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  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,663

    elbowloh said:

    It’s just snobbery if you think darts isn’t a sport.

    Its not. I also think Ice dance isn't a sport and that's hardly a working man's activity.
    I would argue that anything that involves a subjective decision to decide the winner is not sport
    Which I guess lends itself to lots of sub-categories.

    Actual sports divided into games (football) or races (running)
    Judged sports
    Sedentary sports

    Where does esports fit for the darts is a sport brigade?

    Wrestling used to be shown on WOS. That’s athletic theatre.
  • morstar said:

    elbowloh said:

    It’s just snobbery if you think darts isn’t a sport.

    Its not. I also think Ice dance isn't a sport and that's hardly a working man's activity.
    I would argue that anything that involves a subjective decision to decide the winner is not sport
    Which I guess lends itself to lots of sub-categories.

    Actual sports divided into games (football) or races (running)
    Judged sports
    Sedentary sports

    Where does esports fit for the darts is a sport brigade?

    Wrestling used to be shown on WOS. That’s athletic theatre.
    Another category would be where equipment plays a pivotal role.
  • elbowloh said:

    It’s just snobbery if you think darts isn’t a sport.

    Its not. I also think Ice dance isn't a sport and that's hardly a working man's activity.
    I would argue that anything that involves a subjective decision to decide the winner is not sport
    That would apply to football, rugby, hockey, etc and the decisions on fair play or fouls is subjective.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,381 Lives Here
    Has anyone actually given the case for darts not being a sport?

    Beyond lack of exertion which is not convincing.

    Darts requires vast amounts of physical skill to be good. It is a competition, that people follow, and has a bunch of professionals who compete with each other for tournaments?

    How could it not be a sport?
  • elbowloh said:

    It’s just snobbery if you think darts isn’t a sport.

    Its not. I also think Ice dance isn't a sport and that's hardly a working man's activity.
    I would argue that anything that involves a subjective decision to decide the winner is not sport
    That would apply to football, rugby, hockey, etc and the decisions on fair play or fouls is subjective.
    Style marks then. The Olympic ideal is currently highest, farthest, strongest, prettiest.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,381 Lives Here
    Not a lot of love for gymnastics or ski jumping? Jury sport is quite well recognised.

    I guess this is what happens in a post-modern world. People don’t even trust juries with very clear criteria.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 7,078

    Has anyone actually given the case for darts not being a sport?

    Beyond lack of exertion which is not convincing.

    Darts requires vast amounts of physical skill to be good. It is a competition, that people follow, and has a bunch of professionals who compete with each other for tournaments?

    How could it not be a sport?

    Ballroom dancing meets the above criteria.
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  • Not a lot of love for gymnastics or ski jumping? Jury sport is quite well recognised.

    I guess this is what happens in a post-modern world. People don’t even trust juries with very clear criteria.

    Why does ski jumping need style marks? Why isn't it just longest?

    Add to that the half pipe, synchronised swimming etc. No, they are athletic endeavours, but are no different from cheer leading, circus acrobatics etc etc. and they aren't really sports imo.

    How would you feel about Chris Froome being docked 30 seconds for looking like an insect on his bike. Or promoting Bertie Condator for his exquisite out of the saddle style? Not exactly an improvement is it.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,381 Lives Here
    edited December 2020

    Not a lot of love for gymnastics or ski jumping? Jury sport is quite well recognised.

    I guess this is what happens in a post-modern world. People don’t even trust juries with very clear criteria.

    Why does ski jumping need style marks? Why isn't it just longest?

    Add to that the half pipe, synchronised swimming etc. No, they are athletic endeavours, but are no different from cheer leading, circus acrobatics etc etc. and they aren't really sports imo.

    How would you feel about Chris Froome being docked 30 seconds for looking like an insect on his bike. Or promoting Bertie Condator for his exquisite out of the saddle style? Not exactly an improvement is it.
    Should spend more time in pro race as I would love that. 😂😂

    Why else do you think the UCI legislates on maximum sock length?

    Anyway darts isn’t even a jury sport.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,381 Lives Here
    elbowloh said:

    Has anyone actually given the case for darts not being a sport?

    Beyond lack of exertion which is not convincing.

    Darts requires vast amounts of physical skill to be good. It is a competition, that people follow, and has a bunch of professionals who compete with each other for tournaments?

    How could it not be a sport?

    Ballroom dancing meets the above criteria.
    Are you saying this because you think competitive ballroom dancing is not a sport?

    I think it is tbh.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,663

    Has anyone actually given the case for darts not being a sport?

    Beyond lack of exertion which is not convincing.

    Darts requires vast amounts of physical skill to be good. It is a competition, that people follow, and has a bunch of professionals who compete with each other for tournaments?

    How could it not be a sport?

    This is clearly why it is a topic of debate (despite your personal belief you had the final decree).

    Personally the bit in bold to me is why it isn't a sport. And for fear of repeating myself, that in no way reduces the amount of skill or practice required to be good. It simply isn't a sport imho as there is no significant physical exertion.

    I have found definitions that both include and exclude the exertion criteria from the definition of a sport. Here is the first search result from google.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sport

    a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job:


    I am not sure why you just dismiss the lack of exertion argument. To me that is what differentiates sports from non-sports. A game can be both a sport and a game (football) but a game is not by definition a sport (See Bridge or monopoly). Is table skittles a sport?

    But it is clearly a grey area and a much debated one. Happy to agree to disagree unless somebody thinks they have the definitive answer or just wants to accuse others of snobbery.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,381 Lives Here
    edited December 2020
    Oh relax what I say is obviously my opinion.

    If golf is a sport which is consensus then darts is.

    Shooting is an Olympic sport and so is archery. They’re as exerting.
  • Oh relax what I say is obviously my opinion.

    If golf is a sport which is consensus then darts is.

    Shooting is an Olympic sport and so is archery. They’re as exerting.

    Golf requires strength and skill. Fitness not so much.

    Darts requires skill only. It is as much a sport as origami.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 7,078

    elbowloh said:

    Has anyone actually given the case for darts not being a sport?

    Beyond lack of exertion which is not convincing.

    Darts requires vast amounts of physical skill to be good. It is a competition, that people follow, and has a bunch of professionals who compete with each other for tournaments?

    How could it not be a sport?

    Ballroom dancing meets the above criteria.
    Are you saying this because you think competitive ballroom dancing is not a sport?

    I think it is tbh.
    Its not an Olympic Sport
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  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 4,360

    Oh relax what I say is obviously my opinion.

    If golf is a sport which is consensus then darts is.

    Shooting is an Olympic sport and so is archery. They’re as exerting.

    Golf requires strength and skill. Fitness not so much.

    Darts requires skill only. It is as much a sport as origami.
    At least golf requires a level of fitness to walk 5 miles or so in a round.

    Darts is a bar game, not a sport.
    Likewise snooker, and skittles.

    It may be highly skilled and require a lot of practice to reach the top levels, and may have professionals, but is no more a sport than many egames.

    Still, certain posters like to put their own opinions forward as the definitive ruling, on many, many subjects. Perhaps reading how their posts sound before hitting the submit button might help.
  • morstar said:

    Has anyone actually given the case for darts not being a sport?

    Beyond lack of exertion which is not convincing.

    Darts requires vast amounts of physical skill to be good. It is a competition, that people follow, and has a bunch of professionals who compete with each other for tournaments?

    How could it not be a sport?

    This is clearly why it is a topic of debate (despite your personal belief you had the final decree).

    Personally the bit in bold to me is why it isn't a sport. And for fear of repeating myself, that in no way reduces the amount of skill or practice required to be good. It simply isn't a sport imho as there is no significant physical exertion.

    I have found definitions that both include and exclude the exertion criteria from the definition of a sport. Here is the first search result from google.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sport

    a game, competition, or activity needing physical effort and skill that is played or done according to rules, for enjoyment and/or as a job:


    I am not sure why you just dismiss the lack of exertion argument. To me that is what differentiates sports from non-sports. A game can be both a sport and a game (football) but a game is not by definition a sport (See Bridge or monopoly). Is table skittles a sport?

    But it is clearly a grey area and a much debated one. Happy to agree to disagree unless somebody thinks they have the definitive answer or just wants to accuse others of snobbery.
    But then you need a definition of physical effort as I would argue that if you were hopelessly weak you would not have the control to throw the dart consistently for a prolonged period of time
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,381 Lives Here
    elbowloh said:

    elbowloh said:

    Has anyone actually given the case for darts not being a sport?

    Beyond lack of exertion which is not convincing.

    Darts requires vast amounts of physical skill to be good. It is a competition, that people follow, and has a bunch of professionals who compete with each other for tournaments?

    How could it not be a sport?

    Ballroom dancing meets the above criteria.
    Are you saying this because you think competitive ballroom dancing is not a sport?

    I think it is tbh.
    Its not an Olympic Sport
    No. Neither is CX
  • Oh relax what I say is obviously my opinion.

    If golf is a sport which is consensus then darts is.

    Shooting is an Olympic sport and so is archery. They’re as exerting.

    Golf requires strength and skill. Fitness not so much.

    Darts requires skill only. It is as much a sport as origami.
    At least golf requires a level of fitness to walk 5 miles or so in a round.

    Darts is a bar game, not a sport.
    Likewise snooker, and skittles.

    It may be highly skilled and require a lot of practice to reach the top levels, and may have professionals, but is no more a sport than many egames.

    Still, certain posters like to put their own opinions forward as the definitive ruling, on many, many subjects. Perhaps reading how their posts sound before hitting the submit button might help.

    Just ignore the style and concentrate on the content
  • Oh relax what I say is obviously my opinion.

    If golf is a sport which is consensus then darts is.

    Shooting is an Olympic sport and so is archery. They’re as exerting.

    Golf requires strength and skill. Fitness not so much.

    Darts requires skill only. It is as much a sport as origami.
    There speaks a man who has never entered a darts tournament (I’ll warrant). Trust me when I say there is both mental and physical exertion. I grant you there is nothing approaching the level of exertion required to win a cycle race (at whatever level), but there certainly is some. After a day on the board I’m well and truly knackered. Just like riding a bicycle, there are many levels, you can pootle around on your cycle at 5-8mph all day long without thought but it isn’t going to win you any races. Likewise the odd game ‘o darts down the local (whatever happened to the local?) isn’t going to win you the world championship, just saying. A bit o luck never goes amiss either

    Thank goodness beer has calories in it :D

  • Play darts for a couple of hours and believe me, your arm will be aching by the end so there's a degree of physical exertion although I accept not as much as in most other sports.

    No wonder so many players like Eric Bristow and Mark Webster end up with repetitive strain injuries from playing darts.

    I'm still not sure why it's so important for darts to be classed as a sport or not, either way IMO darts is great.
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 7,078
    TBF, you can get rsi from using a mouse.
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  • webboowebboo Posts: 3,843
    If you get arm ache from a game a darts I wonder if you can manage a [email protected] Good god this is a cycling forum where you would expect at least a degree of of physical fitness.
    Do you need assistance to get out of bed, get dressed or wipe your [email protected]
    Darts is no more of sport than Chess.
  • elbowloh said:

    TBF, you can get rsi from using a mouse.

    oooooh Matron! I didn't think it was that sort of forum
  • seanoconnseanoconn Posts: 8,234
    Does darts need to be labelled as a sport? It’s competitive entertainment. The competitors spend as much time training as most ‘sportsmen’ and deserve no less respect for it.

    I would be interested to know if there was any drug testing in darts? I don’t remember hearing of a failed test. Performance enhancing drugs, beta blockers, coke (massive confidence boost) muscle relaxants etc must be a massive advantage where millimetres and total control over your body and mind means the difference between winning and losing. And we’re talking 6 figures sums in prize money here.
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 14,071

    Not a lot of love for gymnastics or ski jumping? Jury sport is quite well recognised.

    I guess this is what happens in a post-modern world. People don’t even trust juries with very clear criteria.

    Why does ski jumping need style marks? Why isn't it just longest?

    Add to that the half pipe, synchronised swimming etc. No, they are athletic endeavours, but are no different from cheer leading, circus acrobatics etc etc. and they aren't really sports imo.

    How would you feel about Chris Froome being docked 30 seconds for looking like an insect on his bike. Or promoting Bertie Condator for his exquisite out of the saddle style? Not exactly an improvement is it.
    Ski jumping needs style marks because the way to jump the furthest is to crash. So broadly speaking in ski jumping, if you crash you get very few points, if you two foot the landing* you lose some points and everything else is noise. It's therefore wrong to really consider it a jury sport as it is distance that nearly always wins.

    Separately, of all the sports I saw at the Olympics, I think ice dancing just edged the moguls for my complete inability to spot a good performance verus a bad one. This annoyed me as I thought I really should have some idea with the moguls.

    *this only happens when someone does a massive jump and they are landing on the flatter, more dangerous bit of the hill. They therefore get lots of compensating distance points.
  • Not a lot of love for gymnastics or ski jumping? Jury sport is quite well recognised.

    I guess this is what happens in a post-modern world. People don’t even trust juries with very clear criteria.

    Why does ski jumping need style marks? Why isn't it just longest?

    Add to that the half pipe, synchronised swimming etc. No, they are athletic endeavours, but are no different from cheer leading, circus acrobatics etc etc. and they aren't really sports imo.

    How would you feel about Chris Froome being docked 30 seconds for looking like an insect on his bike. Or promoting Bertie Condator for his exquisite out of the saddle style? Not exactly an improvement is it.
    Ski jumping needs style marks because the way to jump the furthest is to crash. So broadly speaking in ski jumping, if you crash you get very few points, if you two foot the landing* you lose some points and everything else is noise. It's therefore wrong to really consider it a jury sport as it is distance that nearly always wins.

    Separately, of all the sports I saw at the Olympics, I think ice dancing just edged the moguls for my complete inability to spot a good performance verus a bad one. This annoyed me as I thought I really should have some idea with the moguls.

    *this only happens when someone does a massive jump and they are landing on the flatter, more dangerous bit of the hill. They therefore get lots of compensating distance points.
    I know this, but there are obvious ways around it. And since the jump as far as they can anyway...

    Boxing is one where it is hard to tell who won without seeing the judge's bank statement.
  • mrb123mrb123 Posts: 3,424

    Not a lot of love for gymnastics or ski jumping? Jury sport is quite well recognised.

    I guess this is what happens in a post-modern world. People don’t even trust juries with very clear criteria.

    Why does ski jumping need style marks? Why isn't it just longest?

    Add to that the half pipe, synchronised swimming etc. No, they are athletic endeavours, but are no different from cheer leading, circus acrobatics etc etc. and they aren't really sports imo.

    How would you feel about Chris Froome being docked 30 seconds for looking like an insect on his bike. Or promoting Bertie Condator for his exquisite out of the saddle style? Not exactly an improvement is it.
    Ski jumping needs style marks because the way to jump the furthest is to crash. So broadly speaking in ski jumping, if you crash you get very few points, if you two foot the landing* you lose some points and everything else is noise. It's therefore wrong to really consider it a jury sport as it is distance that nearly always wins.

    Separately, of all the sports I saw at the Olympics, I think ice dancing just edged the moguls for my complete inability to spot a good performance verus a bad one. This annoyed me as I thought I really should have some idea with the moguls.

    *this only happens when someone does a massive jump and they are landing on the flatter, more dangerous bit of the hill. They therefore get lots of compensating distance points.
    I know this, but there are obvious ways around it. And since the jump as far as they can anyway...

    Boxing is one where it is hard to tell who won without seeing the judge's bank statement.
    The amateur boxing scoring system does have some merit - at least it's immediately clear who is winning and what the judges are up to.
  • For those who like posh c.unts on boats.

    Probably one for @Wheelspinner but America's Cup opening trial races start Thursday.

    It's in New Zealand so coverage starts 2am on Thurs morning in the UK.

    https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCo15ZYO_XDRU9LI30OPtxAg

    Apparently UK attempt may be a bit poor as apparently the boat won't go up on the foils in less than 12kts of wind. Facepalm. Bankrolled by everyone's favourite brexiteer, Ineos

    Nah not me. Never been a fan.
    Open O-1.0 Open One+ BMC TE29 Titus Racer X Ti Giant MCM One Cannondale Prophet Lefty Cannondale Super V SL Cove Handjob Cervelo RS
  • And I quote!

    Eric Bristow was awarded the MBE in 1989 for his services to sport.
  • webboo said:

    If you get arm ache from a game a darts I wonder if you can manage a [email protected] Good god this is a cycling forum where you would expect at least a degree of of physical fitness.
    Do you need assistance to get out of bed, get dressed or wipe your [email protected]
    Darts is no more of sport than Chess.

    Chill dude, maybe go have a [email protected] to calm down
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