The Tax Thread
Comments
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But near on 100% on the population rely on an NHS suitably staffed and funded to look after them when they most need it.john80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.0 -
I'm afraid this fails the logic testjohn80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
I'd suggest that not everyone on all of these scales should necessarily be treated as requiring the same increase in their basic salary.
https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/consultants-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-consultants-in-england
https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england
https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/0 -
I've just seen that there will be a clap for all the hard working delivery drivers who have selflessly kept us supplied with stuff during lockdown. The clap will be tomorrow at some time between 8am and 6pm.john80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]1 -
It should be noted in the context of this debate that the majority of nurses that the public will have treating them will be Band 5. So currently £24,907 to £30,615.kingstongraham said:I'd suggest that not everyone on all of these scales should necessarily be treated as requiring the same increase in their basic salary.
https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/consultants-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-consultants-in-england
https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england
https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Yes your comment does fail the logic test.pangolin said:
I'm afraid this fails the logic testjohn80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.
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Ah the fantastic response of "no you", usually not seen outside a primary school playground.john80 said:
Yes your comment does fail the logic test.pangolin said:
I'm afraid this fails the logic testjohn80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.
50% is waaay off. Around 83% of working people do not work in the public sector.
But we're talking specifically about the NHS. About 1.5 million people work for the NHS. So we're down to about 4.5% of the working population.
Most of this discussion is about nurses. There are something like 300k nurses.
So my first question is where have you pulled this "more than 50%" from?
And the second is, why is it relevant? It could be 0.01% of the population, but if we depend on them to get us healthy when we're unwell we should be paying them well enough that competent people want to do it.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Well done you have just confirmed that even more of the population don't work in the public sector and therefore don't have a vested interest in the government giving out 12% pay increases at the drop of a hat to a particular profession. You make the assumption that we currently are not paying enough for competent people. Where is your evidence for that claim. To be a nurse in the current climate you have to have a degree in nursing. So my measure of this would be can the government keep enough nurses in position with the proposed remuneration which includes the complete package and not just money and train enough people to meet their commitments. If the answer is no they need to pay them more or concoct some other benefits to retain or attract. If the answer is yes then the pay and reward package is adequate. If they can't meet their target of an extra 50k nurses in the timescales they stated then flame away but until then I won't be jumping on the feel good bandwagon of 12% pay increases for nurses. I can however get on board with a 12% increase in the minimum wage that would assist many more people including this wiping bums in nursing homes. I am sure you would be happy to pay increases costs for goods and services to meet this or higher taxes to pay for it. Seems fair after all.pangolin said:
Ah the fantastic response of "no you", usually not seen outside a primary school playground.john80 said:
Yes your comment does fail the logic test.pangolin said:
I'm afraid this fails the logic testjohn80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.
50% is waaay off. Around 83% of working people do not work in the public sector.
But we're talking specifically about the NHS. About 1.5 million people work for the NHS. So we're down to about 4.5% of the working population.
Most of this discussion is about nurses. There are something like 300k nurses.
So my first question is where have you pulled this "more than 50%" from?
And the second is, why is it relevant? It could be 0.01% of the population, but if we depend on them to get us healthy when we're unwell we should be paying them well enough that competent people want to do it.0 -
Aren't there are currently 40k nursing vacancies?
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It's not a job, it's a vocation.rick_chasey said:
Yes. It's almost like it's a sh!t job with no rewards.Jezyboy said:Aren't there are currently 40k nursing vacancies?
Therefore they should just do it for the love.
(/s)0 -
Current and previous governments have relied on this too much. They will find out sooner or later that for a high percentage of the younger staff it is very much a job.Jezyboy said:
It's not a job, it's a vocation.rick_chasey said:
Yes. It's almost like it's a sh!t job with no rewards.Jezyboy said:Aren't there are currently 40k nursing vacancies?
Therefore they should just do it for the love.
(/s)The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Plenty of overtime in the last year, swings and roundabouts.0
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I don't think you're likely to pay any more or less tax based on the result of this relatively modest pay negotiation.john80 said:
Yes your comment does fail the logic test.pangolin said:
I'm afraid this fails the logic testjohn80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
You'll have noticed the announced tax rises in the recent budget. We are payingjohn80 said:
Well done you have just confirmed that even more of the population don't work in the public sector and therefore don't have a vested interest in the government giving out 12% pay increases at the drop of a hat to a particular profession. You make the assumption that we currently are not paying enough for competent people. Where is your evidence for that claim. To be a nurse in the current climate you have to have a degree in nursing. So my measure of this would be can the government keep enough nurses in position with the proposed remuneration which includes the complete package and not just money and train enough people to meet their commitments. If the answer is no they need to pay them more or concoct some other benefits to retain or attract. If the answer is yes then the pay and reward package is adequate. If they can't meet their target of an extra 50k nurses in the timescales they stated then flame away but until then I won't be jumping on the feel good bandwagon of 12% pay increases for nurses. I can however get on board with a 12% increase in the minimum wage that would assist many more people including this wiping bums in nursing homes. I am sure you would be happy to pay increases costs for goods and services to meet this or higher taxes to pay for it. Seems fair after all.pangolin said:
Ah the fantastic response of "no you", usually not seen outside a primary school playground.john80 said:
Yes your comment does fail the logic test.pangolin said:
I'm afraid this fails the logic testjohn80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.
50% is waaay off. Around 83% of working people do not work in the public sector.
But we're talking specifically about the NHS. About 1.5 million people work for the NHS. So we're down to about 4.5% of the working population.
Most of this discussion is about nurses. There are something like 300k nurses.
So my first question is where have you pulled this "more than 50%" from?
And the second is, why is it relevant? It could be 0.01% of the population, but if we depend on them to get us healthy when we're unwell we should be paying them well enough that competent people want to do it.
Well I got it. 🙂Stevo_666 said:
I've just seen that there will be a clap for all the hard working delivery drivers who have selflessly kept us supplied with stuff during lockdown. The clap will be tomorrow at some time between 8am and 6pm.john80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
The smaller the % of population actually doing these jobs the larger the case for paying them more. It costs a lot less to give 5% of people a raise than 50%.john80 said:
Well done you have just confirmed that even more of the population don't work in the public sector and therefore don't have a vested interest in the government giving out 12% pay increases at the drop of a hat to a particular profession.pangolin said:
Ah the fantastic response of "no you", usually not seen outside a primary school playground.john80 said:
Yes your comment does fail the logic test.pangolin said:
I'm afraid this fails the logic testjohn80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.
50% is waaay off. Around 83% of working people do not work in the public sector.
But we're talking specifically about the NHS. About 1.5 million people work for the NHS. So we're down to about 4.5% of the working population.
Most of this discussion is about nurses. There are something like 300k nurses.
So my first question is where have you pulled this "more than 50%" from?
And the second is, why is it relevant? It could be 0.01% of the population, but if we depend on them to get us healthy when we're unwell we should be paying them well enough that competent people want to do it.
The fact that they can't fill the positions... sorry I thought that was obvious.john80 said:You make the assumption that we currently are not paying enough for competent people. Where is your evidence for that claim.
By jove he's got it.john80 said:To be a nurse in the current climate you have to have a degree in nursing. So my measure of this would be can the government keep enough nurses in position with the proposed remuneration which includes the complete package and not just money and train enough people to meet their commitments. If the answer is no they need to pay them more or concoct some other benefits to retain or attract.
The answer was no so this is mostly irrelevant.john80 said:If the answer is yes then the pay and reward package is adequate. If they can't meet their target of an extra 50k nurses in the timescales they stated then flame away but until then I won't be jumping on the feel good bandwagon of 12% pay increases for nurses. I can however get on board with a 12% increase in the minimum wage that would assist many more people including this wiping bums in nursing homes. I am sure you would be happy to pay increases costs for goods and services to meet this or higher taxes to pay for it. Seems fair after all.
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
It was a funny joke... last April 😀rjsterry said:
Well I got it. 🙂Stevo_666 said:
I've just seen that there will be a clap for all the hard working delivery drivers who have selflessly kept us supplied with stuff during lockdown. The clap will be tomorrow at some time between 8am and 6pm.
(Fair play, it did deserve another outing.)1 -
My wife manages around 30 staff in the care sector and she gets paid roughly the same as a newly qualified nurse. The staff working under her get slightly above the National Living Wage. They don't have a DB pension scheme and are paid only statutory sick pay if ill. This isn't because the employer is being greedy and manipulating staff, it's because the company has a contract to provide services to the public sector and the Council budgets are insufficient to allow them to pay more.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.
The support workers I would say are on a par with Band 2 nursing assistants in the NHS. My wife's role probably has a managerial and qualification equivalent of a Band 6 or 7 nurse although the nurses have a more technical role so it's impossible to do a direct comparison. So support workers are earning around £3-4k less than their closest NHS counterparts without taking account of all the other benefits whilst at managerial level that is probably more like £10k.
Do I think nurses deserve more money? In comparison to many other jobs people do, yes definitely and 12.5% might not be unreasonable but by the same measure the money should be made available to allow those working in care (whether it's directly for Councils or the companies they contract to provide those services) to be paid at an equivalent level. Then there are other jobs that are undervalued / underpaid such as teaching assistants. The question is, if nurses are deemed worthy of such a big salary increase what about these other vital and underfunded services? If they are all worthy then this pay bill is getting bigger and bigger.
Oh, and as I've said on here several times before I didn't do the clap for the NHS / carers / essential workers. I always said it was a hollow gesture that was mainly about people trying to point score against their neighbours.1 -
Social care was notably absent from the budget. There are vague mutterings about something being published later, but either the budget is utterly unreliable as a plan for public spending or social care is not getting any more money. Until it is put on an equivalent standing to healthcare I suspect it will keep getting fobbed off. As far back as the late 90s it was known that something needed to be done but we've managed to put it off for quarter of a century so far.Pross said:
My wife manages around 30 staff in the care sector and she gets paid roughly the same as a newly qualified nurse. The staff working under her get slightly above the National Living Wage. They don't have a DB pension scheme and are paid only statutory sick pay if ill. This isn't because the employer is being greedy and manipulating staff, it's because the company has a contract to provide services to the public sector and the Council budgets are insufficient to allow them to pay more.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.
The support workers I would say are on a par with Band 2 nursing assistants in the NHS. My wife's role probably has a managerial and qualification equivalent of a Band 6 or 7 nurse although the nurses have a more technical role so it's impossible to do a direct comparison. So support workers are earning around £3-4k less than their closest NHS counterparts without taking account of all the other benefits whilst at managerial level that is probably more like £10k.
Do I think nurses deserve more money? In comparison to many other jobs people do, yes definitely and 12.5% might not be unreasonable but by the same measure the money should be made available to allow those working in care (whether it's directly for Councils or the companies they contract to provide those services) to be paid at an equivalent level. Then there are other jobs that are undervalued / underpaid such as teaching assistants. The question is, if nurses are deemed worthy of such a big salary increase what about these other vital and underfunded services? If they are all worthy then this pay bill is getting bigger and bigger.
Oh, and as I've said on here several times before I didn't do the clap for the NHS / carers / essential workers. I always said it was a hollow gesture that was mainly about people trying to point score against their neighbours.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
Repeated Governments have found social care to be too big a problem to solve, so keep kicking that can down the road,which is why they invented corona virus.
Who is going to sanction and NHS for social care now?0 -
Good to see you predicting an outcome early. Hope you are not hat eating on this one.pangolin said:
The smaller the % of population actually doing these jobs the larger the case for paying them more. It costs a lot less to give 5% of people a raise than 50%.john80 said:
Well done you have just confirmed that even more of the population don't work in the public sector and therefore don't have a vested interest in the government giving out 12% pay increases at the drop of a hat to a particular profession.pangolin said:
Ah the fantastic response of "no you", usually not seen outside a primary school playground.john80 said:
Yes your comment does fail the logic test.pangolin said:
I'm afraid this fails the logic testjohn80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.
50% is waaay off. Around 83% of working people do not work in the public sector.
But we're talking specifically about the NHS. About 1.5 million people work for the NHS. So we're down to about 4.5% of the working population.
Most of this discussion is about nurses. There are something like 300k nurses.
So my first question is where have you pulled this "more than 50%" from?
And the second is, why is it relevant? It could be 0.01% of the population, but if we depend on them to get us healthy when we're unwell we should be paying them well enough that competent people want to do it.
The fact that they can't fill the positions... sorry I thought that was obvious.john80 said:You make the assumption that we currently are not paying enough for competent people. Where is your evidence for that claim.
By jove he's got it.john80 said:To be a nurse in the current climate you have to have a degree in nursing. So my measure of this would be can the government keep enough nurses in position with the proposed remuneration which includes the complete package and not just money and train enough people to meet their commitments. If the answer is no they need to pay them more or concoct some other benefits to retain or attract.
The answer was no so this is mostly irrelevant.john80 said:If the answer is yes then the pay and reward package is adequate. If they can't meet their target of an extra 50k nurses in the timescales they stated then flame away but until then I won't be jumping on the feel good bandwagon of 12% pay increases for nurses. I can however get on board with a 12% increase in the minimum wage that would assist many more people including this wiping bums in nursing homes. I am sure you would be happy to pay increases costs for goods and services to meet this or higher taxes to pay for it. Seems fair after all.
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Roll it out to all those other underpaid jobs and I think you will be surprised.rjsterry said:
I don't think you're likely to pay any more or less tax based on the result of this relatively modest pay negotiation.john80 said:
Yes your comment does fail the logic test.pangolin said:
I'm afraid this fails the logic testjohn80 said:
Maybe one for the unpopular views thread however I did not clap for them as nurses and all the other NHS staff as a group are not much if any more worthy than the countless jobs that get done by people throughout this pandemic. Did you clap for binmen, posties and check out workers through the pandemic. Did you clap for all the young families working in the tourism sector that were lucky if they could get on furlough and destitute if they could not. The governments job is to set the pay of public sector workers at a level where enough people are interested in doing it, enough stay in the profession to balance the cost of training excessive new staff to give the maximum benefit to the public purse and keep skills at a acceptable level. By all means criticise the governments position if they don't deliver on their nurse numbers they have stated as the pay was obviously too low or the soft benefits not sufficient. Remember that more than 50% of the population do not work for the government and therefore have a vested interest in the government not splashing cash around.rick_chasey said:I honestly am surprised that so many of you think 12% is too much for nurses or indeed anyone who’s been working in hospital.
Nuts. I bet you clapped for them. I’m not a signed up member of the hypocrisy police but that takes the p!ss.
Genuinely thought you lot were not that awful.0
