The Rugby Thread

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  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,587
    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,572
    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    I think this is going to remain a bugbear of mine. Teams progress mostly due to an easy draw and thus get an easy draw next time? Nuts. The seedings should be much more current imo.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,587
    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    I think this is going to remain a bugbear of mine. Teams progress mostly due to an easy draw and thus get an easy draw next time? Nuts. The seedings should be much more current imo.
    I get that but how else should they do it? I'm guessing Fiji will be seeded higher than they were in this world cup . . . great for Fiji (and well deserved) but another national team will need to give way (and suck it up!)

    England had two "Tier 1" nations in their group. They beat one of those (Argentina) with what, for me, was one of England's greatest world cup performances. 14 men for 70 odd minutes and they had one of the world's top sides beaten with 15 minutes to go. Argentina are in a WC semi final.

    They beat the other Tier one Nation (Japan) by 22 points.

    They put lowly Chile to the sword 71-0 just as any other top nation would have been expected to do.

    They had a dodgy match/performance against Samoa.

    They just got to the semi finals by beating a team that roundly battered them a couple of weeks before the World Cup.

    Now, I am not for one minute suggesting that England are about to win the World Cup (or even about to win next Saturday) but I do wonder where a lot of the negativity surrounding England in this world cup comes from. If anyone suggests "style of play" is a reason for negativity, I'll laugh!

    Wilier Izoard XP
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,572
    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    I think this is going to remain a bugbear of mine. Teams progress mostly due to an easy draw and thus get an easy draw next time? Nuts. The seedings should be much more current imo.
    I get that but how else should they do it?
    ...
    How late can the draw be made? I'd suggest a heavy weighting on the 12 months prior.
    They could also learn from football and weigh points against the opposition. (If they don't).
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    Has the RWC not heard of ELO ratings?
    _
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,587
    rick_chasey said:

    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    Has the RWC not heard of ELO ratings?
    I haven't heard of ELO ratings.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,274
    Pool B had the teams ranked 1st, 2nd and 5th in it.
    Pool D had the teams ranked 6th, 8th and 12th in it.

    England have done well to get out in first place, but only considering they went in to the tournament bad enough to only be ranked 8th. They've just looked pedestrian compared to the good teams.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    laurentian said:

    rick_chasey said:

    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    Has the RWC not heard of ELO ratings?
    I haven't heard of ELO ratings.
    ELO ratings measure how good you are by looking at who you have beaten.

    Works best in games with only 2 opponents/teams per match.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
    _
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,587
    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    I think this is going to remain a bugbear of mine. Teams progress mostly due to an easy draw and thus get an easy draw next time? Nuts. The seedings should be much more current imo.
    I get that but how else should they do it?
    ...
    How late can the draw be made? I'd suggest a heavy weighting on the 12 months prior.
    They could also learn from football and weigh points against the opposition. (If they don't).
    Sure but then there will be a moan that a couple of recent results (due to injury etc) have affected the seeding.

    Every FIFA world cup or UEFA Euros has a "group of death" it's always the way with these things however they are done. The only other alternative that I can see is more groups to spread the "entitled" nations across. More groups would equal fewer teams from each group going through and the liklihood of a "smaller" nation going through being diminished.
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,572
    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    I think this is going to remain a bugbear of mine. Teams progress mostly due to an easy draw and thus get an easy draw next time? Nuts. The seedings should be much more current imo.
    I get that but how else should they do it?
    ...
    How late can the draw be made? I'd suggest a heavy weighting on the 12 months prior.
    They could also learn from football and weigh points against the opposition. (If they don't).
    Sure but then there will be a moan that a couple of recent results (due to injury etc) have affected the seeding.

    Sure. But it would be better than based on 4 year old form.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • laurentian
    laurentian Posts: 2,587
    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    I think this is going to remain a bugbear of mine. Teams progress mostly due to an easy draw and thus get an easy draw next time? Nuts. The seedings should be much more current imo.
    I get that but how else should they do it?
    ...
    How late can the draw be made? I'd suggest a heavy weighting on the 12 months prior.
    They could also learn from football and weigh points against the opposition. (If they don't).
    Sure but then there will be a moan that a couple of recent results (due to injury etc) have affected the seeding.

    Sure. But it would be better than based on 4 year old form.
    Whether it's "better" would depend on your form 4 years ago!

    Seeding has traditionally been based on the World Rugby Rankings after the November international test window. I think that Covid meant that rankings were a bit skewed when the draw was made in 2020 and I think another factor was that France wanted an early "buy in" as they have the Olympics in 2024 . . .
    Wilier Izoard XP
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,572
    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    I think this is going to remain a bugbear of mine. Teams progress mostly due to an easy draw and thus get an easy draw next time? Nuts. The seedings should be much more current imo.
    I get that but how else should they do it?
    ...
    How late can the draw be made? I'd suggest a heavy weighting on the 12 months prior.
    They could also learn from football and weigh points against the opposition. (If they don't).
    Sure but then there will be a moan that a couple of recent results (due to injury etc) have affected the seeding.

    Sure. But it would be better than based on 4 year old form.
    Whether it's "better" would depend on your form 4 years ago!

    Seeding has traditionally been based on the World Rugby Rankings after the November international test window. I think that Covid meant that rankings were a bit skewed when the draw was made in 2020 and I think another factor was that France wanted an early "buy in" as they have the Olympics in 2024 . . .
    Sorry. For "better" read "accurate". My issue isn't the current rankings, it is what rankings are used when making the draw and how early the draw is made.
    There is a disconnect at the current World Cup.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,661
    Ranking a team based on a performance 4 years ago and since which many of the players may have retired feels ridiculous. The problem is that rugby world rankings aren't great, Wales were top on and off in the build up to 2019 but there's no way they were ever the best rugby playing nation during that time. It doesn't help that, other than a few tour games, the season is split with hal the countries playing at a different time of year to the others. Football has the benefit of 4 years of qualifying matches to establish a reasonably accurate ranking system (although here are obviously big differences in the conferences).
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,699
    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    pblakeney said:

    laurentian said:

    I would like to take this opportunity to mention that progression through this world cup may well have a bearing on where a team is seeded for the next one (just in case its cited as a reason for certain teams progressing in 2027 at the expense of others)

    I think this is going to remain a bugbear of mine. Teams progress mostly due to an easy draw and thus get an easy draw next time? Nuts. The seedings should be much more current imo.
    I get that but how else should they do it?
    ...
    How late can the draw be made? I'd suggest a heavy weighting on the 12 months prior.
    They could also learn from football and weigh points against the opposition. (If they don't).
    Sure but then there will be a moan that a couple of recent results (due to injury etc) have affected the seeding.

    Sure. But it would be better than based on 4 year old form.
    Whether it's "better" would depend on your form 4 years ago!

    Seeding has traditionally been based on the World Rugby Rankings after the November international test window. I think that Covid meant that rankings were a bit skewed when the draw was made in 2020 and I think another factor was that France wanted an early "buy in" as they have the Olympics in 2024 . . .
    The draw for the most recent men's footy world cup was in April 2022, so only circa 6 months before squads were selected. It feels like an un-necessary shot in the foot by World Rugby to do their draw over two years before the competition as so much can (and in this case has) change in such a time period.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,274
    They can sell tickets well in advance knowing who's going to be playing this way, can't they?
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,274
    It's just one of those things - it meant we got four good quarter finals, but I fear we won't get two good semi finals.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,572
    kingstongraham said:

    It's just one of those things - it meant we got four good quarter finals, but I fear we won't get two good semi finals.

    Subjective I'd guess. Imo we got 2 really good quarters, one half decent, and one poor.
    Imo the semis are likely to be unbalanced too.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,274
    pblakeney said:

    kingstongraham said:

    It's just one of those things - it meant we got four good quarter finals, but I fear we won't get two good semi finals.

    Subjective I'd guess. Imo we got 2 really good quarters, one half decent, and one poor.
    Imo the semis are likely to be unbalanced too.
    I guess maybe I'd say two exceptional and exciting, and two exciting. The winner of none of them was certain until after the 75th minute.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,572
    kingstongraham said:

    pblakeney said:

    kingstongraham said:

    It's just one of those things - it meant we got four good quarter finals, but I fear we won't get two good semi finals.

    Subjective I'd guess. Imo we got 2 really good quarters, one half decent, and one poor.
    Imo the semis are likely to be unbalanced too.
    I guess maybe I'd say two exceptional and exciting, and two exciting. The winner of none of them was certain until after the 75th minute.
    That's fair.
    My comment was about the quality of play, not the result.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,274
    Dorset_Boy said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I see Dupont is moaning about the referee - any idea what he thinks was wrong?

    Final penalty was given the wrong way - right hand on ground well before left hand went for the ball, so not supoorting body weight.
    Colby almost certainly started the chargedown before the kicker moved.
    Etzebeth deliberate knock on not given - no attempt to catch, just to block the pass, with men outside, so should have been yellow.
    Etzebeth head on head would have been red at the start of tournament, no mitigation, so probably still should have been red.
    Highly likely the Saffa backs spent much of the game offside.
    Couple of knock ons in the tackle not given that resulted in big territory gains for the Saffas.
    I'd forgotten about that - it wasn't given as a knock on because it didn't go forward. Ref said that on comms I think.
  • Tashman
    Tashman Posts: 3,498
    kingstongraham said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    kingstongraham said:

    I see Dupont is moaning about the referee - any idea what he thinks was wrong?

    Final penalty was given the wrong way - right hand on ground well before left hand went for the ball, so not supoorting body weight.
    Colby almost certainly started the chargedown before the kicker moved.
    Etzebeth deliberate knock on not given - no attempt to catch, just to block the pass, with men outside, so should have been yellow.
    Etzebeth head on head would have been red at the start of tournament, no mitigation, so probably still should have been red.
    Highly likely the Saffa backs spent much of the game offside.
    Couple of knock ons in the tackle not given that resulted in big territory gains for the Saffas.
    I'd forgotten about that - it wasn't given as a knock on because it didn't go forward. Ref said that on comms I think.
    Seems fair enough, can't be a knock on if it doesn't go forwards
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,274
    :D:D:D

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,572
    I'm struggling to get behind the current team. 🤣
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,152
    edited October 2023
    kingstongraham said:

    :D:D:D

    Telegraph whiff whaff on X.

    Yeah……….

    May the best team win.

  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,297
    kingstongraham said:

    :D:D:D

    Aye right. #ABE
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,623
    Oralloon and the rest of the Scots will just support the Saffa 1st XV, instead of their usual support for the Saffa B team!
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,737
    Finally a proper angle if this. It is sensational by Kolbe...

    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJTTUQVo/
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,445
    ddraver said:

    Finally a proper angle if this. It is sensational by Kolbe...

    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJTTUQVo/

    Mental
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,661
    He certainly looked like he started his charge before the kicker started his movement on there. Incredible pace though.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,274
    Pross said:

    He certainly looked like he started his charge before the kicker started his movement on there. Incredible pace though.

    I disagree. The kicker doesn't have to have moved forward, and Kolbe knows his routine having played with him in club rugby. He started sprinting the split second that Ramos made that slight sideways move to start his approach.

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