The Rugby Thread

1151618202182

Comments

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    edited January 2022
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,659
    They're going to need a new chant now. I remember going to a gym near Rodney Parade (Newport RFC's ground) and thinking I was going nuts as I could hear a war drum and native American chanting then realised the Dragons were playing Exeter
  • Haha, quite amused at the Daily Telegraph BTL comments on Exeter Chiefs changing to a Celtic chief logo from the Native American one.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/01/27/exeter-chiefs-replace-native-american-themed-imagery-end-season/

    https://www.exeterchiefs.co.uk/news/chiefs-reveal-new-visual-identity

    Much better reading than the actual Daily Torygraph.
    Absolutely hilarious stuff just by making fun of the truth: wokeism going bananas again.

    Now for the chiefs link. Can’t wait! :D
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,736
    They've got a new chant already...it's not very good...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,623
    Pross said:

    They're going to need a new chant now. I remember going to a gym near Rodney Parade (Newport RFC's ground) and thinking I was going nuts as I could hear a war drum and native American chanting then realised the Dragons were playing Exeter

    It wasn't a chant, it was a very annoying wail.
    What will they all do with their pathetic headdresses?
  • It’s very hot and miss: this targeting of offensive names leading to a re-brand.

    Surely the team most in need of renaming is the Saracens?
    A team of predominantly WASP (couldn’t resist) players, yet named after Muslim army lead by a Muslim Kurd.

    Odd omission.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • They aren't renaming the chiefs.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885

    They aren't renaming the chiefs.


    I was actually surprised it took them so long to decide, as it was quite an easy win. Changing a names is a bigger call, though they've been doing that in American Football.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,736
    It is a tad weird that with all the possible westcountry/celtic stuff they could have gone with, they went for a native american reference...

    Never really felt like it matched with the general vibe of Exeter...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    ddraver said:

    It is a tad weird that with all the possible westcountry/celtic stuff they could have gone with, they went for a native american reference...

    Never really felt like it matched with the general vibe of Exeter...


    I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they got carried away with the graphics and paraphernalia the Native American line provided, and overlooked the cultural implications.

    At least they've come up with something passable now, and keep the name.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,623
    Chiefs was chosen as many Devon clubs call their first teams by that name.
    However, the north american cultural appropriation was simply crass.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,736
    I'm sure that is indeed their story.

    (Anyone seen my reverse engineer..? ;) )
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • They aren't renaming the chiefs.


    Okay, re-branding then.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,736
    (and they used to have a chant that was a little too close to Disney's Peter Pan and "What makes the Redman red?" The "wail" is the replacement)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,659
    I don't understand why anyone gets upset about the current logo. The team are called the Chiefs and they've used probably the most obvious image of a chief. It isn't being used in a derogatory way.

    Sure, it's not very relevant as a name for a team based in Devon but the are plenty of other sporting examples such a Leeds Rhinos.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    Pross said:

    I don't understand why anyone gets upset about the current logo. The team are called the Chiefs and they've used probably the most obvious image of a chief. It isn't being used in a derogatory way.

    Sure, it's not very relevant as a name for a team based in Devon but the are plenty of other sporting examples such a Leeds Rhinos.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    Sorry that it's the Daily Mail, but to give some context - they'd been asked to change, by Native Americans. I think it was a perfectly reasonable request.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10195367/Native-Americans-call-Exeter-Chiefs-rugby-team-change-degrading-racist-name.html
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,659
    I get the fans dressing up and doing the war drum thing, still struggling to see the issue with the logo though.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    Pross said:

    I get the fans dressing up and doing the war drum thing, still struggling to see the issue with the logo though.


    What's the connection with Exeter? None. And that's if you ignore the cultural appropriation aspect. As I say, it's an easy win to accede to the request. It was simply a marketing strategy dating from 1999, and one that has passed its use-by date.

    With the new imagery, they can create a whole new 'brand identity', without fear of offending people who Exonians have no cultural association with (and probably no understanding of).
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,659

    Pross said:

    I get the fans dressing up and doing the war drum thing, still struggling to see the issue with the logo though.


    What's the connection with Exeter? None. And that's if you ignore the cultural appropriation aspect. As I say, it's an easy win to accede to the request. It was simply a marketing strategy dating from 1999, and one that has passed its use-by date.

    With the new imagery, they can create a whole new 'brand identity', without fear of offending people who Exonians have no cultural association with (and probably no understanding of).
    Sure, the name choice has always been odd (actually, one for the trivially annoying thread is the insistence of sports teams to have a suffix these days - what's wrong with Exeter RFC?) but I always assumed they'd 'stolen' it from Waikato as the team colours are very similar too. I can't say I immediately think of Devon being Celtic either though although from the blurb with the new logo it appears it was.

    I'm surprised it has even made it onto the radar if Native Americans though, it feels like they must have people actively looking for cultural references.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    Pross said:

    Pross said:

    I get the fans dressing up and doing the war drum thing, still struggling to see the issue with the logo though.


    What's the connection with Exeter? None. And that's if you ignore the cultural appropriation aspect. As I say, it's an easy win to accede to the request. It was simply a marketing strategy dating from 1999, and one that has passed its use-by date.

    With the new imagery, they can create a whole new 'brand identity', without fear of offending people who Exonians have no cultural association with (and probably no understanding of).
    Sure, the name choice has always been odd (actually, one for the trivially annoying thread is the insistence of sports teams to have a suffix these days - what's wrong with Exeter RFC?) but I always assumed they'd 'stolen' it from Waikato as the team colours are very similar too. I can't say I immediately think of Devon being Celtic either though although from the blurb with the new logo it appears it was.

    I'm surprised it has even made it onto the radar if Native Americans though, it feels like they must have people actively looking for cultural references.

    I'm not sure why you're arguing about this. As I've said, it's a easy win in response to a polite request from a people who care about how their traditions are used and have been misused.

    Two mind games I play to decide if something is appropriate:

    1) Try it with a parallel example. Would it be OK for Exeter to take on, say, Maori imagery as a marketing ploy?

    2) Consider doing the reverse: if the current marketing imagery were Celtic, would it be a justifiable move to change it to Native American?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,659
    I'm not arguing, I just find it an odd thing to get upset about considering all the real issues Native Americans have in their homeland. How many of them are aware of rugby let alone a logo used by a team playing it thousands of miles away?
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    Pross said:

    I'm not arguing, I just find it an odd thing to get upset about considering all the real issues Native Americans have in their homeland. How many of them are aware of rugby let alone a logo used by a team playing it thousands of miles away?


    It's on their radar, so they probably do go looking for it, so that they can gradually reclaim what's theirs. I think it's entirely understandable.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    edited January 2022
    FWIW, I think the "I can't see what they are getting so offended about" line has been used as a poor excuse for too long by those who don't care who or how they offend, so it's one to avoid, especially when referring to cultures that historically have been very badly treated. It's not up to us to tell them that their offence isn't justified.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    It's taken the Washington Redskins 60 years to have a change of heart: they change on 2 February.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Redskins_name_controversy
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,659
    Maybe but I assume the intention is more of a tribute. The iconography is presumably intended to associate the team with strength and bravery. The names are always macho for that reason.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,885
    edited January 2022
    Pross said:

    Maybe but I assume the intention is more of a tribute. The iconography is presumably intended to associate the team with strength and bravery. The names are always macho for that reason.


    That might have been part of the intention, but given the history of how white culture has misused their cultural imagery, I think we should accept that that is not how it seems to Native Americans. I think increasing cultural sensitivity is a positive step.
  • I suppose the Saracens are no longer around for anyone to claim to be offended by a London club pinching their name.

    Talking of Saracens, to me, the new Exeter logo looks just like one of Saladin’s chiefs, nothing like a Celtic chief.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,736
    (I feel like there is likely to be a lot of cross over between the rugby and skiing crowd...)

    Another example from the US is that Squaw Valley has changed it's name to Pallisades Tahoe too, this year. The wind has started blowing that way recently.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,623
    Exeter have been quite slow to make the change, and a number of other clubs this season banned the headresses from their grounds, with I think Wasps having taken the lead there.

    No issue with using Chiefs for the reason I explained above and DDR concurred with. It was the cultural appropriation that cause offence.

    Mind you, the Washington team took even longer!