Dumoulin stops racing, future uncertain

RichN95.

orraloon said:

Moore and Chennaoui mistimed their Presenting Jumbo Visma 21 release of The Cycling Podcast then.

It might have been the round of media interviews that set him off

RichN95.

'Uneasy* is the head that wears a crown'

Leadership is not for everyone. It's a lot of pressure. And I don't think Dumoulin can yet go back to being just a domestique. It was noticable last season whenever Sepp Kuss was asked about future leadership he said he didn't want the pressure.
Some criticise riders for riding as super domestiques on big teams rather than leaders at other teams but the truth is they don't want the responsibility.

Last year I saw a documentary about the DJ Avicii and it was a portrait of the mental degradation of someone with too much heaped on his shoulders. The documentary ended with a happy ending as he quit music, but of course he tragically got drawn back in afterwards


*Or Heavy if you prefer Stormzy to Shakespeare

zest28

roscoe said:

zest28 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

zest28 said:

ugo.santalucia said:

neonriver said:

ugo.santalucia said:

arnuf said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I think too there is something fishy and normally in cycling that means doping

I don't see what makes this fishy. He has quit a lot things (races, teams, seasons) the last two or three years so this decision is pretty much in line with that.

I'm always a bit suspicious of riders going from hero to zero (or the other way round) in the space of a season... it's the same trajectory as Fabio Aru... to me there is only one plausible explanation... and involves the availability (or the lack of) a particularly effective pharmaceutical practice.

I do appreciate having a bad season, but here is different... we are talking about the number one (or two) in GT races, being unable to even finish a Grand Tour...

He was 7th in the tour hardly hero to zero

Up to 2016, he was a fast time triallist, like Tony Martin... in 2017-2018 he basically was the number 1 (or 2) in Grand Tours, then in 2019 and 2020 he DNF 2 of them and finished 7th in the Tour, 8 minutes behind the winner and courtesy of being part of by far the strongest team in the race... had he been in a different team, he wouldn't have made the top 20.

Bottom line, he goes from zero to hero and back to zero...

AND, as I said, I never quite believed what he did up Oropa was genuine... he did beat Zakarin, Quintana, Landa, Pinot, Yates and Nibali.
He did remind me a lot of Berzin for some reason...

What are you smoking? Tom Dumoulin was together with Wout Van Aerts the reason why Team Ineos got destroyed in the Tour De France.

Guys like Bernal got smoked after Van Aerts passed the ball to Tom Dumoulin to time-trail the Jumbo-Visma train up the mountains. Only guys like Pogacar and Porte were able to hang on to the Jumbo-Visma train.

If you call Tom Dumoulin a zero, who was one of the strongest riders in the Tour De France last year, then what is everybody else then?

Tom Dumoulin will be missed by Jumbo-Visma, he was not a zero like you claim him to be.

I don't recall Dumoulin managing more than about 500m on the front after WvA, before he blew himself.
It was WvA and Sepp Kuss who dragged Roglic around France, not Tom D.

Check the stage where Bernal got knocked out of the TdF. First Van Aerts did a huge effort and then Van Aerts called it quits and dropped back to Bernal. And then Tom Dumoulin TT the entire Jumbo-Visma train to the top of the mountain before calling it quits.

After that, Roglic and Pogacar went on to fight for the stage win.

I do not recall Kuss doing much against Ineos? Only towards the end of the TdF Kuss did something, but that was totally ineffective as Roglic was unable to put time onto Pogacar.

Didn’t Bernal leave the Tour because he was carrying a fairly serious injury?

Bernal left due to having 0% chance of winning the TdF as his fitness was not good enough to keep up with the Jumbo-Visma train. It was pointless for Bernal to continue. The pain in his back which he had for a long time now, did not stop Bernal for entering the TdF as the lead-GC. So that was not the reason.

Also in a previous stage when Bernal got dropped, Bernal was producing his personal best power numbers ever and admitted that the guys in front are simply alot stronger than him.

ugo.santalucia

phreak said:

ugo.santalucia said:

neonriver said:

ugo.santalucia said:

arnuf said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I think too there is something fishy and normally in cycling that means doping

I don't see what makes this fishy. He has quit a lot things (races, teams, seasons) the last two or three years so this decision is pretty much in line with that.

I'm always a bit suspicious of riders going from hero to zero (or the other way round) in the space of a season... it's the same trajectory as Fabio Aru... to me there is only one plausible explanation... and involves the availability (or the lack of) a particularly effective pharmaceutical practice.

I do appreciate having a bad season, but here is different... we are talking about the number one (or two) in GT races, being unable to even finish a Grand Tour...

He was 7th in the tour hardly hero to zero

Up to 2016, he was a fast time triallist, like Tony Martin... in 2017-2018 he basically was the number 1 (or 2) in Grand Tours, then in 2019 and 2020 he DNF 2 of them and finished 7th in the Tour, 8 minutes behind the winner and courtesy of being part of by far the strongest team in the race... had he been in a different team, he wouldn't have made the top 20.

Bottom line, he goes from zero to hero and back to zero...

AND, as I said, I never quite believed what he did up Oropa was genuine... he did beat Zakarin, Quintana, Landa, Pinot, Yates and Nibali.
He did remind me a lot of Berzin for some reason...

Weren't the likes of Quintana about 90 seconds slower than Pantani's famous ascent of the climb in 1999? When you think the whole climb is just 17/18 minutes that's a pretty hefty gap. When Quintana won on the climb in 2014 he was about 10 seconds slower than Moreno Argentin's time from 1993, and lets be honest, Argentin was certainly not a climber.

I don't even know if 1993 they were using the same ascent (at Favaro there is a fork, you can go left, longer and shallower, or right shorter and steeper, then they re-join about 4 km to the top). Certainly in 1993 they were using a different type of fuel...
Comparing times in different years is never black and white... it also depends when they started putting the foot down on the gas... these times are never official either, I wouldn't go there. The fact is that on the day he put behind a number of top climbers, which would be acceptable, was it not that there are two sections at > 10% and by my own extensive experience, it is a far harder climb than the average numbers say. It is not and it has never been one for a time triallist.


As you mention 1993, ask Indurain what he thinks about Oropa...

blazing_saddles

zest28 said:

roscoe said:

zest28 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

zest28 said:

ugo.santalucia said:

neonriver said:

ugo.santalucia said:

arnuf said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I think too there is something fishy and normally in cycling that means doping

I don't see what makes this fishy. He has quit a lot things (races, teams, seasons) the last two or three years so this decision is pretty much in line with that.

I'm always a bit suspicious of riders going from hero to zero (or the other way round) in the space of a season... it's the same trajectory as Fabio Aru... to me there is only one plausible explanation... and involves the availability (or the lack of) a particularly effective pharmaceutical practice.

I do appreciate having a bad season, but here is different... we are talking about the number one (or two) in GT races, being unable to even finish a Grand Tour...

He was 7th in the tour hardly hero to zero

Up to 2016, he was a fast time triallist, like Tony Martin... in 2017-2018 he basically was the number 1 (or 2) in Grand Tours, then in 2019 and 2020 he DNF 2 of them and finished 7th in the Tour, 8 minutes behind the winner and courtesy of being part of by far the strongest team in the race... had he been in a different team, he wouldn't have made the top 20.

Bottom line, he goes from zero to hero and back to zero...

AND, as I said, I never quite believed what he did up Oropa was genuine... he did beat Zakarin, Quintana, Landa, Pinot, Yates and Nibali.
He did remind me a lot of Berzin for some reason...

What are you smoking? Tom Dumoulin was together with Wout Van Aerts the reason why Team Ineos got destroyed in the Tour De France.

Guys like Bernal got smoked after Van Aerts passed the ball to Tom Dumoulin to time-trail the Jumbo-Visma train up the mountains. Only guys like Pogacar and Porte were able to hang on to the Jumbo-Visma train.

If you call Tom Dumoulin a zero, who was one of the strongest riders in the Tour De France last year, then what is everybody else then?

Tom Dumoulin will be missed by Jumbo-Visma, he was not a zero like you claim him to be.

I don't recall Dumoulin managing more than about 500m on the front after WvA, before he blew himself.
It was WvA and Sepp Kuss who dragged Roglic around France, not Tom D.

Check the stage where Bernal got knocked out of the TdF. First Van Aerts did a huge effort and then Van Aerts called it quits and dropped back to Bernal. And then Tom Dumoulin TT the entire Jumbo-Visma train to the top of the mountain before calling it quits.

After that, Roglic and Pogacar went on to fight for the stage win.

I do not recall Kuss doing much against Ineos? Only towards the end of the TdF Kuss did something, but that was totally ineffective as Roglic was unable to put time onto Pogacar.

Didn’t Bernal leave the Tour because he was carrying a fairly serious injury?

Bernal left due to having 0% chance of winning the TdF as his fitness was not good enough to keep up with the Jumbo-Visma train. It was pointless for Bernal to continue. The pain in his back which he had for a long time now, did not stop Bernal for entering the TdF as the lead-GC. So that was not the reason.

Also in a previous stage when Bernal got dropped, Bernal was producing his personal best power numbers ever and admitted that the guys in front are simply alot stronger than him.

Maybe you should consider reading the drivel you post.

rick_chasey

I thought there were rumours for a while he was just tired of the level of commitment and suffering required to be at the top level day in day out.

He clearly has interests beyond cycling.

ugo.santalucia

rick_chasey said:

I thought there were rumours for a while he was just tired of the level of commitment and suffering required to be at the top level day in day out.

He clearly has interests beyond cycling.

Fair enough... if he thinks he doesn't have enough in him to win the Tour and he has a viable plan B, then retiring makes sense.

gweeds

zest28 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

zest28 said:

ugo.santalucia said:

neonriver said:

ugo.santalucia said:

arnuf said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I think too there is something fishy and normally in cycling that means doping

I don't see what makes this fishy. He has quit a lot things (races, teams, seasons) the last two or three years so this decision is pretty much in line with that.

I'm always a bit suspicious of riders going from hero to zero (or the other way round) in the space of a season... it's the same trajectory as Fabio Aru... to me there is only one plausible explanation... and involves the availability (or the lack of) a particularly effective pharmaceutical practice.

I do appreciate having a bad season, but here is different... we are talking about the number one (or two) in GT races, being unable to even finish a Grand Tour...

He was 7th in the tour hardly hero to zero

Up to 2016, he was a fast time triallist, like Tony Martin... in 2017-2018 he basically was the number 1 (or 2) in Grand Tours, then in 2019 and 2020 he DNF 2 of them and finished 7th in the Tour, 8 minutes behind the winner and courtesy of being part of by far the strongest team in the race... had he been in a different team, he wouldn't have made the top 20.

Bottom line, he goes from zero to hero and back to zero...

AND, as I said, I never quite believed what he did up Oropa was genuine... he did beat Zakarin, Quintana, Landa, Pinot, Yates and Nibali.
He did remind me a lot of Berzin for some reason...

What are you smoking? Tom Dumoulin was together with Wout Van Aerts the reason why Team Ineos got destroyed in the Tour De France.

Guys like Bernal got smoked after Van Aerts passed the ball to Tom Dumoulin to time-trail the Jumbo-Visma train up the mountains. Only guys like Pogacar and Porte were able to hang on to the Jumbo-Visma train.

If you call Tom Dumoulin a zero, who was one of the strongest riders in the Tour De France last year, then what is everybody else then?

Tom Dumoulin will be missed by Jumbo-Visma, he was not a zero like you claim him to be.

I don't recall Dumoulin managing more than about 500m on the front after WvA, before he blew himself.
It was WvA and Sepp Kuss who dragged Roglic around France, not Tom D.

Check the stage where Bernal got knocked out of the TdF. First Van Aerts did a huge effort and then Van Aerts called it quits and dropped back to Bernal. And then Tom Dumoulin TT the entire Jumbo-Visma train to the top of the mountain before calling it quits.

After that, Roglic and Pogacar went on to fight for the stage win.

I do not recall Kuss doing much against Ineos? Only towards the end of the TdF Kuss did something, but that was totally ineffective as Roglic was unable to put time onto Pogacar.

It's van Aert. At least get the name right.

If you don't think Kuss did much you need to watch it again.

pblakeney

gweeds said:

zest28 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

zest28 said:

ugo.santalucia said:

neonriver said:

ugo.santalucia said:

arnuf said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I think too there is something fishy and normally in cycling that means doping

I don't see what makes this fishy. He has quit a lot things (races, teams, seasons) the last two or three years so this decision is pretty much in line with that.

I'm always a bit suspicious of riders going from hero to zero (or the other way round) in the space of a season... it's the same trajectory as Fabio Aru... to me there is only one plausible explanation... and involves the availability (or the lack of) a particularly effective pharmaceutical practice.

I do appreciate having a bad season, but here is different... we are talking about the number one (or two) in GT races, being unable to even finish a Grand Tour...

He was 7th in the tour hardly hero to zero

Up to 2016, he was a fast time triallist, like Tony Martin... in 2017-2018 he basically was the number 1 (or 2) in Grand Tours, then in 2019 and 2020 he DNF 2 of them and finished 7th in the Tour, 8 minutes behind the winner and courtesy of being part of by far the strongest team in the race... had he been in a different team, he wouldn't have made the top 20.

Bottom line, he goes from zero to hero and back to zero...

AND, as I said, I never quite believed what he did up Oropa was genuine... he did beat Zakarin, Quintana, Landa, Pinot, Yates and Nibali.
He did remind me a lot of Berzin for some reason...

What are you smoking? Tom Dumoulin was together with Wout Van Aerts the reason why Team Ineos got destroyed in the Tour De France.

Guys like Bernal got smoked after Van Aerts passed the ball to Tom Dumoulin to time-trail the Jumbo-Visma train up the mountains. Only guys like Pogacar and Porte were able to hang on to the Jumbo-Visma train.

If you call Tom Dumoulin a zero, who was one of the strongest riders in the Tour De France last year, then what is everybody else then?

Tom Dumoulin will be missed by Jumbo-Visma, he was not a zero like you claim him to be.

I don't recall Dumoulin managing more than about 500m on the front after WvA, before he blew himself.
It was WvA and Sepp Kuss who dragged Roglic around France, not Tom D.

Check the stage where Bernal got knocked out of the TdF. First Van Aerts did a huge effort and then Van Aerts called it quits and dropped back to Bernal. And then Tom Dumoulin TT the entire Jumbo-Visma train to the top of the mountain before calling it quits.

After that, Roglic and Pogacar went on to fight for the stage win.

I do not recall Kuss doing much against Ineos? Only towards the end of the TdF Kuss did something, but that was totally ineffective as Roglic was unable to put time onto Pogacar.

It's van Aert. At least get the name right.

If you don't think Kuss did much you need to watch it again.

Consider your opposition before engaging. 😉

zest28

blazing_saddles said:

zest28 said:

roscoe said:

zest28 said:

Dorset_Boy said:

zest28 said:

ugo.santalucia said:

neonriver said:

ugo.santalucia said:

arnuf said:

ugo.santalucia said:

I think too there is something fishy and normally in cycling that means doping

I don't see what makes this fishy. He has quit a lot things (races, teams, seasons) the last two or three years so this decision is pretty much in line with that.

I'm always a bit suspicious of riders going from hero to zero (or the other way round) in the space of a season... it's the same trajectory as Fabio Aru... to me there is only one plausible explanation... and involves the availability (or the lack of) a particularly effective pharmaceutical practice.

I do appreciate having a bad season, but here is different... we are talking about the number one (or two) in GT races, being unable to even finish a Grand Tour...

He was 7th in the tour hardly hero to zero

Up to 2016, he was a fast time triallist, like Tony Martin... in 2017-2018 he basically was the number 1 (or 2) in Grand Tours, then in 2019 and 2020 he DNF 2 of them and finished 7th in the Tour, 8 minutes behind the winner and courtesy of being part of by far the strongest team in the race... had he been in a different team, he wouldn't have made the top 20.

Bottom line, he goes from zero to hero and back to zero...

AND, as I said, I never quite believed what he did up Oropa was genuine... he did beat Zakarin, Quintana, Landa, Pinot, Yates and Nibali.
He did remind me a lot of Berzin for some reason...

What are you smoking? Tom Dumoulin was together with Wout Van Aerts the reason why Team Ineos got destroyed in the Tour De France.

Guys like Bernal got smoked after Van Aerts passed the ball to Tom Dumoulin to time-trail the Jumbo-Visma train up the mountains. Only guys like Pogacar and Porte were able to hang on to the Jumbo-Visma train.

If you call Tom Dumoulin a zero, who was one of the strongest riders in the Tour De France last year, then what is everybody else then?

Tom Dumoulin will be missed by Jumbo-Visma, he was not a zero like you claim him to be.

I don't recall Dumoulin managing more than about 500m on the front after WvA, before he blew himself.
It was WvA and Sepp Kuss who dragged Roglic around France, not Tom D.

Check the stage where Bernal got knocked out of the TdF. First Van Aerts did a huge effort and then Van Aerts called it quits and dropped back to Bernal. And then Tom Dumoulin TT the entire Jumbo-Visma train to the top of the mountain before calling it quits.

After that, Roglic and Pogacar went on to fight for the stage win.

I do not recall Kuss doing much against Ineos? Only towards the end of the TdF Kuss did something, but that was totally ineffective as Roglic was unable to put time onto Pogacar.

Didn’t Bernal leave the Tour because he was carrying a fairly serious injury?

Bernal left due to having 0% chance of winning the TdF as his fitness was not good enough to keep up with the Jumbo-Visma train. It was pointless for Bernal to continue. The pain in his back which he had for a long time now, did not stop Bernal for entering the TdF as the lead-GC. So that was not the reason.

Also in a previous stage when Bernal got dropped, Bernal was producing his personal best power numbers ever and admitted that the guys in front are simply alot stronger than him.

Maybe you should consider reading the drivel you post.

Maybe you should consider watching the races and listen what Bernal also has said.

Bernal has said it himself that he has produced his best power numbers ever while getting dropped. And Bernal also admitted that the other guys are simply much stronger than him.

RichN95.

Dumoulin's original ambition was to become a doctor, not a cyclist. He's in the sport by mistake.

gweeds

https://www.velonews.com/news/road/wout-van-aert-marcel-kittel-extend-support-to-tom-dumoulin-after-call-to-take-career-break/

Not a new thing to the team. I doubt very much this is a doping issue.

ugo.santalucia

RichN95. said:

Dumoulin's original ambition was to become a doctor, not a cyclist. He's in the sport by mistake.

Good for him... how far is he in his studies? You don't really want to start Medical school at 31...

ddraver

...why?

RichN95.

ugo.santalucia said:

RichN95. said:

Dumoulin's original ambition was to become a doctor, not a cyclist. He's in the sport by mistake.

Good for him... how far is he in his studies? You don't really want to start Medical school at 31...

He didn't study it. There are too many applications (three for every place) for Dutch medical schools and he didn't make the cut back after he left school. He studied Health Sciences instead but dropped out.

ugo.santalucia

ddraver said:

...why?

By the time you are fully qualified and trained you'll be in your forties. Things you can live with in your twenties are less acceptable when you have family, kids and whatnot...
I'm not against retraining, but some careers are best started early... barrister/judge, medical doctor etc...

ddraver

such things are easier with a few mill' in the bank...

(should he want to...)

ugo.santalucia

ddraver said:

such things are easier with a few mill' in the bank...

(should he want to...)

Some things are easier, others are harder... finding motivation to spend hours on the books when you have already made your money is harder.

exlaser

Sorry I have my tin foil firmly on and think this is all smoke and mirrors. Something else well come out, but time will tell 😀

zest28

ugo.santalucia said:

ddraver said:

such things are easier with a few mill' in the bank...

(should he want to...)

Some things are easier, others are harder... finding motivation to spend hours on the books when you have already made your money is harder.

Tell that to super rich people like Steven Spielberg, Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Shaquille O’Neil, and so on ....

If Tom wants to be a doctor and he really wants it, he can easily do it.

ugo.santalucia

zest28 said:

ugo.santalucia said:

ddraver said:

such things are easier with a few mill' in the bank...

(should he want to...)

Some things are easier, others are harder... finding motivation to spend hours on the books when you have already made your money is harder.

Tell that to super rich people like Steven Spielberg, Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Shaquille O’Neil, and so on ....

If Tom wants to be a doctor and he really wants it, he can easily do it.

Google informs me that Michael Jordan got a degree in geography, what's that to do with medical school?
I'm not saying Geography is a Mickey Mouse degree, but there is some difference between a 3 year degree course and one that all in lasts about 10 years.

Besides, if Dumoulin didn't make the cut for medicine 10 years ago, what are his chances now that he has forgotten all the maths, chemistry, physics and biology curriculum?

RichN95.

My original point was if Dumoulin had got into medical school it is unlikely that he would have been a pro cyclist. It's unlikely to still be an ambition.

roscoe

Bernal left due to having 0% chance of winning the TdF as his fitness was not good enough to keep up with the Jumbo-Visma train. It was pointless for Bernal to continue. The pain in his back which he had for a long time now, did not stop Bernal for entering the TdF as the lead-GC. So that was not the reason.

Also in a previous stage when Bernal got dropped, Bernal was producing his personal best power numbers ever and admitted that the guys in front are simply alot stronger than him.

Maybe you should consider reading the drivel you post.



Maybe you should consider watching the races and listen what Bernal also has said.

Bernal has said it himself that he has produced his best power numbers ever while getting dropped. And Bernal also admitted that the other guys are simply much stronger than him.


The same Bernal that injured his back before the stour and admitted as much. The same Bernal that has since been diagnosed with a physical imbalance that has caused the issue? The guy was injured! Lots of riders start races hoping to ride into form or recover from an injury.

rick_chasey

RichN95. said:

My original point was if Dumoulin had got into medical school it is unlikely that he would have been a pro cyclist. It's unlikely to still be an ambition.

My point is, and I don't mean this in a snobby way but more of a factual way, the best riders are usually fairly simple; they usually like training and cycling is more or less their entire horizon.

You get the impression it really isn't for Tom and he does not enjoy the training much and only really the racing when it goes well (which is hard to do).

davidof

RichN95. said:

Last year I saw a documentary about the DJ Avicii and it was a portrait of the mental degradation of someone with too much heaped on his shoulders. The documentary ended with a happy ending as he quit music, but of course he tragically got drawn back in afterwards

Yeah, it's a long road to hell without no soul

davidof

ugo.santalucia said:

ddraver said:

...why?

I'm not against retraining, but some careers are best started early... barrister

How hard is it to make an espresso?

A friend of mine trained to be a doctor in his 30s, best thing he ever did. He's now a locum in Cornwall and surfs regularly when he's not working.

Pross

roscoe said:

Bernal left due to having 0% chance of winning the TdF as his fitness was not good enough to keep up with the Jumbo-Visma train. It was pointless for Bernal to continue. The pain in his back which he had for a long time now, did not stop Bernal for entering the TdF as the lead-GC. So that was not the reason.

Also in a previous stage when Bernal got dropped, Bernal was producing his personal best power numbers ever and admitted that the guys in front are simply alot stronger than him.

Maybe you should consider reading the drivel you post.



Maybe you should consider watching the races and listen what Bernal also has said.

Bernal has said it himself that he has produced his best power numbers ever while getting dropped. And Bernal also admitted that the other guys are simply much stronger than him.


The same Bernal that injured his back before the stour and admitted as much. The same Bernal that has since been diagnosed with a physical imbalance that has caused the issue? The guy was injured! Lots of riders start races hoping to ride into form or recover from an injury.


Pointless arguing with someone who doesn't see a contradiction in stating in the same post that a rider was unfit whilst also saying they produced their best ever power figures. I'm awaiting the Bike Radar article 'Boost Your FTP By Losing Fitness'. I should be around 500 watts at the moment.

ddraver

davidof said:

How hard is it to make an espresso?

Properly?

Very!

rick_chasey

ddraver said:

davidof said:

How hard is it to make an espresso?

Properly?

Very!

Yeah. Half of the problem are people with no taste trying to do something 'new' with coffee.

Stick to what is nice rather than novel. There's a reason you want your coffee to be naturally coffee like and sweet, and not sour and acrid.

ugo.santalucia

A barista, which is not a barrister, in a busy bar in Milan can churn out almost a thousand espresso a day... which is one every 30 seconds or so. Over here, most so called baristas take almost 5 minutes to produce one... and that's the difference, in a nutshell... here cafes are overstaffed and therefore they have to pay them little, whereas someone who can do a coffee in 30 seconds is an asset and you might want to keep him/her.