TDF 2020 - Stage 12: Chauvigny - Sarran Corrèze 218 km *Spoilers*

mididoctors

Baby Spartacus

mididoctors

I like posting baby Spartacus almost as much as mega jumbo

jimmyjams

Pross said:

jimmyjams said:

jimmyjams said:

blazing_saddles said:

bobmcstuff said:

Those official ratings quoted in OP - what has Cees Bol done to deserve equal star ranking with the other two?? Or was it done before the race...

Since the race hasn't been raced yet, it was done before the race.

Allegedly he much prefers an uphill sprint and given Sunweb have been producing by far the best lead out, but not necessarily at the right time.....

It would be nice if somebody posted their alternative list occasionally, if they have any particular thoughts.
Especially in the stages to follow, which are much more open.
I'm only guessing here.

I thought I'd give this a go, and yesterday evening came up with 9 names.
This morning, seeing Blazing had provided 13 names, I upgraded some of my original selections and added 4 names, so I too provide 13 names. We have 5 in common.

*** Greg van Avermaet, Marc Hirschi, Thomas de Gendt, Alexey Lutsenko
** Sergio Higuita, Alberto Bettiol, Jasper Stuyven, Søren Kragh Andersen, Julian Alaphilippe
* Damiano Caruso, David Gaudu, Daniel Martinez, Jesus Herrada

(That part of Correze, from Sarran east, is one of my favourite, simpler, areas of France)

Hirschi 1st
Kragh Andersen 3rd
Herrada 5th

We'll pretend we haven't seen Higuita on the list

Not keen on Higuita? Yes he came in 82nd at 9+ mins, but actually Bettiol was my most 'out' prediction; he came in 135th at 19+ mins.

Blazing S. managed to predict 4 who placed worse than Higuita, 2 of whom ended up even behind Bettiol, namely Cavagna and Cousin, at 26+ mins in the Sprinter-Gruppetto (although maybe including Cousin in his selection was a bit tongue-in-cheek?)

I'm looking forward to see mididoctors' predictions – sounds like he's up for it.
So long as he can come up with one other possible name.

mididoctors

I have been useless this tour off my game ...

jimmyjams

When Sunweb signed Hirschi in Autumn 2018, it was said his role would be as one of Dumoulin's main helpers (i.e. much more than just a team member/domestique). But 12 months later, Dumoulin decided to go elsewhere.

I wonder (a) whether Hirschi would have got the opportunities to go for a win 3 times during the last couple of weeks, had Dumoulin stayed, and (b) whether Sunweb recognised early on what/whom they had, and thus had no problem about losing Dumoulin.
Anybody have any idea, esp about (b)?

RichN95.

jimmyjams said:

When Sunweb signed Hirschi in Autumn 2018, it was said his role would be as one of Dumoulin's main helpers (i.e. much more than just a team member/domestique). But 12 months later, Dumoulin decided to go elsewhere.

I wonder (a) whether Hirschi would have got the opportunities to go for a win 3 times during the last couple of weeks, had Dumoulin stayed, and (b) whether Sunweb recognised early on what/whom they had, and thus had no problem about losing Dumoulin.
Anybody have any idea, esp about (b)?

Maybe not in the Tour. The comparison to make here would be Kwaitkowski, who wins races elsewhere, but never contends at the Tour. Or maybe it would have been like Van Aert at this Tour.

mrb123

Just been watching the highlights.

When Hirschi was in his TT style position was he actually holding on to his bike GPS head unit at times?

Seems like a chunky head unit with a long mount could actually serve as a makeshift aero bar. Must give an advantage over just resting forearms on the bar tops.

webboo

Maybe he’s just very short sighted and needs to do that in order to read it.

Lanterne_Rogue

mrb123 said:

Just been watching the highlights.

When Hirschi was in his TT style position was he actually holding on to his bike GPS head unit at times?

Seems like a chunky head unit with a long mount could actually serve as a makeshift aero bar. Must give an advantage over just resting forearms on the bar tops.

Yeah, it got picked up on during Sunday's stage as well - he certainly seems to use it to stabilise his front end, although he presumably can't apply too much force to it.

Pross

jimmyjams said:

Pross said:

jimmyjams said:

jimmyjams said:

blazing_saddles said:

bobmcstuff said:

Those official ratings quoted in OP - what has Cees Bol done to deserve equal star ranking with the other two?? Or was it done before the race...

Since the race hasn't been raced yet, it was done before the race.

Allegedly he much prefers an uphill sprint and given Sunweb have been producing by far the best lead out, but not necessarily at the right time.....

It would be nice if somebody posted their alternative list occasionally, if they have any particular thoughts.
Especially in the stages to follow, which are much more open.
I'm only guessing here.

I thought I'd give this a go, and yesterday evening came up with 9 names.
This morning, seeing Blazing had provided 13 names, I upgraded some of my original selections and added 4 names, so I too provide 13 names. We have 5 in common.

*** Greg van Avermaet, Marc Hirschi, Thomas de Gendt, Alexey Lutsenko
** Sergio Higuita, Alberto Bettiol, Jasper Stuyven, Søren Kragh Andersen, Julian Alaphilippe
* Damiano Caruso, David Gaudu, Daniel Martinez, Jesus Herrada

(That part of Correze, from Sarran east, is one of my favourite, simpler, areas of France)

Hirschi 1st
Kragh Andersen 3rd
Herrada 5th

We'll pretend we haven't seen Higuita on the list

Not keen on Higuita? Yes he came in 82nd at 9+ mins, but actually Bettiol was my most 'out' prediction; he came in 135th at 19+ mins.

Blazing S. managed to predict 4 who placed worse than Higuita, 2 of whom ended up even behind Bettiol, namely Cavagna and Cousin, at 26+ mins in the Sprinter-Gruppetto (although maybe including Cousin in his selection was a bit tongue-in-cheek?)

I'm looking forward to see mididoctors' predictions – sounds like he's up for it.
So long as he can come up with one other possible name.

Nah, it was more I noticed Higuita disappearing out the back (seems to be the only time I notice him in the race).

50x11

mrb123 said:

Just been watching the highlights.

When Hirschi was in his TT style position was he actually holding on to his bike GPS head unit at times?

Seems like a chunky head unit with a long mount could actually serve as a makeshift aero bar. Must give an advantage over just resting forearms on the bar tops.

I remember years ago Digger was accusing Wiggins of this saying it was cheating.

gsk82

50x11 said:

mrb123 said:

Just been watching the highlights.

When Hirschi was in his TT style position was he actually holding on to his bike GPS head unit at times?

Seems like a chunky head unit with a long mount could actually serve as a makeshift aero bar. Must give an advantage over just resting forearms on the bar tops.

I remember years ago Digger was accusing Wiggins of this saying it was cheating.

I suspect it is cheating. You can't use aero bars, so I'd assume you can't use something else as aero bars either

Pross

I suspect there will be a crack down on it at some point. The only reason for the brackets being so long appears to be for this use.

DeadCalm

jimmyjams said:

When Sunweb signed Hirschi in Autumn 2018, it was said his role would be as one of Dumoulin's main helpers (i.e. much more than just a team member/domestique). But 12 months later, Dumoulin decided to go elsewhere.

I wonder (a) whether Hirschi would have got the opportunities to go for a win 3 times during the last couple of weeks, had Dumoulin stayed, and (b) whether Sunweb recognised early on what/whom they had, and thus had no problem about losing Dumoulin.
Anybody have any idea, esp about (b)?

Hirschi rode for the Sunweb development team so they probably had a good idea of his potential. Even before Dumoulin left there was a strong investment in developing young riders. They have a ridiculously young and talented squad and are quickly becoming my favourite non-French team.

https://www.velonews.com/news/team-sunweb-bidding-on-future-in-face-of-leadership-vacuum/

DeadCalm

Watched the ITV highlight show to see if the quality of the commentary could justify switching from GCN, despite the annoying adverts. The first thing I heard was Ned Boulting expressing surprise that Cavagna was off the back so soon, despite the fact that right next to Cavagna was a guy in a bright green jersey. I did really like Millar's insightful commentary though.

blazing_saddles

DeadCalm said:

Watched the ITV highlight show to see if the quality of the commentary could justify switching from GCN, despite the annoying adverts. The first thing I heard was Ned Boulting expressing surprise that Cavagna was off the back so soon, despite the fact that right next to Cavagna was a guy in a bright green jersey. I did really like Millar's insightful commentary though.

I have come to the conclusion that Boulting is next to useless, only marginally better than Kirby. He's terrible at rider recognition and shaky on tactics.
Millar is the difference between ITV and Eurosport.

shirley_basso

Millar yesterday was brilliant - especially to the casual observer.

I try to follow the who's who - but tbh I rarely know any more than the 'household' names (if there is such a thing) such as the top GC riders, Ineos team, top sprinters and a few others.

What Millar is really good at is explaining what it's like for each individual rider, whoever they are, at that specific point - which is really good.

Specifically:
- When breaks are trying to form but no getting away - who's who and why it's so annoying and why people are holding back and why others are going for it
- Why the break is taking so long to get away, and what that could mean for the rest of the race
- What it means to have long straight roads vs twisty turny ones (from a motivation but also effort perspective) if you are a lone rider out front, which was interesting given I also watched Sunday's stage where the roads were long, wide and straight
- The 2nd group in the final 2K - what it's actually like to be in it when it's a lost cause
- Alaphillpe's chase to get back on yesterday and his frustrations and then throwing his bike around, then just rolling in - was something even wrong?


He got some stick when he first started for being bit dour but I really rate the content.

DeadCalm

shirley_basso said:

Millar yesterday was brilliant - especially to the casual observer.

I try to follow the who's who - but tbh I rarely know any more than the 'household' names (if there is such a thing) such as the top GC riders, Ineos team, top sprinters and a few others.

What Millar is really good at is explaining what it's like for each individual rider, whoever they are, at that specific point - which is really good.

Specifically:
- When breaks are trying to form but no getting away - who's who and why it's so annoying and why people are holding back and why others are going for it
- Why the break is taking so long to get away, and what that could mean for the rest of the race
- What it means to have long straight roads vs twisty turny ones (from a motivation but also effort perspective) if you are a lone rider out front, which was interesting given I also watched Sunday's stage where the roads were long, wide and straight
- The 2nd group in the final 2K - what it's actually like to be in it when it's a lost cause
- Alaphillpe's chase to get back on yesterday and his frustrations and then throwing his bike around, then just rolling in - was something even wrong?


He got some stick when he first started for being bit dour but I really rate the content.

That was particularly brilliant. In fairness, Brian Smith called the tactics similarly to Millar, but somehow it didnt have the same resonance.

Lanterne_Rogue

blazing_saddles said:

DeadCalm said:

Watched the ITV highlight show to see if the quality of the commentary could justify switching from GCN, despite the annoying adverts. The first thing I heard was Ned Boulting expressing surprise that Cavagna was off the back so soon, despite the fact that right next to Cavagna was a guy in a bright green jersey. I did really like Millar's insightful commentary though.

I have come to the conclusion that Boulting is next to useless, only marginally better than Kirby. He's terrible at rider recognition and shaky on tactics.
Millar is the difference between ITV and Eurosport.

I was thinking about this a couple of days ago. Although I like ITV rotating the voices around, I don't think it suits Boulting particularly - he's not been as 'on it' as previous seasons. I wonder if doing shorter stints means that he's simply not watching as much of the peloton as closely and for as long as normal, so he's not as clued in to individual riders' characteristics. They're also not in France and people who would normally be buzzing around the Tour getting stories (Rendell) or at the finish line studio (Boardman, Kennaugh) are in and out of the commentary booth all day. Maybe something about that atmosphere means he's just not as immersed as normal? It means he's not chatting to other commentators, for one thing, and who knows how much info that helps pass around about which riders are likely to be involved etc?

Conversely Eurosport are pulling the same stunt and - whisper it - Kirby seems less annoying this year. Maybe it's just relief at there being a Tour, but I suspect the noise to signal ratio is improved as it's spread across two hours instead of four.

Millar's rider recognition skill, btw, is getting noticeably worse (though still better than anyone else on either team) as the riders he rode with retire from the peloton. There's nobody better though for talking about tactics or for just getting excited when the race blows to pieces and everybody's tactics are in bits - if Millar's voice picks up you know something is on.

rick_chasey

I think a lot of it is to do with the fact that there hasn't been the usual amount of pro-racing to watch.

Pross

I think the difference between Boulting and Kirby is that he will acknowledge his mistakes rather than sticking with them and compounding them and he doesn't make a joke that, on occasion, is mildly amusing first time and then repeat it constantly.

He also doesn't have a select group of riders he has given his own nicknames to and who he tips as a possible winner of every race even when their history of results shows they hardly win a thing.

takethehighroad

Kirby is getting a lot better at rider recognition tbf. I mean, he couldn't get worse, but a few times he's identified a rider before ITV do (when rewatching the highlights later).

The main irritant for Kirby, though, is as said above, he is non stop. It's just stream of consciousness stuff that comes off the top of his head, and his nicknames for riders that very much grate.

I felt sorry for Matt Stephens in the Dauphine when Carlton had said "Lenny" Kamna that much he had to call him that too.

I think someone's told him not to call him "Chase" Benoot though, which is a good thing. "It's Chase leading the chase" was heinous

ddraver

I've made it clear that I'm a big fan of ITV this tour.

However, Ned needs to learn to not guess a rider but just say, "a Sunweb rider attacks on the right".

No where is this more clear than in the last 200m of the stage when he just sprays names around. No one can tell whose won apart from the magic camera so just say, "FOUR ACROSS THE ROAD, BENNET, EWAN, SAGAN!"

(they cross the line)

"SAGAN RAISES HIS HANDS, BUT EWAN WAs Very close..."

(When watching some old clips recently, I noticed Phil Ligget, for his sins, was very good at this)

When I'm spending a lot of time listening to the commentary rather than watching cos work, Carlton giving it the, "HE LIFTS THE BOTTLE TO HIS LIPS, TAKES A SIP AND RETURNS IT TO THE CAGE, WOOOOOWWWW HOW ABOUT THAT SEAN!!!!!” is just maddening...