Giro 2020 - Stage 18: Pinzolo – Laghi di Cancano 207 km *Spoilers*

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Comments

  • curium99
    curium99 Posts: 20
    pblakeney said:

    Kelderman...
    2. He couldn't zip up a jacket. Neither could Hindley.

    I’m surprised more hasn’t been made of the jackets the Sunweb riders used compared to the ones Ineos riders used. Wilco decided he was better off without it after a while!

    Anyone know what the brands/models are?
  • Matti66
    Matti66 Posts: 190
    I thought Wilco Kelderman looked cold / tired on the podium . I know nothing but the inability to get his jacket on was a sign of some on their limit. And I imagine TGH would have got up that last climb much faster on his own.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Quest reception was terrible yesterday and S4C didn't show it. What a stage to miss!
  • thejimmymethod
    thejimmymethod Posts: 458
    curium99 said:

    pblakeney said:

    Kelderman...
    2. He couldn't zip up a jacket. Neither could Hindley.

    I’m surprised more hasn’t been made of the jackets the Sunweb riders used compared to the ones Ineos riders used. Wilco decided he was better off without it after a while!

    Anyone know what the brands/models are?
    Castelli for Ineos vs Craft for Sunweb
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,823
    thejimmymethod said:

    curium99 said:

    pblakeney said:

    Kelderman...
    2. He couldn't zip up a jacket. Neither could Hindley.

    I’m surprised more hasn’t been made of the jackets the Sunweb riders used compared to the ones Ineos riders used. Wilco decided he was better off without it after a while!

    Anyone know what the brands/models are?
    Castelli for Ineos vs Craft for Sunweb
    Jai Hindley had the one provided to the White Jersey wearer by the Giro, so that will have been a different brand to Wilcoman
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,490
    edited October 2020
    curium99 said:

    pblakeney said:

    Kelderman...
    2. He couldn't zip up a jacket. Neither could Hindley.

    I’m surprised more hasn’t been made of the jackets the Sunweb riders used compared to the ones Ineos riders used. Wilco decided he was better off without it after a while!

    Anyone know what the brands/models are?
    I'd bring gloves into the equation.
    Tip for newbies, always get your jacket zipped up before putting on full fingered gloves and/or frozen fingers.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • thejimmymethod
    thejimmymethod Posts: 458
    takethehighroad said:

    thejimmymethod said:

    curium99 said:

    pblakeney said:

    Kelderman...
    2. He couldn't zip up a jacket. Neither could Hindley.

    I’m surprised more hasn’t been made of the jackets the Sunweb riders used compared to the ones Ineos riders used. Wilco decided he was better off without it after a while!

    Anyone know what the brands/models are?
    Castelli for Ineos vs Craft for Sunweb
    Jai Hindley had the one provided to the White Jersey wearer by the Giro, so that will have been a different brand to Wilcoman
    Good point, in which case it likely was Castelli too as they are providing the jerseys.
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,451
    curium99 said:

    pblakeney said:

    Kelderman...
    2. He couldn't zip up a jacket. Neither could Hindley.

    I’m surprised more hasn’t been made of the jackets the Sunweb riders used compared to the ones Ineos riders used. Wilco decided he was better off without it after a while!

    Anyone know what the brands/models are?
    Agree, although it's not so much the brand as the design. Ineos were in flappier rain/wind jackets. Sunweb were in tighter fitting softshell gabba style jackets/jerseys, which would have been more aero but that is a moot point if they're impossible to get on and zip up!
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    DeVlaeminck said:

    Edit - just reading cycling news Kelderman says explicitly that had Hindley waited then his (Kelderman's) GC lead would be bigger but they wouldn't have 2 riders in with a chance - so I've got at least one person that agrees with me!

    Brian Smith agrees with you too. He reckoned Kelderman would probably have close to a minute on TGH in GC if Hindley had waited. If that were the case, given the relative TT skills of the 3, Kelderman would be looking much more comfortable in pink. For what it is worth, I think Sunweb made just about the right call but I can see arguments either way. It's certainly not as clear cut as some are making out.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    edited October 2020
    This is how things stand in the GC:

    1 2 ▲1 Kelderman Wilco Team Sunweb 20 77:46:56
    2 3 ▲1 Hindley Jai Team Sunweb 0:12
    3 4 ▲1 Geoghegan Hart Tao INEOS Grenadiers 0:15
    4 5 ▲1 Bilbao Pello Bahrain - McLaren 1:19
    5 1 ▼4 Almeida João Deceuninck - Quick Step 2:16

    And this is how some folks would prefer to see it, assuming that Hindley could actually have coaxed Kelderman to somehow tackle the final 15kms around 40 seconds faster, which is what the rest of us dispute:

    1 2 ▲1 Kelderman Wilco Team Sunweb 20 77:46:56
    2 4 ▲1 Geoghegan Hart Tao INEOS Grenadiers 0:55
    3 5 ▲2 Bilbao Pello Bahrain - McLaren 1:59
    4 1 ▼3 Almeida João Deceuninck - Quick Step 2:16
    5 3 ▼2 Hindley Jai Team Sunweb 2:41

    Thoughts anyone?


    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    My thoughts are there are different opinions in what Sunweb should have done and that's pro cycling.

    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,833
    Is there an argument that the Sunweb boys should have just stopped for 5 seconds to sort their jackets out?

    Not very pro I know, but getting chilled on a descent from over 2000m is no fun at all.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,227
    mrb123 said:

    Is there an argument that the Sunweb boys should have just stopped for 5 seconds to sort their jackets out?

    Not very pro I know, but getting chilled on a descent from over 2000m is no fun at all.

    Kelderman, absolutely. Hindley, no.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,444
    DeVlaeminck said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    DeVlaeminck said:



    The assumption that Tao held a reasonable amount back depends on him having significantly more left than the rest which is possible but not a given. He may have held 15-20 seconds worth back - my guess is Hindley could have saved Kelderman significantly more than that.

    Edit - just reading cycling news Kelderman says explicitly that had Hindley waited then his (Kelderman's) GC lead would be bigger but they wouldn't have 2 riders in with a chance - so I've got at least one person that agrees with me!

    Total guesswork.
    The assumption that Tao held a reasonable amount back is no different to the assumption that Kelderman could have upped his pace had Hindley been with him.

    In fact there is clear evidence that disputes this assumption: He could not hold Fuglsang's wheel, not even for a few seconds., at a time when Fuglsang was also struggling.
    So, the idea that he could somehow have saved a minute is pure fantasy.

    As for Kelderman endorsing Kelderman's ability to go faster................
    It's no more total guesswork than your statement that Hindley sitting on his wheel cost TGH more time than Kelderman would have gained had Hindley been with him.

    It's an opinion - of course it is none of us can rerun the race - but it's an opinion shared by Kelderman. If you really don't think Kelderman would have gone faster with Hindley with him well that just defies physics doesn't it.
    It's not Kelderman's opinion that they shouldn't have done it though - as per quote it means they still have 2 well placed GC riders. Just that it probably would have saved him some time.
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    blazing_saddles said:

    This is how things stand in the GC:

    1 2 ▲1 Kelderman Wilco Team Sunweb 20 77:46:56
    2 3 ▲1 Hindley Jai Team Sunweb 0:12
    3 4 ▲1 Geoghegan Hart Tao INEOS Grenadiers 0:15
    4 5 ▲1 Bilbao Pello Bahrain - McLaren 1:19
    5 1 ▼4 Almeida João Deceuninck - Quick Step 2:16

    And this is how some folks would prefer to see it, assuming that Hindley could actually have coaxed Kelderman to somehow tackle the final 15kms around 40 seconds faster, which is what the rest of us dispute:

    1 2 ▲1 Kelderman Wilco Team Sunweb 20 77:46:56
    2 4 ▲1 Geoghegan Hart Tao INEOS Grenadiers 0:55
    3 5 ▲2 Bilbao Pello Bahrain - McLaren 1:59
    4 1 ▼3 Almeida João Deceuninck - Quick Step 2:16
    5 3 ▼2 Hindley Jai Team Sunweb 2:58

    Thoughts anyone?


    Assuming* the TT ends up with something like TGH 20 seconds down on Kelderman and Hindley 20 seconds down on TGH, TGH needs to take 35 seconds out of Kelderman and match Hindley on Saturday to deny Sunweb. In the second scenario he needs to put a minute and fifteen into Kelderman. Hindley is probably an irrelevance n this scenario.

    I'd say it is pretty even. One factor that nobody has mentioned is the fact that Hindley has another year (at least) at Sunweb whereas Kelderman is off to Bora next year. Don't now whether the DS's might have taken that into consideration.

    *(big assumption but reasonable guess based on history)
  • davep1
    davep1 Posts: 837
    mrb123 said:

    Is there an argument that the Sunweb boys should have just stopped for 5 seconds to sort their jackets out?

    Not very pro I know, but getting chilled on a descent from over 2000m is no fun at all.

    I descended that way in August 2019, it was 6 degrees. I had dressed for summer, thinking that sweating my way up the Stelvio for getting on 2.5 hours meant I wouldn't want any "excess" clothing. I froze my nuts off coming down, my teeth were chattering and it was getting harder to haul the anchors on enough for the bloody hairpins. At least I had dry and empty roads on my side - it was Stelvio Day.

    I love the highlights show, but why can't it be two hours minimum? I don't want any background chat, none of the set up before and summary after that probably takes up 20% of airtime (never mind the ads!) just show me the riders and the scenery!
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    bobmcstuff said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    DeVlaeminck said:



    The assumption that Tao held a reasonable amount back depends on him having significantly more left than the rest which is possible but not a given. He may have held 15-20 seconds worth back - my guess is Hindley could have saved Kelderman significantly more than that.

    Edit - just reading cycling news Kelderman says explicitly that had Hindley waited then his (Kelderman's) GC lead would be bigger but they wouldn't have 2 riders in with a chance - so I've got at least one person that agrees with me!

    Total guesswork.
    The assumption that Tao held a reasonable amount back is no different to the assumption that Kelderman could have upped his pace had Hindley been with him.

    In fact there is clear evidence that disputes this assumption: He could not hold Fuglsang's wheel, not even for a few seconds., at a time when Fuglsang was also struggling.
    So, the idea that he could somehow have saved a minute is pure fantasy.

    As for Kelderman endorsing Kelderman's ability to go faster................
    It's no more total guesswork than your statement that Hindley sitting on his wheel cost TGH more time than Kelderman would have gained had Hindley been with him.

    It's an opinion - of course it is none of us can rerun the race - but it's an opinion shared by Kelderman. If you really don't think Kelderman would have gone faster with Hindley with him well that just defies physics doesn't it.
    It's not Kelderman's opinion that they shouldn't have done it though - as per quote it means they still have 2 well placed GC riders. Just that it probably would have saved him some time.
    Sorry not sure what point you are making? It *is* Kelderman's opinion that Hindley should have waited - he's repeated that today.

    I suspect the outcome would have been Kelderman with larger lead and Hindley still on the podium but out of contention for the win - again just an opinion.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    DeVlaeminck said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    DeVlaeminck said:

    blazing_saddles said:

    DeVlaeminck said:



    The assumption that Tao held a reasonable amount back depends on him having significantly more left than the rest which is possible but not a given. He may have held 15-20 seconds worth back - my guess is Hindley could have saved Kelderman significantly more than that.

    Edit - just reading cycling news Kelderman says explicitly that had Hindley waited then his (Kelderman's) GC lead would be bigger but they wouldn't have 2 riders in with a chance - so I've got at least one person that agrees with me!

    Total guesswork.
    The assumption that Tao held a reasonable amount back is no different to the assumption that Kelderman could have upped his pace had Hindley been with him.

    In fact there is clear evidence that disputes this assumption: He could not hold Fuglsang's wheel, not even for a few seconds., at a time when Fuglsang was also struggling.
    So, the idea that he could somehow have saved a minute is pure fantasy.

    As for Kelderman endorsing Kelderman's ability to go faster................
    It's no more total guesswork than your statement that Hindley sitting on his wheel cost TGH more time than Kelderman would have gained had Hindley been with him.

    It's an opinion - of course it is none of us can rerun the race - but it's an opinion shared by Kelderman. If you really don't think Kelderman would have gone faster with Hindley with him well that just defies physics doesn't it.
    It's not Kelderman's opinion that they shouldn't have done it though - as per quote it means they still have 2 well placed GC riders. Just that it probably would have saved him some time.
    Sorry not sure what point you are making? It *is* Kelderman's opinion that Hindley should have waited - he's repeated that today.

    I suspect the outcome would have been Kelderman with larger lead and Hindley still on the podium but out of contention for the win - again just an opinion.
    Not sure how you can reach the conclusion that Hindley would make the podium.

    As I pointed out above, he would sit in 5th place at a guesstimated a minute off the podium, but with two much better time trialists filling those spots.

    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    He "would" sit in 5th place !!

    If you want my reasoning I think most likely together Hindley and Kelderman limit their losses on the Stelvio by maybe 10 seconds, so a deficit of 30, descend as fast as the Ineos pair on the descent so arrive on the flat ~30 seconds behind. Then working together to the finish lose maybe another 30 seconds. And come in a minute down on TGH. The benefit of doing turns over being in the wind non stop is pretty big - it's why TGH didn't drop Dennis on the Stelvio.

    Tbh though my focus would be on maintaining Kelderman's lead not racing for third. Those who say it's hindsight and Kelderman could have lost more time - exactly - what if he had shipped another minute - Ineos would now be odds on to win the Giro.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeadCalm
    DeadCalm Posts: 4,249
    DeVlaeminck said:

    He "would" sit in 5th place !!

    If you want my reasoning I think most likely together Hindley and Kelderman limit their losses on the Stelvio by maybe 10 seconds, so a deficit of 30, descend as fast as the Ineos pair on the descent so arrive on the flat ~30 seconds behind. Then working together to the finish lose maybe another 30 seconds. And come in a minute down on TGH. The benefit of doing turns over being in the wind non stop is pretty big - it's why TGH didn't drop Dennis on the Stelvio.

    Tbh though my focus would be on maintaining Kelderman's lead not racing for third. Those who say it's hindsight and Kelderman could have lost more time - exactly - what if he had shipped another minute - Ineos would now be odds on to win the Giro.

    Brian Smith making the same argument in commentary just now.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    I mean it's all opinion isn't it. I agree with Blazing that the purpose of sending Hindley on was at least as much as an anchor as keeping him up in the GC.

    None of us will ever know what might have happened just as nobody knew for sure how much the riders had left in the tank when the decisions were made.

    When I said I didn't understand the Sunweb tactics it would have been more accurate to say I disagreed with them but it's an argument where neither side can be sure they are right.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    There are no right and wrong tactics. Just tactics that work and tactics that don't. We'll know on Sunday which this was
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    edited October 2020
    DeVlaeminck said:

    I mean it's all opinion isn't it. I agree with Blazing that the purpose of sending Hindley on was at least as much as an anchor as keeping him up in the GC.

    None of us will ever know what might have happened just as nobody knew for sure how much the riders had left in the tank when the decisions were made.

    When I said I didn't understand the Sunweb tactics it would have been more accurate to say I disagreed with them but it's an argument where neither side can be sure they are right.

    We have been at cross purposes a bit.

    I felt at the time Kelderman lost the wheel for the first time Sunweb on the Stelvio, that if they had knocked it back then, maybe they could have saved quite bit of time.
    A bit of anticipation here might have been handy.
    But the race and the debate moved onto the jacket debacle and what happened in the valley and final climb.


    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    edited October 2020
    DeVlaeminck said:

    He "would" sit in 5th place !!

    If you want my reasoning I think most likely together Hindley and Kelderman limit their losses on the Stelvio by maybe 10 seconds, so a deficit of 30, descend as fast as the Ineos pair on the descent so arrive on the flat ~30 seconds behind. Then working together to the finish lose maybe another 30 seconds. And come in a minute down on TGH. The benefit of doing turns over being in the wind non stop is pretty big - it's why TGH didn't drop Dennis on the Stelvio.

    Tbh though my focus would be on maintaining Kelderman's lead not racing for third. Those who say it's hindsight and Kelderman could have lost more time - exactly - what if he had shipped another minute - Ineos would now be odds on to win the Giro.

    From memory Kelderman maintained, or possibly reduced, the gap on the descent so I'm not sure having Hindley with him would have helped make anything back there. I'm also dubious that he would have reduced his losses on the remainder of the Stelvio. The only place it may have helped was on the flat where Dennis really helped open the gap but that was the point where Kelderman was really struggling so I'm not sure he could have ridden any faster. As you say, it's only opinion but if I was a DS picking which of the two had the better chance when Kelderman was first dropped I would have gone with Hindley. It looked like Kelderman was going to lose more than he did and if it had started to go that way Hindley was in a position to potentially attack on the final climb to try to get a bigger lead over Tao.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,444
    edited October 2020
    There wasn't a huge amount of flat was there, 8kish looking at the profile? Was not far off a descent into a climb. Being on your own on a steepish descent is probably better as you have complete freedom in line choice, not that being in a group of 3 is going to make a big difference.

    Although having Dennis, former multiple TT world champion, for 8k on the flat is a pretty good advantage...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    edited October 2020
    bobmcstuff said:

    There wasn't a huge amount of flat was there, 8kish looking at the profile? Was not far off a descent into a climb. Being on your own on a steepish descent is probably better as you have complete freedom in line choice, not that being in a group of 3 is going to make a big difference.

    Although having Dennis, former multiple TT world champion, for 8k on the flat is a pretty good advantage...


    Kelderman lost about 45 seconds on that 8km section
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Matti66
    Matti66 Posts: 190
    Its hard to from my uninformed position ,not see how TGH doesn't climb faster on his own and maybe a lot faster that final mountain . Plus get a handy 10 seconds .
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    With the tactic Sunweb chose, Hindley could mark Tao. If Kelderman kept losses reasonable then he could just sit there and claim the bonus at the finish (as happened). He didn't need to attack and didn't do so as that could have put Kelderman in even more trouble. On the other hand, if Kelderman had seriously blown up, Hindley would be on Tao's wheel, with the possibility of attacking from further out and making it a one on one fight - having got a tow for most of the ride.

    If he'd waited for Kelderman then he might have saved Kelderman time, but Tao would have been free to really go for it and if Kelderman had blown then they were both out of contention.

    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,444
    RichN95. said:

    bobmcstuff said:

    There wasn't a huge amount of flat was there, 8kish looking at the profile? Was not far off a descent into a climb. Being on your own on a steepish descent is probably better as you have complete freedom in line choice, not that being in a group of 3 is going to make a big difference.

    Although having Dennis, former multiple TT world champion, for 8k on the flat is a pretty good advantage...


    Kelderman lost about 45 seconds on that 8km section
    Yeah, fair. I guess the unanswerable question is how much would Hindley (not exactly a rouleur) really have helped against Dennis.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,575
    No-one seems to consider what Hindley would've done when asked to drop back.

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