Giro 2021:- Stage 5: Modena – Cattolica 175 km **Spoilers**

jimmyjams

blazing_saddles said:

huret said:

Roadside video of Landa crash. Doesn't sound like the marshall had a whistle.
https://www.facebook.com/inbicimagazine/videos/5365159496892223/

I think he was more in need of a gun, than a whistle.
Was it that man Molano again, who decided to switch sides at the very last second, with team mate, Dombrowski in his wheel?

https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1392544619108478983

It wasn't a great move by whoever it was in front who decided to change lanes, although it did look like he'd be squeezed on the left side. Eitherway, what that rider did doesn't an any way exonerate Dombrovski, who actually had less need to move to the right, and more crossover distance to cover (in less forward-going distance).

kingstongraham

jimmyjams said:

blazing_saddles said:

huret said:

Roadside video of Landa crash. Doesn't sound like the marshall had a whistle.
https://www.facebook.com/inbicimagazine/videos/5365159496892223/

I think he was more in need of a gun, than a whistle.
Was it that man Molano again, who decided to switch sides at the very last second, with team mate, Dombrowski in his wheel?

https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1392544619108478983

It wasn't a great move by whoever it was in front who decided to change lanes, although it did look like he'd be squeezed on the left side. Eitherway, what that rider did doesn't an any way exonerate Dombrovski, who actually had less need to move to the right, and more crossover distance to cover (in less forward-going distance).

I think Dombrowski just looked up and there was a marshal about 2 feet in front of him. To be fair to the Giro - he was the only one who didn't see the obstacle in loads of time.

jimmyjams

Pross said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I do wonder if the marshall needs to be that far in front of the road furniture - I get that he's there to provide an advance warning but who provides the advance warning about the marshall stood in the road. With no whistle arguably he's just another obstacle to hit.

I don't think he's that far in front, only 2m or so and seems to be stood in the hatched road markings. It also looks like a fairly straight approach so there should have been plenty of warning. Just riders losing concentration momentarily at the end of a long, boring stage.

Looks to me more like 3.5 - 4.0 m.
De Gendt said afterwards “We knew something was going to be in the middle. We were told that by radio and I think everyone knew. But in the hustle and bustle you forget that sometimes."

daniel_b

kingstongraham said:

daniel_b said:

Perhaps putting him on a small platform behind the padded area would have made him more visible.
But it's clear from the video it's the last second change from the 3 riders as mentioned above, that caused the carnage. Landa especially unfortunate, as he was a total passenger it seems.

Additionally, could they not utilise some of the flashing arrow type things they use for roadworks? - Hoist it\elevate it up high, and everyone would see it from distance.

La Flamme Rouge posted this yesterday as well. Nothing's 100% guaranteed to work.

https://twitter.com/laflammerouge16/status/1392505477393784833

No true enough, I was thinking more along the lines of the roadworks arrows I have seen definitely in France, possibly Italy, and I think they have started appearing here now.

They are huge - like the width of a van, and have what I refer to as a retina burning pulsing flash that is impossible to miss - although I suppose it could blind riders temporarily if they look directly at it - if there was a way to build a bit of framework with something that bright - doesn't need to be an arrow, just a 'warning or exclamation' symbol perhaps.

Could they also not state in the road book that at a certain km mark, there is a hazard coming up, and you need to choose your side of the road by this certain point and not deviate (A penalty of some kind if they do?) - they could also include the fact that no side is any less/more beneficial than the other like in this case.
And then perhaps the teams DS's could re-inforce this over the radio ahead of time.

huret

This morning's Boulting-Millar podcast (recorded after Dombrowski win and before crash), David Millar saying Dombrowski always showed good numbers but struggled with the non-climbing part of pro racing, descents, crosswinds,general bike handling skills ........ Turned out to be ironic a few hours later.

vincesummerskRoxcBTr

I bet the warning man was glad he kept his motorcycle gear on! Not sure I would want to volunteer for that

kingstongraham

It actually was far from an invisible obstacle to anyone else. Dombrowski highlighted.

Dorset_Boy

I'm pretty certain they are using the flashing signs at the Giro, but in reality they can't put one up for every bit of road furniture on the route.

bobmcstuff

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Yeah I get very lost on these threads at the moment.

A “x wins” would be helpful. When skimming between Landa crash info I took “Ewan takes it” to be related to the crash in some way.

Dorset_Boy said:

Ewan from Nizzolo after Merlier uncliped.

Like that was in between the crash chat so whilst scanning I thought they were caught up in it

Whilst I've criticised some spoiler threads where there have been cryptic comments about the result but no mention of the actual winner I'm not sure how:

"Ewan from Nizzolo after Merlier uncliped."

"Ewan takes it with Nizzolo getting yet another Giro second place."

Or

"Ewan from Nizzolo?

I wasn't sure he had come round but Hatch was."

Followed by

"Oh yeah, Ewan very clear from the overhead"

Can be seen as anything other than the result.

Yeah mine were the last two and I thought I was being pretty clear - which was deliberate because I also get frustrated with unclear spoiler threads...

Pross

kingstongraham said:

huret said:

Roadside video of Landa crash. Doesn't sound like the marshall had a whistle.
https://www.facebook.com/inbicimagazine/videos/5365159496892223/

Christ. He's not much more visible than the obstacle is he?

The flags pretty bright though and every other rider managed to see him. Could certainly have done with a full high vis set up though (although does fluo orange / yellow stand out in a peloton containing Italian teams and EF kit?).

Pross

daniel_b said:

Perhaps putting him on a small platform behind the padded area would have made him more visible.
But it's clear from the video it's the last second change from the 3 riders as mentioned above, that caused the carnage. Landa especially unfortunate, as he was a total passenger it seems.

Additionally or instead even, could they not utilise some of the flashing arrow type things they use for roadworks? - Hoist it\elevate it up high, and everyone would see it from distance, including team cars - who could radio the team.

It's a hell of a lot of those signs required to cover every island though. I still think this was mainly due to lack of attention by the rider leading Dombrowski rather than a lack of warning of the obstacle. They were quite a way from the front and everyone in front had avoided the island comfortably with no obvious late swerves.

There were several other islands that were much more of a problem, one section in particular where a rider (can't remember who) had a low speed collision with the barriers was ridiculously tight and narrow.

daniel_b

Agreed, looking at the zoomed in slow motion overhead in more detail, the rider in front leaves a fairly big gap when he navigates to the right hand channel, but it appears that the chap who struck the flag man barely deviates at all, perhaps he wasn't really looking up/forwards at the time or until it was simply too late - think flag man 'may' have taken a step to his right to try and avoid the collision even, but I guess at that speed it was milliseconds and he didn't really have anywhere to go safely, due to the flow of riders on his right.
You can imagine the lambasting he would have been in for had he rushed out of the way only to take down more riders on the other side.

kingstongraham

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

huret said:

Roadside video of Landa crash. Doesn't sound like the marshall had a whistle.
https://www.facebook.com/inbicimagazine/videos/5365159496892223/

Christ. He's not much more visible than the obstacle is he?

The flags pretty bright though and every other rider managed to see him. Could certainly have done with a full high vis set up though (although does fluo orange / yellow stand out in a peloton containing Italian teams and EF kit?).

What I meant was that the obstacle is already decked out in better hi-viz, he's just another obstacle a bit further forward.

jimmyjams

Pross said:

daniel_b said:

Perhaps putting him on a small platform behind the padded area would have made him more visible.
But it's clear from the video it's the last second change from the 3 riders as mentioned above, that caused the carnage. Landa especially unfortunate, as he was a total passenger it seems.

Additionally or instead even, could they not utilise some of the flashing arrow type things they use for roadworks? - Hoist it\elevate it up high, and everyone would see it from distance, including team cars - who could radio the team.

It's a hell of a lot of those signs required to cover every island though. I still think this was mainly due to lack of attention by the rider leading Dombrowski rather than a lack of warning of the obstacle. They were quite a way from the front and everyone in front had avoided the island comfortably with no obvious late swerves.

There were several other islands that were much more of a problem, one section in particular where a rider (can't remember who) had a low speed collision with the barriers was ridiculously tight and narrow.

One can't shove the responsibility off.

DeVlaeminck

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

huret said:

Roadside video of Landa crash. Doesn't sound like the marshall had a whistle.
https://www.facebook.com/inbicimagazine/videos/5365159496892223/

Christ. He's not much more visible than the obstacle is he?

The flags pretty bright though and every other rider managed to see him. Could certainly have done with a full high vis set up though (although does fluo orange / yellow stand out in a peloton containing Italian teams and EF kit?).

What I meant was that the obstacle is already decked out in better hi-viz, he's just another obstacle a bit further forward.

Yes that's also my opinion - how does sticking another obstacle on the road make it any safer. At least the road furniture has white warning paint on the road .

For me the flag man could have stood just behind the bollard effectively making it higher and had a whistle to add an audible warning.

blazing_saddles

The casualty rate from that crash becomes 100%. Dombrowski out too.

https://twitter.com/TeamEmiratesUAE/status/1392770823044440065

womack

Can I just say Nicolas Edet now up to 5th.

bobmcstuff

Big shame about Dombrowski, he was looking good. Obviously a big shame about Landa etc. too, but Dombrowski was looking like finally living up to some of his promise.

larkim

Surely the only way to eliminate the risk of something like that happening is to remove all road furniture from the last 5km or so. Beyond that it's a case of team cars keeping riders alert via roadbook info over the radio, riders keeping themselves alert in response, and lady luck being on the race's side. Riders make mistakes and accidents follow; pope Catholic; bears defecate in woods etc.

Pross

Did Sivakov have any broken bones? I saw the Ineos comments that he has withdrawn after injuring his shoulder. I'm probably being unfair (and slightly hypocritical as I'm not a fan of riders being put back on bikes and pressured to ride with injuries) but he does seem to give up quite easily after a fall and maybe lack a bit of the mental toughness he'll need if he is to become a genuine GT contender. I know he dragged his way through last year's Tour after crashing twice on one of the first stages but again he didn't look like he wanted to continue. He feels a bit Pinotesque.

andyrr

Wonder with Sivakov whether he might have the possible carrot of a place on the tour squad if takes a short recovery break from yesterday’s incident then restarts with a new focus?

Pross

Great onboard footage from yesterday's finish. Seeing that you wonder have there aren't far more crashes in those technical run ins.

RichN95.

Pross said:

Did Sivakov have any broken bones? I saw the Ineos comments that he has withdrawn after injuring his shoulder. I'm probably being unfair (and slightly hypocritical as I'm not a fan of riders being put back on bikes and pressured to ride with injuries) but he does seem to give up quite easily after a fall and maybe lack a bit of the mental toughness he'll need if he is to become a genuine GT contender. I know he dragged his way through last year's Tour after crashing twice on one of the first stages but again he didn't look like he wanted to continue. He feels a bit Pinotesque.

At least year's Tour he crashed on stage 1 and rode mostly solo for 100km in terrible weather, finishing 13 minutes down

Pross

RichN95. said:

Pross said:

Did Sivakov have any broken bones? I saw the Ineos comments that he has withdrawn after injuring his shoulder. I'm probably being unfair (and slightly hypocritical as I'm not a fan of riders being put back on bikes and pressured to ride with injuries) but he does seem to give up quite easily after a fall and maybe lack a bit of the mental toughness he'll need if he is to become a genuine GT contender. I know he dragged his way through last year's Tour after crashing twice on one of the first stages but again he didn't look like he wanted to continue. He feels a bit Pinotesque.

At least year's Tour he crashed on stage 1 and rode mostly solo for 100km in terrible weather, finishing 13 minutes down

As I said, I'm probably being unfair but he really didn't look like he wanted to continue after the first crash and the same yesterday. With a lot of riders al they seem to want to do is get back on and try to get back to the race (often when they shouldn't). In both instances with Sivakov it felt like he wanted to get back in the car but was being told he couldn't. That was a heavy fall yesterday and I can understand it, I'm sure we've all had to try to ride home after a heavy fall at times and it's horrible even when it is a short ride at your own pace but compare it to the time Thomas rode the whole Tour with a broken cocyx or whatever it was and last year when he kept trying to push on at the Giro.

kingstongraham

Bernal said in an interview shown during the race today that Sivakov had a broken collar bone.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

Bernal said in an interview shown during the race today that Sivakov had a broken collar bone.

Fair enough, I'd heard a shoulder injury but nothing regarding a break

m.r.m.

The actual crashing is the bigger problem. Ineos have their type. 😉😜

jimmyjams

Pross said:

kingstongraham said:

Bernal said in an interview shown during the race today that Sivakov had a broken collar bone.

Fair enough, I'd heard a shoulder injury but nothing regarding a break

Ineos-Grenadiers Doctor Derick Macleod said: "Pavel has unfortunately landed heavily on his shoulder and damaged a plate he had in his clavicle from a previous injury, so he will need surgery to fix this“.
He must have broken his collarbone/clavicle in the last year to still have a plate in; I wonder if after he finished the Tour, it was found his collarbone had been broken in one of his crashes then, so a plate was put in.