Should Ineos swallow their pride and disband?

andyp

The 1-2 in 2019 was pretty astonishing given the lack of support they had for most of the mountain stages.

gsk82

I wonder how big a role ketones play in this.

Pross

Ineos (Sky) winning the Tour regularly = but they don't win anything else

Ineos not winning the Tour but taking a third place to go with 2 wins and a very close second place in the previous 3 GTs = failure, they haven't won the Tour for two years.

Surely Movistar and Astana should be having second thoughts before Ineos? They seem to aim for mediocrity and just miss it every time

Pross

tailwindhome said:

A clear out of old hands and an honest evaluation of younger talent required

Who's the future and who's the past.

I think that's the process they are currently going through. They only have 15 on next year's roster at the moment and a fair percentage are in their early-mid twenties. There's a call to be made at some point regarding Sivakov and whether he will fulfill his promise but he's there for at least 2 more seasons.

m.r.m.

Why on earth would Movistar second guess anything? They regularly win the team classification.

Pross

The prize they all want.

I don't even know who won the team prize at the Tour this year, was it them again?

RichN95.

Pross said:

The prize they all want.

I don't even know who won the team prize at the Tour this year, was it them again?

Bahrain were Victorious

Pross

RichN95. said:

Pross said:

The prize they all want.

I don't even know who won the team prize at the Tour this year, was it them again?

Bahrain were Victorious

Movistar should call it a day on the sponsorship then if the team can't win the one prize they target (and which very few others seem interested in).

RichN95.

A lot of this talk comes about because 'pundits', both pro and amateur, convinced themselves that Sky only won because they had a strong team. In reality it turned out they had the best rider but there was plenty of resistance to that idea because of his aesthetic.

In GT racing having the best rider really is the killer tactic.

m.r.m.

Well that ship has mostly sailed for the next 10 years. 😉

RichN95.

m.r.m. said:

Well that ship has mostly sailed for the next 10 years. 😉

Who knows? Vingegaard seems to be able to match him on most things. Bernal fully fit is a wild card. Both Evenepoel and Pidcock have shown they can climb and TT. At different stages of their career those two. And who knows what is around the corner?

m.r.m.

Yeah, I wasn't being serious. In a draft I'd pick Pogacar first, but the others you mentioned and others more will show up and make him work for it.

RichN95.

m.r.m. said:

Yeah, I wasn't being serious. In a draft I'd pick Pogacar first, but the others you mentioned and others more will show up and make him work for it.

Personally I think he'll win six plus. But I thought that about Ullrich when he emerged.

m.r.m.

Well at present only Remco and maybe Vingegaard have all the tools to offer up a true fight. Pogacar is much better at TT's than Bernal. Pogacar is still better than Remco at the "Roglic sprinting for bonus seconds" tactic. Pidcock is pretty much entirely a wild card for a three week GT at elite level.
I think only Remco could manage to be a true rival. Pogacar might win the next 3-4 before a new rival even steps up.

pblakeney

m.r.m. said:

Well at present only Remco and maybe Vingegaard have all the tools to offer up a true fight. Pogacar is much better at TT's than Bernal. Pogacar is still better than Remco at the "Roglic sprinting for bonus seconds" tactic. Pidcock is pretty much entirely a wild card for a three week GT at elite level.
I think only Remco could manage to be a true rival. Pogacar might win the next 3-4 before a new rival even steps up.

Who had heard of Pogacar in 2019?
I'm not saying you are wrong, just that these things are by no means certain.

andyp

pblakeney said:

m.r.m. said:

Well at present only Remco and maybe Vingegaard have all the tools to offer up a true fight. Pogacar is much better at TT's than Bernal. Pogacar is still better than Remco at the "Roglic sprinting for bonus seconds" tactic. Pidcock is pretty much entirely a wild card for a three week GT at elite level.
I think only Remco could manage to be a true rival. Pogacar might win the next 3-4 before a new rival even steps up.

Who had heard of Pogacar in 2019?
I'm not saying you are wrong, just that these things are by no means certain.

He won the Tour de l'Avenir in 2018, which is a decent indicator of future talent, so a lot of people were aware of him.

pblakeney

andyp said:

pblakeney said:

m.r.m. said:

Well at present only Remco and maybe Vingegaard have all the tools to offer up a true fight. Pogacar is much better at TT's than Bernal. Pogacar is still better than Remco at the "Roglic sprinting for bonus seconds" tactic. Pidcock is pretty much entirely a wild card for a three week GT at elite level.
I think only Remco could manage to be a true rival. Pogacar might win the next 3-4 before a new rival even steps up.

Who had heard of Pogacar in 2019?
I'm not saying you are wrong, just that these things are by no means certain.

He won the Tour de l'Avenir in 2018, which is a decent indicator of future talent, so a lot of people were aware of him.

Yeah, but who thought he'd win the 2020 Tour?

Pross

m.r.m. said:

Well at present only Remco and maybe Vingegaard have all the tools to offer up a true fight. Pogacar is much better at TT's than Bernal. Pogacar is still better than Remco at the "Roglic sprinting for bonus seconds" tactic. Pidcock is pretty much entirely a wild card for a three week GT at elite level.
I think only Remco could manage to be a true rival. Pogacar might win the next 3-4 before a new rival even steps up.

Other than the recovery / stamina issues if a 3 week GT I'm not sure what essential components Pidcock is lacking. He can even beat The Greatest Rider of The 21st Century in a sprint. I don't think he'll win if he rides next year but by 2023 I reckon he'll be a serious contender.

rick_chasey

RichN95. said:

m.r.m. said:

Yeah, I wasn't being serious. In a draft I'd pick Pogacar first, but the others you mentioned and others more will show up and make him work for it.

Personally I think he'll win six plus. But I thought that about Ullrich when he emerged.

He seems to be more balanced than Ullrich.

No_Ta_Doctor

rick_chasey said:

RichN95. said:

m.r.m. said:

Yeah, I wasn't being serious. In a draft I'd pick Pogacar first, but the others you mentioned and others more will show up and make him work for it.

Personally I think he'll win six plus. But I thought that about Ullrich when he emerged.

He seems to be more balanced than Ullrich.

And considerably slimmer.

rick_chasey

No_Ta_Doctor said:

rick_chasey said:

RichN95. said:

m.r.m. said:

Yeah, I wasn't being serious. In a draft I'd pick Pogacar first, but the others you mentioned and others more will show up and make him work for it.

Personally I think he'll win six plus. But I thought that about Ullrich when he emerged.

He seems to be more balanced than Ullrich.

And considerably slimmer.

I do think riders who are younger are just more lightly built generally - or maybe all that growth hormone doesn't help.

Here's Ullrich in 1997 - Tour winning form
:

Here he is in 2003 - the closest he got back to the Tour winning form in his later years. His chest just looks bigger - like his ribs expanded.



(edit. You can check it out yourself on the other photos - in case you think it's a trick of the eye or the camera).

I found the same as I got older - my chest literally got bigger between say 23 and 30.

bobmcstuff

gsk82 said:

neonriver said:

slowmart said:

It’s a money train suckling on the censored of the richest individual in the UK

ROI? does Ratcliffe care ?

Their record speaks for itself, so they’re not enjoying the dominance they had on the Tour, and that’s a bad thing for the sport?

Equally the publicity and profile for the team is still the same but for different reasons

Pretty sure Ineos will be happy with the tax write off investing in all their different teams let’s them have

Do you even know what that means? Spending £40m and saving £12m in tax is still spending £28m.

And for Ratcliffe, £28m is pocket change anyway.

womack

Can you actually buy a Grenadier now or are they still in development?

mrb123

bobmcstuff said:

gsk82 said:

neonriver said:

slowmart said:

It’s a money train suckling on the censored of the richest individual in the UK

ROI? does Ratcliffe care ?

Their record speaks for itself, so they’re not enjoying the dominance they had on the Tour, and that’s a bad thing for the sport?

Equally the publicity and profile for the team is still the same but for different reasons

Pretty sure Ineos will be happy with the tax write off investing in all their different teams let’s them have

Do you even know what that means? Spending £40m and saving £12m in tax is still spending £28m.

And for Ratcliffe, £28m is pocket change anyway.

Maybe he'll lose interest and decide he wants to go to space instead.

RichN95.

womack said:

Can you actually buy a Grenadier now or are they still in development?

It's not on the Thatcham database yet, so probably still in development

mididoctors

phreak said:

Castroviejo has been superb but most of the time Carapaz was left to attack on his own with no support.

super professional attitude in the race too . Castroviejo was superb ..

m.r.m.

Pross said:

m.r.m. said:

Well at present only Remco and maybe Vingegaard have all the tools to offer up a true fight. Pogacar is much better at TT's than Bernal. Pogacar is still better than Remco at the "Roglic sprinting for bonus seconds" tactic. Pidcock is pretty much entirely a wild card for a three week GT at elite level.
I think only Remco could manage to be a true rival. Pogacar might win the next 3-4 before a new rival even steps up.

Other than the recovery / stamina issues if a 3 week GT I'm not sure what essential components Pidcock is lacking. He can even beat The Greatest Rider of The 21st Century in a sprint. I don't think he'll win if he rides next year but by 2023 I reckon he'll be a serious contender.

Do you know if his climbing times up the HC mountains compare? I don't. That's why I mean wild card. He could have everything. I just don't know. He won the U23 Giro, but I'm not sure how strong his competition was. So, I'm not arguing that he can't, I'm just saying that there is too little info on him at elite level to say for sure.
Based on youth results Mohoric (who is great) should be much better than Pogacar. Yet, at elite level things sometimes shake out differently.

m.r.m.

rick_chasey said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

rick_chasey said:

RichN95. said:

m.r.m. said:

Yeah, I wasn't being serious. In a draft I'd pick Pogacar first, but the others you mentioned and others more will show up and make him work for it.

Personally I think he'll win six plus. But I thought that about Ullrich when he emerged.

He seems to be more balanced than Ullrich.

And considerably slimmer.

I do think riders who are younger are just more lightly built generally - or maybe all that growth hormone doesn't help.

Here's Ullrich in 1997 - Tour winning form
:

Here he is in 2003 - the closest he got back to the Tour winning form in his later years. His chest just looks bigger - like his ribs expanded.



(edit. You can check it out yourself on the other photos - in case you think it's a trick of the eye or the camera).

I found the same as I got older - my chest literally got bigger between say 23 and 30.

Maybe Ullrich not becoming an all time great had more to do with Armstrong than with him. He was a superior talent, who found no real way of beating Lance. Maybe everything else is tied to that.

davidof

rick_chasey said:

:

Here he is in 2003 - the closest he got back to the Tour winning form in his later years. His chest just looks bigger - like his ribs expanded.


I found the same as I got older - my chest literally got bigger between say 23 and 30.

Too many pies during the off season.

As Lance Armstrong deals with the weight of expectation ahead of the Tour de France, Jan Ullrich is dealing with weight, writes Darren Tulett in Paris.

Lance Armstrong's pre-Tour de France sparring with Jan Ullrich, his main rival in cycling's biggest race, is turning into a non-event.

While Armstrong showed his bid for an unprecedented sixth win in the July showpiece is on schedule by winning the six-day Tour de Georgia on Sunday, Ullrich wasn't even racing. The German, only 61 seconds behind Armstrong last year as he finished second in the Tour de France for a fifth time, withdrew from the Liege-Bastogne-Liege race in Belgium after what his team management called a "crisis meeting".

Ullrich, who has completed only two races this year, quit a one-day race in Belgium last week at the halfway stage. Many question whether the 30-year-old, who often puts on weight during the winter break, can rediscover form and fitness to challenge Armstrong in the July 3-25 Tour.

"You have to wonder what's going on in Ullrich's head if he can't even finish a race two months before the Tour de France," said Cyrille Guimard, a former rider and team manager. "Right now, everything points to another Armstrong win."

In cycling, where extra ounces translate into lost seconds on the road, Ullrich's failure to control his weight has often dented his chances, say critics including five-time Tour de France champion Eddy Merckx.

Ullrich's affection for cakes is no secret. The man from Rostock in the former East Germany began the 2000 season more than 10 kilos overweight. Although he looked in better shape at the start of this season, he has failed to give fans any signs of encouragement in race situations.

Often near the back of the pack, the 2000 Olympic champion finished 71st in March's Tour of Murcia in Spain, with Armstrong 23rd. This month he was 64th in the Tour of Cologne, an event he won last year. Ullrich opted not to compete in last week's Amstel Gold Race, which featured on his pre-season schedule, and quit another event three days later.

Walter Godefroot, manager of the T-Mobile team, met Ullrich's manager, Rudy Pevenage, before pulling him out of Sunday's Liege race.

"As usual, Jan is visibly carrying a few kilos too many," Merckx told German news agency DPA. "You can only conclude he hasn't worked hard enough."

When Ullrich won the 1997 Tour de France at 23, experts including five-time winner Bernard Hinault said he would go on to win many more. Seven years on, he's still looking for his second.

Criticised for his tactics and training by many, including Guimard - who as manager led Hinault, Greg LeMond and Laurent Fignon to Tour wins - Ullrich regained face last year when he pushed Armstrong all the way in the Tour. Of the American's five victories, it was the slimmest winning margin.

Ullrich said that although he had added muscle mass he "could be two or three kilos less, but it's not the first time I've been in this situation".

"I probably underestimated the fact that I'm another year older," Ullrich, who is two years younger than Armstrong, told the Bild am Sonntag newspaper. "Or I overestimated my body. The amount of effort it takes to ride continues to increase. That's what I've learned this spring."

Former riders say he should have learned such lessons by now. Rarely a year passes without Ullrich having problems of some kind.

After missing most of 2002 because of a knee injury, he quit the Deutsche Telekom team to join another German outfit, Team Coast, against the advice of many, including Armstrong. Team Coast went bust in May after failing to pay its riders. Ullrich had already missed the start of the 2003 season while he completed a six-month ban for taking so-called recreational drugs.

He is next scheduled to race on May 28 in Germany. His team is trying to remain upbeat.

Armstrong is seeking to become the oldest winner in 24 years - he'll be almost 33 when the Tour finishes - and the only man to rack up six wins in the race's 101-year history.

After taking third place last month in the Criterium International, a two-day French race, Armstrong won two of seven stages at the Tour de Georgia to score his first success of the year.

While Ullrich struggles for form, Armstrong is concerned his may be too good, too soon.

"We might be a little hot right now," he told reporters after his first win in a US stage race since 1998. "We might have to cool off and take some recovery time."

m.r.m.

We know about the pies. The question there isn't if he ate the pies, but rather why he ate the pies, or why he wasn't willing to make the sacrifices any longer required to win the Tour. Maybe getting into shape and still standing no chance drained him so far that he lost belief in himself to no longer stand up against his vices.
Maybe I'm just being to kind or overthinking it. Not everyone is willing to commit to being excellent forever. Some are just really good due to natural talent and were never really willing to put in the work for an extended amount of time.