take away.
    I have about 20 at the moment I have read some of the ones I have on the civil war about 10 times.
    It’s pity Oliver warts and all is not about now. The Johnson’s head would be decorating one of London’s bridges. >:)
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 39,822
    womack said:

    I learnt a lot of English history at school thanks to the curriculum set by English ran officialdom at the time.

    Never learnt any Welsh history as despite being at school in Wales this was not allowed and actively discouraged at the time.

    NB. We were taught about English kings building their castles in Wales!

    I did the Industrial Revolution at GCSE which we covered in a fair bit of depth and which was predominantly related to (South) Wales. Would have been interesting other than it was taught by the most boring teacher in the school.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 39,822

    I do think English history is really badly taught at schools.

    I managed to go all the way through the English system and get a degree in history and not once did I ever do the English civil war or any Cromwell.

    I guess by its very nature it is just a massive subject so very hard to cover in depth unless focussing on certain periods. As mentioned above I covered the Industrial Revolution in a fair bit of depth at GCSE along with the history of crime and punishment in Britain (the Rise of Communist China was the final element).
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,248
    morstar said:

    I have always been amazed when watching things like mastermind and university challenge where people obtained their knowledge of English history. Similar to others here, I can recall lots about WW1 and 2 and recall some stuff about the Great fire from primary school but have never studied kings and queens etc.
    I think it is one of the major differences between public and comprehensive schools. But that may be ill informed conjecture on my part.

    However, this is where you have to delight in the absolute brilliance of Horrible Histories. My daughter was just the right age to grow up with the programmes which she always really enjoyed. I learnt a broader range of history from these shows than my school experience and she retains a keen interest in history to this day.

    It's still going strong. Daughters watch it so avidly that I think they know most of the words to the songs.
    Rowan Atkinson as Henry VIII singing 'A Little More Reformation' is a good one.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,318
    I'm so old, I remember when Horrible Histories were books...

    *sigh*
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,248
    ddraver said:

    I'm so old, I remember when Horrible Histories were books...

    *sigh*

    They're still books as well.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross said:

    I do think English history is really badly taught at schools.

    I managed to go all the way through the English system and get a degree in history and not once did I ever do the English civil war or any Cromwell.

    I guess by its very nature it is just a massive subject so very hard to cover in depth unless focussing on certain periods. As mentioned above I covered the Industrial Revolution in a fair bit of depth at GCSE along with the history of crime and punishment in Britain (the Rise of Communist China was the final element).
    But what happened in the 1,000 years between the Romans leaving and the Normans turning up in Hastings. Then it goes quiet for 400 years until the Henrys makes an appearance. Then 200 years disappear before Wellington/Nelson and Napoleon liven things up. Then nothing for 100 years until Archduke Ferdinand gets unlucky.

    Ask 10 degree educated Brits when the American civil war was and 9 won’t get within 50 years.

    And then for a laugh ask them when the Boer War was
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 39,822

    Pross said:

    I do think English history is really badly taught at schools.

    I managed to go all the way through the English system and get a degree in history and not once did I ever do the English civil war or any Cromwell.

    I guess by its very nature it is just a massive subject so very hard to cover in depth unless focussing on certain periods. As mentioned above I covered the Industrial Revolution in a fair bit of depth at GCSE along with the history of crime and punishment in Britain (the Rise of Communist China was the final element).
    But what happened in the 1,000 years between the Romans leaving and the Normans turning up in Hastings. Then it goes quiet for 400 years until the Henrys makes an appearance. Then 200 years disappear before Wellington/Nelson and Napoleon liven things up. Then nothing for 100 years until Archduke Ferdinand gets unlucky.

    Ask 10 degree educated Brits when the American civil war was and 9 won’t get within 50 years.

    And then for a laugh ask them when the Boer War was
    Really? I knew the American Civil War was mid 19th century (not the exact dates) and that the Boer war was turn of the 20th century.

    I'm no historian but have read Bernard Cornwell's Starbuck Chronicles so possibly recall the approximate dates from those. The Boer War I guess I remember from my days in the scouts due to Baden-Powell and all that.

  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 25,951
    Pross said:

    I didn't realise until a few weeks ago that Henry VIII was married to Catherine of aragon for over 20 years before he had his midlife crisis. She stayed living at court after he divorced her.

    Have you been listening to Six The Musical? I know that from my daughter singing / playing the songs over and over. I also discovered that Jane Seymour's family home was a castle a few miles from where I live and that I pass regularly.

    Wasn't it Thomas Cromwell rather than Oliver that would have been in the Wolf Hall books?
    No, took my nephew to Hampton Court Palace last weekend and actually bought a guide book.
  • Pross said:

    Pross said:

    I do think English history is really badly taught at schools.

    I managed to go all the way through the English system and get a degree in history and not once did I ever do the English civil war or any Cromwell.

    I guess by its very nature it is just a massive subject so very hard to cover in depth unless focussing on certain periods. As mentioned above I covered the Industrial Revolution in a fair bit of depth at GCSE along with the history of crime and punishment in Britain (the Rise of Communist China was the final element).
    But what happened in the 1,000 years between the Romans leaving and the Normans turning up in Hastings. Then it goes quiet for 400 years until the Henrys makes an appearance. Then 200 years disappear before Wellington/Nelson and Napoleon liven things up. Then nothing for 100 years until Archduke Ferdinand gets unlucky.

    Ask 10 degree educated Brits when the American civil war was and 9 won’t get within 50 years.

    And then for a laugh ask them when the Boer War was
    Really? I knew the American Civil War was mid 19th century (not the exact dates) and that the Boer war was turn of the 20th century.

    I'm no historian but have read Bernard Cornwell's Starbuck Chronicles so possibly recall the approximate dates from those. The Boer War I guess I remember from my days in the scouts due to Baden-Powell and all that.

    Maybe I mix with thickos but I think you will be surprised. Try asking your wife and kids.

    BTW mid nineteenth century counts as being correct. Though if it is TBB I would want the names of two generals on each side.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,318
    I couldnt have given you dates for them.

    16 something and 18 something would be all I could do.

    I could never do dates, even geological ones I'm not so good at...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,569
    Now THAT is a good day out.

    Real A list sight that, Hampton Court Palace.