Giro 2021:- Stage 21: Senago – Milano 30.3 km ITT **Spoilers**

124

Comments

  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    mididoctors said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Martinez won the Dauphine and dragged bernal over the Alps and finished 5th FFS ... Money is the new doping

    And after winning the Dauphine he came 28th in the Tour. Support roles bring out the best in some riders.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,912
    Martinez crushing the two Bora riders on his wheel at the tour to win that stage in the massif was ace
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Carthy is probably the main GC rider at EF, and you'd definitely have Bernal and Carapaz ahead of him, probably Thomas, TGH and perhaps Porte too, with Martinez, Sivakov, and Adam Yates level or just behind (with all three a better bet in 1 week races).
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,490
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Ask Tao Geoghegan Hart? 😉
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • bm5
    bm5 Posts: 599
    edited May 2021
    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Carthy is probably the main GC rider at EF, and you'd definitely have Bernal and Carapaz ahead of him, probably Thomas, TGH and perhaps Porte too, with Martinez, Sivakov, and Adam Yates level or just behind (with all three a better bet in 1 week races).
    That nicely sums up my problem with current situation. Battle for leadership in their team is the main competition. They are then supported by the other potential leaders and super domestiques.
    So I’ve nothing against Bernal but can’t get enthusiastic about his win.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    bm5 said:

    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Carthy is probably the main GC rider at EF, and you'd definitely have Bernal and Carapaz ahead of him, probably Thomas, TGH and perhaps Porte too, with Martinez, Sivakov, and Adam Yates level or just behind (with all three a better bet in 1 week races).
    That nicely sums up my problem with current situation. Battle for leadership in their team is the main competition. They are then supported by the other potential leaders and super domestiques.
    So I’ve nothing against Bernal but can’t get enthusiastic about his win.
    To think, if Landa hadn't crashed out, he would have been supported by the guy who finished second in this Giro ( 3 top 10s) and another guy who has twice finished in the top 6 of the Giro.
    Meanwhile, prior to this Giro, Martinez's best result in a GT was 28th.

    But facts like these won't stop folks trotting out the overwhelmingly dominant Ineos line, while loving how Jumbo rode last year's TDF.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    blazing_saddles said:

    bm5 said:

    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Carthy is probably the main GC rider at EF, and you'd definitely have Bernal and Carapaz ahead of him, probably Thomas, TGH and perhaps Porte too, with Martinez, Sivakov, and Adam Yates level or just behind (with all three a better bet in 1 week races).
    That nicely sums up my problem with current situation. Battle for leadership in their team is the main competition. They are then supported by the other potential leaders and super domestiques.
    So I’ve nothing against Bernal but can’t get enthusiastic about his win.
    To think, if Landa hadn't crashed out, he would have been supported by the guy who finished second in this Giro ( 3 top 10s) and another guy who has twice finished in the top 6 of the Giro.
    Meanwhile, prior to this Giro, Martinez's best result in a GT was 28th.

    But facts like these won't stop folks trotting out the overwhelmingly dominant Ineos line, while loving how Jumbo rode last year's TDF.
    And yet as we know, Landa himself was largely a super-domestique at Sky. It's also clear that Bahrain went all in for the Giro this year with Landa, Caruso and Bilbao. Unless you count Poels as a serious GC contender, that's most of their GC talent in the Giro roster.

    Ineos had a similar pedigree of rider in their Giro roster while still having 3 GT winners sat at home. That Castroviejo and Moscon finished 23rd and 24th respectively shows the depth they have.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    edited May 2021
    phreak said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    bm5 said:

    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Carthy is probably the main GC rider at EF, and you'd definitely have Bernal and Carapaz ahead of him, probably Thomas, TGH and perhaps Porte too, with Martinez, Sivakov, and Adam Yates level or just behind (with all three a better bet in 1 week races).
    That nicely sums up my problem with current situation. Battle for leadership in their team is the main competition. They are then supported by the other potential leaders and super domestiques.
    So I’ve nothing against Bernal but can’t get enthusiastic about his win.
    To think, if Landa hadn't crashed out, he would have been supported by the guy who finished second in this Giro ( 3 top 10s) and another guy who has twice finished in the top 6 of the Giro.
    Meanwhile, prior to this Giro, Martinez's best result in a GT was 28th.

    But facts like these won't stop folks trotting out the overwhelmingly dominant Ineos line, while loving how Jumbo rode last year's TDF.
    And yet as we know, Landa himself was largely a super-domestique at Sky. It's also clear that Bahrain went all in for the Giro this year with Landa, Caruso and Bilbao. Unless you count Poels as a serious GC contender, that's most of their GC talent in the Giro roster.

    Ineos had a similar pedigree of rider in their Giro roster while still having 3 GT winners sat at home. That Castroviejo and Moscon finished 23rd and 24th respectively shows the depth they have.
    Landa was a super domestique, who while doing his job, finished 1 second off the TDF podium. He also had GT leadership while at Sky, but left to be the uncontested top dog. It's a growing process.

    Besides, lets not get side tracked over roster strength. The accusation here is that Bernal only won because of the strength of his support and therefore certain folks can't give his win full credit.
    Meanwhile, the facts don't support this viewpoint, unless one considers finishing one hour twenty minutes down on GC as strength in depth.
    (this being bettered by Jumbo's third string team, who had 3 in the top 12)
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    blazing_saddles said:

    phreak said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    bm5 said:

    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Carthy is probably the main GC rider at EF, and you'd definitely have Bernal and Carapaz ahead of him, probably Thomas, TGH and perhaps Porte too, with Martinez, Sivakov, and Adam Yates level or just behind (with all three a better bet in 1 week races).
    That nicely sums up my problem with current situation. Battle for leadership in their team is the main competition. They are then supported by the other potential leaders and super domestiques.
    So I’ve nothing against Bernal but can’t get enthusiastic about his win.
    To think, if Landa hadn't crashed out, he would have been supported by the guy who finished second in this Giro ( 3 top 10s) and another guy who has twice finished in the top 6 of the Giro.
    Meanwhile, prior to this Giro, Martinez's best result in a GT was 28th.

    But facts like these won't stop folks trotting out the overwhelmingly dominant Ineos line, while loving how Jumbo rode last year's TDF.
    And yet as we know, Landa himself was largely a super-domestique at Sky. It's also clear that Bahrain went all in for the Giro this year with Landa, Caruso and Bilbao. Unless you count Poels as a serious GC contender, that's most of their GC talent in the Giro roster.

    Ineos had a similar pedigree of rider in their Giro roster while still having 3 GT winners sat at home. That Castroviejo and Moscon finished 23rd and 24th respectively shows the depth they have.
    Landa was a super domestique, who while doing his job, finished 1 second off the TDF podium. He also had GT leadership while at Sky, but left to be the uncontested top dog. It's a growing process.

    Besides, lets not get side tracked over roster strength. The accusation here is that Bernal only won because of the strength of his support and therefore certain folks can't give his win full credit.
    Meanwhile, the facts don't support this viewpoint, unless one considers finishing one hour twenty minutes down on GC as strength in depth.
    (Btw, Jumbo's third string team had 3 in the top 12)
    Bernal was quite comfortably the strongest rider in the race. I only raised the strength in depth at Ineos in response to comments about Carthy's GC prospects, as there are probably half a dozen riders of his level or higher in the Ineos squad. I mean Richie Porte put 2m30 into Landa at the Tour last year and he's probably behind Bernal, Carapaz, Thomas, and possibly even TGH in the Ineos pecking order.

    It's a lot of depth, but I've said before, I'm still not convinced that they have anyone individual on the same level as Pogacar and Roglic.

    As for Jumbo, I'm not sure on their depth anymore either tbh. Kruijswijk had a horrid 2020 and hasn't really returned to his former form this year either. Dumoulin is still largely out of the picture, and Sepp Kuss hasn't cracked the top 10 all year in races where he was the leader of the team (and where Porte, Yates and Thomas dominated)
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    bm5 said:


    So I’ve nothing against Bernal but can’t get enthusiastic about his win.


    Last year he quit mid Tour with a back injury and didn't race again. I'd imagine he's delighted just that it didn't return.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    phreak said:



    It's a lot of depth, but I've said before, I'm still not convinced that they have anyone individual on the same level as Pogacar and Roglic.


    While it's easy toi lump them together due to both being Slovenian I don't think Roglic is in the same league as Pogacar. He's been in contention to win the Giro and Tour on several occasions and failed. Bernal has been in contention twice and won twice.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    It's a lot of depth, but I've said before, I'm still not convinced that they have anyone individual on the same level as Pogacar and Roglic.


    While it's easy toi lump them together due to both being Slovenian I don't think Roglic is in the same league as Pogacar. He's been in contention to win the Giro and Tour on several occasions and failed. Bernal has been in contention twice and won twice.
    This.
    Also if one dismisses Bernal because of his support team , what about Roglic's support team, last year?
    They ended last season's Tour with 4 riders in the top 20, Bahrain had 3, as did Movistar.
    Ineos had just Carapaz, in 13th spot.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    phreak said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    phreak said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    bm5 said:

    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Carthy is probably the main GC rider at EF, and you'd definitely have Bernal and Carapaz ahead of him, probably Thomas, TGH and perhaps Porte too, with Martinez, Sivakov, and Adam Yates level or just behind (with all three a better bet in 1 week races).
    That nicely sums up my problem with current situation. Battle for leadership in their team is the main competition. They are then supported by the other potential leaders and super domestiques.
    So I’ve nothing against Bernal but can’t get enthusiastic about his win.
    To think, if Landa hadn't crashed out, he would have been supported by the guy who finished second in this Giro ( 3 top 10s) and another guy who has twice finished in the top 6 of the Giro.
    Meanwhile, prior to this Giro, Martinez's best result in a GT was 28th.

    But facts like these won't stop folks trotting out the overwhelmingly dominant Ineos line, while loving how Jumbo rode last year's TDF.
    And yet as we know, Landa himself was largely a super-domestique at Sky. It's also clear that Bahrain went all in for the Giro this year with Landa, Caruso and Bilbao. Unless you count Poels as a serious GC contender, that's most of their GC talent in the Giro roster.

    Ineos had a similar pedigree of rider in their Giro roster while still having 3 GT winners sat at home. That Castroviejo and Moscon finished 23rd and 24th respectively shows the depth they have.
    Landa was a super domestique, who while doing his job, finished 1 second off the TDF podium. He also had GT leadership while at Sky, but left to be the uncontested top dog. It's a growing process.

    Besides, lets not get side tracked over roster strength. The accusation here is that Bernal only won because of the strength of his support and therefore certain folks can't give his win full credit.
    Meanwhile, the facts don't support this viewpoint, unless one considers finishing one hour twenty minutes down on GC as strength in depth.
    (Btw, Jumbo's third string team had 3 in the top 12)
    Bernal was quite comfortably the strongest rider in the race. I only raised the strength in depth at Ineos in response to comments about Carthy's GC prospects, as there are probably half a dozen riders of his level or higher in the Ineos squad. I mean Richie Porte put 2m30 into Landa at the Tour last year and he's probably behind Bernal, Carapaz, Thomas, and possibly even TGH in the Ineos pecking order.

    It's a lot of depth, but I've said before, I'm still not convinced that they have anyone individual on the same level as Pogacar and Roglic.

    As for Jumbo, I'm not sure on their depth anymore either tbh. Kruijswijk had a horrid 2020 and hasn't really returned to his former form this year either. Dumoulin is still largely out of the picture, and Sepp Kuss hasn't cracked the top 10 all year in races where he was the leader of the team (and where Porte, Yates and Thomas dominated)
    You've not been paying attention to the Vikings thread, have you :wink:

    Jonas Vingegaard is Jumbo's hot new domestique and future GC rider.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    It's a lot of depth, but I've said before, I'm still not convinced that they have anyone individual on the same level as Pogacar and Roglic.


    While it's easy toi lump them together due to both being Slovenian I don't think Roglic is in the same league as Pogacar. He's been in contention to win the Giro and Tour on several occasions and failed. Bernal has been in contention twice and won twice.
    Seems harsh on Roglic. In his last 5 Grand Tours he's been first twice, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. He's also won 5 one-week races in that time, LBL and has been the #1 ranked rider for 68 weeks. In the same period, Pogacar has won the Tour, come 3rd in the Vuelta, and won LBL and Tirreno.

    I get that he's young and will probably win a lot more than Roglic will do over his entire career, but Roglic has been the best stage racer of the past 3 years. The dominant Bernal of 2019 would definitely be up there but it's still not immediately clear if he's back at that level or not because he hasn't faced either Roglic or Pogacar since the Tour.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    phreak said:



    Seems harsh on Roglic. In his last 5 Grand Tours he's been first twice, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. He's also won 5 one-week races in that time, LBL and has been the #1 ranked rider for 68 weeks. In the same period, Pogacar has won the Tour, come 3rd in the Vuelta, and won LBL and Tirreno.

    I get that he's young and will probably win a lot more than Roglic will do over his entire career, but Roglic has been the best stage racer of the past 3 years. The dominant Bernal of 2019 would definitely be up there but it's still not immediately clear if he's back at that level or not because he hasn't faced either Roglic or Pogacar since the Tour.


    He's certainly the best one week racer where time bonuses are more important and there's no fading in the third week. But as a Grand Tour rider, until you have won the Tour or the Giro, you can't be considered in the top level.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    Seems harsh on Roglic. In his last 5 Grand Tours he's been first twice, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. He's also won 5 one-week races in that time, LBL and has been the #1 ranked rider for 68 weeks. In the same period, Pogacar has won the Tour, come 3rd in the Vuelta, and won LBL and Tirreno.

    I get that he's young and will probably win a lot more than Roglic will do over his entire career, but Roglic has been the best stage racer of the past 3 years. The dominant Bernal of 2019 would definitely be up there but it's still not immediately clear if he's back at that level or not because he hasn't faced either Roglic or Pogacar since the Tour.


    He's certainly the best one week racer where time bonuses are more important and there's no fading in the third week. But as a Grand Tour rider, until you have won the Tour or the Giro, you can't be considered in the top level.
    I'd place a Vuelta win against Valverde, Pogacar, Quintana, and Lopez above the competition Bernal beat in this Giro. I don't like the way Roglic rides and find it very boring, but it seems churlish in the extreme to deny how good he is at winning races, hence why it was such a monumental surprise that Pogacar overhauled him in the final time trial last year. If he was a no hoper no one would have batted an eyelid, but instead people were raving about Pogarcar's ride as though it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
  • zest28
    zest28 Posts: 403
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    It's a lot of depth, but I've said before, I'm still not convinced that they have anyone individual on the same level as Pogacar and Roglic.


    While it's easy toi lump them together due to both being Slovenian I don't think Roglic is in the same league as Pogacar. He's been in contention to win the Giro and Tour on several occasions and failed. Bernal has been in contention twice and won twice.
    First all, Bernal lucked himself into winning the TdF when the stage got cancelled during his breakaway. If Alaphilippe who is not even a GC was giving the entire Ineos squad a big headache that year, that says it all basically.

    Pogacar is clearly in a different league, being able to climb at 7W/kg no problem, but Roglic is good, and definitely stronger than Bernal.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    edited May 2021
    zest28 said:



    First all, Bernal lucked himself into winning the TdF when the stage got cancelled during his breakaway. If Alaphilippe who is not even a GC was giving the entire Ineos squad a big headache that year, that says it all basically.

    Before that cancelled stage Bernal was second on GC and Alaphilippe had already lost over a minute to the other GC riders (and eventually finished 5th). Luck wasn't involved.

    The only person who could have beaten him was Thomas, who would have won his second Tour and another who people seem to rate below Roglic
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    phreak said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    phreak said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    bm5 said:

    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Carthy is probably the main GC rider at EF, and you'd definitely have Bernal and Carapaz ahead of him, probably Thomas, TGH and perhaps Porte too, with Martinez, Sivakov, and Adam Yates level or just behind (with all three a better bet in 1 week races).
    That nicely sums up my problem with current situation. Battle for leadership in their team is the main competition. They are then supported by the other potential leaders and super domestiques.
    So I’ve nothing against Bernal but can’t get enthusiastic about his win.
    To think, if Landa hadn't crashed out, he would have been supported by the guy who finished second in this Giro ( 3 top 10s) and another guy who has twice finished in the top 6 of the Giro.
    Meanwhile, prior to this Giro, Martinez's best result in a GT was 28th.

    But facts like these won't stop folks trotting out the overwhelmingly dominant Ineos line, while loving how Jumbo rode last year's TDF.
    And yet as we know, Landa himself was largely a super-domestique at Sky. It's also clear that Bahrain went all in for the Giro this year with Landa, Caruso and Bilbao. Unless you count Poels as a serious GC contender, that's most of their GC talent in the Giro roster.

    Ineos had a similar pedigree of rider in their Giro roster while still having 3 GT winners sat at home. That Castroviejo and Moscon finished 23rd and 24th respectively shows the depth they have.
    Landa was a super domestique, who while doing his job, finished 1 second off the TDF podium. He also had GT leadership while at Sky, but left to be the uncontested top dog. It's a growing process.

    Besides, lets not get side tracked over roster strength. The accusation here is that Bernal only won because of the strength of his support and therefore certain folks can't give his win full credit.
    Meanwhile, the facts don't support this viewpoint, unless one considers finishing one hour twenty minutes down on GC as strength in depth.
    (Btw, Jumbo's third string team had 3 in the top 12)
    Bernal was quite comfortably the strongest rider in the race. I only raised the strength in depth at Ineos in response to comments about Carthy's GC prospects, as there are probably half a dozen riders of his level or higher in the Ineos squad. I mean Richie Porte put 2m30 into Landa at the Tour last year and he's probably behind Bernal, Carapaz, Thomas, and possibly even TGH in the Ineos pecking order.

    It's a lot of depth, but I've said before, I'm still not convinced that they have anyone individual on the same level as Pogacar and Roglic.

    As for Jumbo, I'm not sure on their depth anymore either tbh. Kruijswijk had a horrid 2020 and hasn't really returned to his former form this year either. Dumoulin is still largely out of the picture, and Sepp Kuss hasn't cracked the top 10 all year in races where he was the leader of the team (and where Porte, Yates and Thomas dominated)
    You've not been paying attention to the Vikings thread, have you :wink:

    Jonas Vingegaard is Jumbo's hot new domestique and future GC rider.
    Excuse me, but you need to have a word with young Jonas.
    Where was he today? He's not supposed to get dropped when the likes of Cobrelli are still there to sprint.
    He's let my velogames team down.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    Sorry.
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  • salsiccia1
    salsiccia1 Posts: 3,725
    RichN95. said:

    zest28 said:



    First all, Bernal lucked himself into winning the TdF when the stage got cancelled during his breakaway. If Alaphilippe who is not even a GC was giving the entire Ineos squad a big headache that year, that says it all basically.

    Before that cancelled stage Bernal was second on GC and Alaphilippe had already lost over a minute to the other GC riders (and eventually finished 5th). Luck wasn't involved.

    The only person who could have beaten him was Thomas, who would have won his second Tour and another who people seem to rate below Roglic
    And there's a good possibility that Bernal would have finished that stage with a bigger lead if it had run its course. Same with the Giau stage in this Giro.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    RichN95. said:

    zest28 said:



    First all, Bernal lucked himself into winning the TdF when the stage got cancelled during his breakaway. If Alaphilippe who is not even a GC was giving the entire Ineos squad a big headache that year, that says it all basically.

    Before that cancelled stage Bernal was second on GC and Alaphilippe had already lost over a minute to the other GC riders (and eventually finished 5th). Luck wasn't involved.

    The only person who could have beaten him was Thomas, who would have won his second Tour and another who people seem to rate below Roglic
    I think it's been established many times that Zest is clueless.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    blazing_saddles said:

    No_Ta_Doctor said:

    phreak said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    phreak said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    bm5 said:

    phreak said:

    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    For sure. He's a good rider and will probably have a fine career. 5-10th will be his stock and trade I suspect.


    There's a question here. Who has the best GC prospects - the leader at EF or the number 2 (or even 3) at Ineos?
    Carthy is probably the main GC rider at EF, and you'd definitely have Bernal and Carapaz ahead of him, probably Thomas, TGH and perhaps Porte too, with Martinez, Sivakov, and Adam Yates level or just behind (with all three a better bet in 1 week races).
    That nicely sums up my problem with current situation. Battle for leadership in their team is the main competition. They are then supported by the other potential leaders and super domestiques.
    So I’ve nothing against Bernal but can’t get enthusiastic about his win.
    To think, if Landa hadn't crashed out, he would have been supported by the guy who finished second in this Giro ( 3 top 10s) and another guy who has twice finished in the top 6 of the Giro.
    Meanwhile, prior to this Giro, Martinez's best result in a GT was 28th.

    But facts like these won't stop folks trotting out the overwhelmingly dominant Ineos line, while loving how Jumbo rode last year's TDF.
    And yet as we know, Landa himself was largely a super-domestique at Sky. It's also clear that Bahrain went all in for the Giro this year with Landa, Caruso and Bilbao. Unless you count Poels as a serious GC contender, that's most of their GC talent in the Giro roster.

    Ineos had a similar pedigree of rider in their Giro roster while still having 3 GT winners sat at home. That Castroviejo and Moscon finished 23rd and 24th respectively shows the depth they have.
    Landa was a super domestique, who while doing his job, finished 1 second off the TDF podium. He also had GT leadership while at Sky, but left to be the uncontested top dog. It's a growing process.

    Besides, lets not get side tracked over roster strength. The accusation here is that Bernal only won because of the strength of his support and therefore certain folks can't give his win full credit.
    Meanwhile, the facts don't support this viewpoint, unless one considers finishing one hour twenty minutes down on GC as strength in depth.
    (Btw, Jumbo's third string team had 3 in the top 12)
    Bernal was quite comfortably the strongest rider in the race. I only raised the strength in depth at Ineos in response to comments about Carthy's GC prospects, as there are probably half a dozen riders of his level or higher in the Ineos squad. I mean Richie Porte put 2m30 into Landa at the Tour last year and he's probably behind Bernal, Carapaz, Thomas, and possibly even TGH in the Ineos pecking order.

    It's a lot of depth, but I've said before, I'm still not convinced that they have anyone individual on the same level as Pogacar and Roglic.

    As for Jumbo, I'm not sure on their depth anymore either tbh. Kruijswijk had a horrid 2020 and hasn't really returned to his former form this year either. Dumoulin is still largely out of the picture, and Sepp Kuss hasn't cracked the top 10 all year in races where he was the leader of the team (and where Porte, Yates and Thomas dominated)
    You've not been paying attention to the Vikings thread, have you :wink:

    Jonas Vingegaard is Jumbo's hot new domestique and future GC rider.
    Excuse me, but you need to have a word with young Jonas.
    Where was he today? He's not supposed to get dropped when the likes of Cobrelli are still there to sprint.
    He's let my velogames team down.
    Apparently he's had an injury and he's just coming back from it, using the Dauphiné for training
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Anyone else feel Bernal was not at 100% when he won this?
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Also, can we take a moment to appreciate winning a 30km TT with a mechanical.

    Ridiculous
    _
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    RichN95. said:

    phreak said:



    It's a lot of depth, but I've said before, I'm still not convinced that they have anyone individual on the same level as Pogacar and Roglic.


    While it's easy toi lump them together due to both being Slovenian I don't think Roglic is in the same league as Pogacar. He's been in contention to win the Giro and Tour on several occasions and failed. Bernal has been in contention twice and won twice.
    Seems harsh to say he's not in the same league given how close he came to beating Pogacar at the Tour. Is Pogacar better - probably - but Roglic is still going to be one of his major rivals in any grand tour.

    Bernal is a bit of an unknown quantity - he came through very young and has won both times he was in contention but it can be fine margins at the top level - a bit of luck, a domestique on a good day, a shortened stage, getting the tactics right and so on. If they went head to head as team leaders you could make a reasonable case for either.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    mididoctors said:

    Hugh has finished off on a GT podium thou . Martin hasn't. Should Hugh just forget it ?

    I agree, it was only last year he was on a GC podium - if we are suggesting riders of that stature bin off their GC ambitions from the start it's going to detract from the races.

    Well done to Dan Martin but when a GC rider loses time and takes a stage I always see it as a bit of a consolation prize .
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    DeVlaeminck said:



    Seems harsh to say he's not in the same league given how close he came to beating Pogacar at the Tour. Is Pogacar better - probably - but Roglic is still going to be one of his major rivals in any grand tour.

    He will be. But last year Pogacar was a 21 year old debutant with a weak team that lost a minute and a half in crosswinds. I don't think he'll get a better chance without a crash.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    RichN95. said:

    DeVlaeminck said:



    Seems harsh to say he's not in the same league given how close he came to beating Pogacar at the Tour. Is Pogacar better - probably - but Roglic is still going to be one of his major rivals in any grand tour.

    He will be. But last year Pogacar was a 21 year old debutant with a weak team that lost a minute and a half in crosswinds. I don't think he'll get a better chance without a crash.
    I don't think even Pog would be able to repeat that TT.

    _
  • phreak
    phreak Posts: 2,953
    RichN95. said:

    DeVlaeminck said:



    Seems harsh to say he's not in the same league given how close he came to beating Pogacar at the Tour. Is Pogacar better - probably - but Roglic is still going to be one of his major rivals in any grand tour.

    He will be. But last year Pogacar was a 21 year old debutant with a weak team that lost a minute and a half in crosswinds. I don't think he'll get a better chance without a crash.
    Ullrich was supposed to win half a dozen Tours as well. It will be interesting to see if McNulty and Hirschi can step up to domestique duties as you would imagine teams will try to work him over in a way they didn't last year as JV assumed their tactic of towing Roglic to the final 500m of climbs would do the job and he wouldn't collapse in the final TT.

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